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Posted: 2/7/2020 4:07:11 PM EDT
[#1]
I would imo go Harris filmed over L3 filmed WP
Not sure about the price, but between the two I like the Harris(Elbit) over the Harris/L3 THIN FILMED just due to higher SNR that I have seen. |
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Posted: 2/7/2020 6:48:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
2) say I went with the L3 thin filmed, why is there over a thousand dollar price difference between dealers for the same setup? Of course it could simply be different margins, different deals structured with suppliers, or any combination of these factors. ~Augee |
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Posted: 2/7/2020 9:11:11 PM EDT
[#3]
I kind of lurk in the shadows now but here is my 2 cents. Harris (ITT) or whoever they are now were once the kings. Sadly they have lost ground to L3 filmless and thin filmed tubes. Dealers get called all the time for special deals from suppliers on tubes that are low quality. Many dealers jump on these to make a quick buck.
Sadly, we are in a age where price is all that matters to most. Things are cheap for a reason. Lower specs or blemishes all contribute to this. Most don't understand this and look for lowest cost. Low cost is usually low quality. Not all the time but certainly most of the time. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 12:46:42 AM EDT
[#4]
I’ll chime in.
For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance. L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation. Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way. I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 1:24:30 AM EDT
[#5]
I would personally take Harris due to the significantly higher specs you’ll get. The L3 thin films are fine tubes but the specs just aren’t there. At some level, specs are just numbers and the L3 tubes look good which is mostly all that matters. But the Harris have the edge in performance and significantly higher specs which would translate to them keeping their value longer. The L3’s will probably be cleaned in terms of blems but not guaranteed.
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Posted: 2/8/2020 9:18:00 AM EDT
[#6]
Harris/Elbit White Phosphor High Performance tubes in BNVD SG, 32 SN 
L3 filmless WP tubes in UL BNVD SG 35 SN Same night, same camera nothing changed, pics about a minute or so apart- time necessary to change the iphone adapter. Note the L3 tubes in this example have higher SN numbers. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 9:26:21 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/HarrisBNVD-1226983.jpg Harris/Elbit White Phosphor High Performance tubes in BNVD SG, 32 SN https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/l3UL-1226982.jpg L3 filmless WP tubes in UL BNVD SG 35 SN Same night, same camera nothing changed, pics about a minute or so apart- time necessary to change the iphone adapter. Note the L3 tubes in this example have higher SN numbers. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 9:33:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/HarrisBNVD-1226983.jpg Harris/Elbit White Phosphor High Performance tubes in BNVD SG, 32 SN https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/l3UL-1226982.jpg L3 filmless WP tubes in UL BNVD SG 35 SN Same night, same camera nothing changed, pics about a minute or so apart- time necessary to change the iphone adapter. Note the L3 tubes in this example have higher SN numbers. |
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Posted: 2/8/2020 12:36:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn Robert! Sell me that UL BNVD SG with the L3s at 35! |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 5:08:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ll chime in. For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance. L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation. Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way. I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much. |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 5:54:51 PM EDT
[#11]
There’s no free lunch - I agree the filmed L3 tubes have better screen aesthetics and usually less peppering or small (mainly) inconsequential blems.
Lately I have been seeing some ridiculous Harris/Elbit specs on their thin filmed WP tubes, contrast by the very low L3 filmed WP tube specs, I’d probably recommend Harris for most people. There is a place for the L3 filmed tubes however but they’d be way easier to sell if they cost less (but they don’t). |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 7:06:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There’s no free lunch - I agree the filmed L3 tubes have better screen aesthetics and usually less peppering or small (mainly) inconsequential blems. Lately I have been seeing some ridiculous Harris/Elbit specs on their thin filmed WP tubes, contrast by the very low L3 filmed WP tube specs, I’d probably recommend Harris for most people. There is a place for the L3 filmed tubes however but they’d be way easier to sell if they cost less (but they don’t). |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 8:02:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ll chime in. For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance. L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation. Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way. I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much. |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 11:02:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you consider ridiculous? About a week ago I inquired someplace (will not be named and no one involved in this forum) about Elbit WP tubes and they couldn't match the specs I was looking for which weren't anywhere near ridiculous. For tubes that cost what these do that is pretty impressive. Granted they aren’t all this high, but I’m seeing them more and more. |
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Posted: 2/10/2020 11:09:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the past month and a half I have seen a 2700 FOM and a 2500 FOM unit with EBI and Halos well under 1.0, with photocathode response of 2400. For tubes that cost what these do that is pretty impressive. Granted they aren’t all this high, but I’m seeing them more and more. |
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Posted: 2/11/2020 10:24:23 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice numbers. How’s the spot spec? |
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Posted: 2/11/2020 11:52:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This! Harris tubes in my experience are always riddled with pepper specs if you look really closely. L3 filmed tubes seam to be slightly dimmer but they’re more soothing to my eyes for some reason. And the L3 autogating is way quieter. |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 9:07:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The newer production Everest tubes don’t have any autogating audible noises in my experience |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 9:35:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to be a smartass, but what are Everest tubes? I'm trying to decide between the same tubes as the OP is inquiring about. |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 10:36:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It’s their programmable power supply. The previous was Pinnacle. I believe all of them are now Everest but I’m not 100% Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Not trying to be a smartass, but what are Everest tubes? I'm trying to decide between the same tubes as the OP is inquiring about. |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 10:40:56 AM EDT
[#21]
So the current pvs14s being sold as pinnacles are "older" generation harris? All the videos I've seen on youtube have shown harris pvs14s to be more audible than l3.
