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Posted: 5/15/2021 11:09:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Given your parameters, 6.5 grendel. Supposedly 6mm arc should be good too but I have no personal experience with it. I shoot my grendel at 600 frequently and it's a blast!
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Posted: 5/16/2021 9:33:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Ok, I have a PSA lower with a standard trigger group. for some odd reason, the pins on this lower make every upper I've attached incredibly tight. So, I'm inclined to turn this lower into a precision rifle. I picked up a Luth-AR stock with rifle length buffer tube, spring and buffer. I'll switch out the trigger for a competition drop in, but I'm looking at what caliber to go with. As I'm stuck with the standard 5.56 mag well, what can I get away with? 6.5? 6.8? Looking at 600-1000 meter range. Give me your thoughts. Meters? Ok, I am ok using metric. Fast & flat seems good for LD shooting. Does it need to hit with any ft-lb's ? The 6.5 seems like a good choice. 20" barrel will be your choice? |
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Posted: 5/16/2021 9:40:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given your parameters, 6.5 grendel. Supposedly 6mm arc should be good too but I have no personal experience with it. I shoot my grendel at 600 frequently and it's a blast! This will be a paper puncher. So, not looking for stopping power at that range. And yes, either a 20” or 24” barrel. Just looking for something I can shoot at the long distance ranges where I’m not making the AR folks jump like I’ve done with my 300winmag |
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Posted: 5/16/2021 10:53:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Ok, I have a PSA lower with a standard trigger group. for some odd reason, the pins on this lower make every upper I've attached incredibly tight. So, I'm inclined to turn this lower into a precision rifle. I picked up a Luth-AR stock with rifle length buffer tube, spring and buffer. I'll switch out the trigger for a competition drop in, but I'm looking at what caliber to go with. As I'm stuck with the standard 5.56 mag well, what can I get away with? 6.5? 6.8? Looking at 600-1000 meter range. Give me your thoughts. Do you handload, or stuck using factory ammo? There are some wildcats that aren't SAAMI and store shelf available that would do well in that role. |
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Posted: 5/16/2021 11:12:44 AM EDT
[#5]
6.5 outperforms the 6.8 at distance according to my reading. My guess is that 6mm arc would also edge out 6.8. 224 Valkyrie is out there too. There is a price to pay though. The bolts have thin metal around the base and will break sooner than later. My extractor broke after about 200 rounds (I shot some steel case wolf to break it in which may have contributed). Maxim advised it was probably due to the nitride finish making the metal brittle. They went to phosphate and sent me a replacement.
I do not know if the 6.8 has the same issue so it may not make a difference. I'd go with grendel but do some research on your bolt. |
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Posted: 5/25/2021 9:06:49 PM EDT
[#6]
If ammo availability wasn't a concern... ( right ? )
I would buy a 6MM ARC. However, I still wonder about magazines. That said ... a good load with a 77gr TMK in a 5.56, is no slouch. And is very well proven to work, all the time magazine wise. I have been able to hit steel torso sized targets , repeatably, and predictably, with .223 75gr Hornady Steel Match ammo... at 794yds. |
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Posted: 5/26/2021 5:29:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If ammo availability wasn't a concern... ( right ? ) I would buy a 6MM ARC. However, I still wonder about magazines. That said ... a good load with a 77gr TMK in a 5.56, is no slouch. And is very well proven to work, all the time magazine wise. I have been able to hit steel torso sized targets , repeatably, and predictably, with .223 75gr Hornady Steel Match ammo... at 794yds. I have the 6mm ARC but have yet to really stretch its legs. I have a few ACS magazines made for the 6mm ARC. They have red followers and have been 100% so far. As with just about everything else right now, ammo and brass is next to impossible to find. |
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Posted: 5/26/2021 7:03:12 AM EDT
[#8]
6 ARC.
I have competed with a 5.56 gasser with 77s, and it will do it, but not well in the wind and it runs out of steam. The 6 ARC would do well, better than the Grendel. It's in the same cartridge class that most of us are shooting in PRS matches. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 8:58:38 PM EDT
[#9]
I have a 6.5 Grendel that shoots undisturbed by most influences great out to 800 yards. From 800 to 1000 then the environment variables take over. I use the 123 grain SST or Sierra Match Kings as my go to projectiles. The 224 Valkyrie does well but seems the brass does not like more than a couple resize then the primer pocket loosens up severely. I obviously don’t hunt with either at those distances but only shoot steel or paper.