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Posted: 2/12/2020 10:41:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everest is a generation of tubes they are offering that follows the previous pinnacle ones |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 10:57:52 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right. Isn’t the key difference the power supply? It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth 
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Posted: 2/12/2020 11:05:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the height. Don’t forget the height. It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 11:32:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the height. Don’t forget the height. It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Right. Isn’t the key difference the power supply? It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth 
I have an older vii high spec pinnacle no noise from power supply but have been wanting to upgrade to the wp. But unless specs are much better (72Ip 27.8sn current tube )I can’t justify the $$. |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 11:50:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SOLD
I have an older vii high spec pinnacle no noise from power supply but have been wanting to upgrade to the wp. But unless specs are much better (72Ip 27.8sn current tube )I can’t justify the $$. Specs- every unit is different but most WP HP+ models (on sale right now ) are shipping with at least 27 SN or higher.
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Posted: 2/12/2020 12:46:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah it's been years since I've seen or heard of a really noisy one. Now we get paranoid people thinking because they did not hear a loud humming that the unit isn't autogated.... I tell them they should be happy the autogating is quiet! Specs- every unit is different but most WP HP+ models (on sale right now ) are shipping with at least 27 SN or higher.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: SOLD
I have an older vii high spec pinnacle no noise from power supply but have been wanting to upgrade to the wp. But unless specs are much better (72Ip 27.8sn current tube )I can’t justify the $$. Specs- every unit is different but most WP HP+ models (on sale right now ) are shipping with at least 27 SN or higher. |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Here’s a quick video I shot of two satellites that were really close together, you have to look kind of close to see them. The tube was a Harris with an Everest power supply, that whining sound if you turn the volume up is coming from the tube. It sounds a lot louder in the video than it does in actual real life but it definitely makes noise.
 Satellites |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 9:48:32 PM EDT
[#29]
First off I’ve been lurking for far too long, and I’m glad I can finally contribute to the conversation. I have an RNVG with Elbit white phosphor F9400XLSH tubes that I just bought, and they are incredible. The FOM is stupid high, and most of the specs are as good, if not better than the majority of filmless tubes I’ve seen, except EBI. Also these particular tubes are as quiet as my two L3 Omni 8 tubes. This is my experience with Elbit/Harris WP tubes, and I’m very happy with them.
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Posted: 2/13/2020 1:30:50 PM EDT
[#30]
What kind of specs we talking about?
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Posted: 2/13/2020 2:24:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What kind of specs we talking about? ETA: fixed typo above |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 2:59:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't answer for him but some on IG told me his XLSH WP equipped DTNVG were 81 res, 37 snr, 69k gain, one tube 2297 PS, and the other 2630. Didn't give EBI. On IG another reseller posted a 3,000 FOM XLSH WP. The pictures though to my eyes still looked how I'd expect thin filmed to appear compared to filmless, which is slightly hazy you know what I mean. It didn't look the same as what I'd expect from a 3000 or less FOM filmless tube. Could be the phone, I don't know. |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 3:50:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First off I’ve been lurking for far too long, and I’m glad I can finally contribute to the conversation. I have an RNVG with Elbit white phosphor F9400XLSH tubes that I just bought, and they are incredible. The FOM is stupid high, and most of the specs are as good, if not better than the majority of filmless tubes I’ve seen, except EBI. Also these particular tubes are as quiet as my two L3 Omni 8 tubes. This is my experience with Elbit/Harris WP tubes, and I’m very happy with them. Where did you buy your RNVG at? I’m slowly getting back in the Nods groove
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Posted: 2/13/2020 4:33:48 PM EDT
[#34]
The tubes Will is talking about are my tubes. Most of the green tubes I’ve had, have had that dirty/ hazy look to them. These don’t seem to be the same way, and are very clear.
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Posted: 2/13/2020 5:00:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its true the phone pics never do a Tube justice, but if you ever want to see what a 3000 FOM unfilmed tube looks like come to a Greenline class and you can borrow my DTNVG's for a night. Should of never sold it 
What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units? @TNVC_Sam |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 5:15:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My last L3 WP unfilmed unit from you guys was a 39.4 SNR for 2,836 FOM. Should of never sold it
What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units? @TNVC_Sam |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 6:08:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My last L3 WP unfilmed unit from you guys was a 39.4 SNR for 2,836 FOM. Should of never sold it
What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units? @TNVC_Sam Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Its true the phone pics never do a Tube justice, but if you ever want to see what a 3000 FOM unfilmed tube looks like come to a Greenline class and you can borrow my DTNVG's for a night. Should of never sold it
What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units? @TNVC_Sam 
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Posted: 2/13/2020 7:22:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The tubes Will is talking about are my tubes. Most of the green tubes I’ve had, have had that dirty/ hazy look to them. These don’t seem to be the same way, and are very clear. |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 7:35:34 PM EDT
[#39]
I paid less than $2400 per tube. Both of the tubes have one small blemish in zone 2, but I was willing to live with that for the specs to money ratio. I’ll try to get some photos up in the next couple of days.
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Posted: 2/13/2020 7:46:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I paid less than $2400 per tube. Both of the tubes have one small blemish in zone 2, but I was willing to live with that for the specs to money ratio. I’ll try to get some photos up in the next couple of days. |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 8:02:55 PM EDT
[#41]
I bought mine from HEAT. It’s a long story but originally I just bought the tubes and was going to have them built with a RNVG housing and glass I already had. However my housing was one of the defective AA housings that wouldn’t run Harris/Elbit tubes. Fast forward a few weeks and I ended getting a new housing and new glass to have a 100% new unit. I highly recommend them, they treated me very well.
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Posted: 2/13/2020 8:23:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Nice. As long as they don’t have Cyrillic on them
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Posted: 2/13/2020 8:32:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Lol, you have to be careful out there. Btw, thanks JW for the work you did on the Illuminator video. I need some MAWL in my life
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Posted: 2/14/2020 9:51:06 AM EDT
[#44]
One thing that may happen, it appears to potentially be happening is as follows.
With the HarrisL3 merger and Harris selling their tube production Facility in Roanoke VA to Elbit, Elbit has a strong reputation in the past of reinvesting and funding new research and development with its holdings in the past. At least it has done this over seas in Israel. So fast forward to a few months after the Merger and Elbit is spitting out some great looking tubes at least on paper. They appear to be as good or almost as good as the Harris L3 unfilmed systems. With a slightly lower price point, HarrisL3 is going to have to continue to up their game which they have been, they will crack the code on 81 lpmm and it will be the new standard in a year or two if my guess is correct, and it may force a price point change, that could either be Elbit increasing prices or HarrisL3 lowering theirs but I dont think that will happpen. Ultimately the end user will benefit from these advances in thin filmed tech especially the Marine Corps, as they've decided upon their New goggles and tubes from Elbit. Ive always though ITT/Excelis/Harris/Elbit made great thin filmed tubes, I'd love them to continue to get better and better. It only forces these companies to put out better product for the military and to us consumers. |
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Posted: 2/14/2020 10:25:53 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My last L3 WP unfilmed unit from you guys was a 39.4 SNR for 2,836 FOM. Should of never sold it
What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units? @TNVC_Sam |
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Posted: 2/14/2020 10:38:23 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would literally shit my pants if I order my RNVG's from TNVC and had a pair of those tubes lol 
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:34:01 PM EDT
[#47]
https://imgur.com/gallery/J6MkE8z
Went out to snap a few pics. I’m definitely not as good at it as JW. Taken with IPhone 11 |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:55:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://imgur.com/gallery/J6MkE8z Went out to snap a few pics. I’m definitely not as good at it as JW. Taken with IPhone 11 |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 10:07:01 PM EDT
[#49]
I think it’s worth living with. They don’t bother me, and aren’t noticeable when actually using them. I’m definitely happy with them for the price. I was talking to a guy that had a similar tube that was completely clean, and he wanted a thousand more than I paid for one of mine.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 10:14:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it’s worth living with. They don’t bother me, and aren’t noticeable when actually using them. I’m definitely happy with them for the price. I was talking to a guy that had a similar tube that was completely clean, and he wanted a thousand more than I paid for one of mine. |
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