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Posted: 6/9/2021 9:02:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6 ARC. I have competed with a 5.56 gasser with 77s, and it will do it, but not well in the wind and it runs out of steam. The 6 ARC would do well, better than the Grendel. It's in the same cartridge class that most of us are shooting in PRS matches. Thanks all for the input, I'm getting the OdinWorks 6mm ARC 21" XL barrel. Seems to fit the bill for what I'm looking for. Next question, what is everybody using for a muzzle device? I really like the MB that's on the FN Ballista, but it seems to be a proprietary design. any info on something similar? |
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Posted: 6/14/2021 12:08:26 AM EDT
[#11]
Go Grendel. Had mine for a very long time and it's great.
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Posted: 6/14/2021 1:50:42 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Ok, I have a PSA lower with a standard trigger group. for some odd reason, the pins on this lower make every upper I've attached incredibly tight. So, I'm inclined to turn this lower into a precision rifle. I picked up a Luth-AR stock with rifle length buffer tube, spring and buffer. I'll switch out the trigger for a competition drop in, but I'm looking at what caliber to go with. As I'm stuck with the standard 5.56 mag well, what can I get away with? 6.5? 6.8? Looking at 600-1000 meter range. Give me your thoughts. My thoughts? What does lower figment on an AR have to do with precision shooting? |
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Posted: 6/14/2021 9:17:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My thoughts? What does lower figment on an AR have to do with precision shooting? |
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Posted: 6/14/2021 10:12:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Recoil consistency. May be moot with the squishy bit behind the buttplate, but I'll take snugger until a tool is needed for disassembly or if there's binding in the BCG travel.
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Posted: 6/14/2021 11:13:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Recoil consistency. May be moot with the squishy bit behind the buttplate, but I'll take snugger until a tool is needed for disassembly or if there's binding in the BCG travel.  You didn’t have to make up a new term for the sake of argument. Even if the term you just coined was really a thing, it would still be an extremely unimportant topic in the grand scheme of AR precision shooting (much like upper/lower fitment relating to accuracy) I urge people to stop spreading fake info, it really makes this great forum look bad. This isn’t a personal attack. If I’m wrong, post an article on the subject of recoil consistency written by someone of favorable repute so we can all be enlightened. For the sake of staying on topic, follow it up with an article or data showing the effects of loose upper/lower fitment since OP seems to believe it relates to precision shooting. |
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Posted: 6/15/2021 2:31:52 PM EDT
[#16]
@French1966
Joe Carlos bugs me by using percentages and rarely units to describe group size, but here's his opinion of receiver fit. German Salazar was the last stalwart of .30-06 in non-Garand competitions. He closed his blog, The Rifleman's Journal, several years ago. Currently, The Wayback Machine is down, but when up, you may still find some of his articles. One of which I believe was a comparison of .30cal to 6mm. He mentioned that the recoil of .30cal exploited faults in the shooters position and made more corner shots in the 10:30 and 1:30 quadrants of a bullseye target due to "barrel movement during barrel time". Considering how the upper receiver is supported, it makes sense to me that a loose fit in the lower, even with sling tension or other preload, would have a similar effect. Usually someone will mention "the AMU says receiver fit doesn't matter". I cannot find anything currently. I bet that they say bedding or otherwise matching receivers isn't enough gain for their gunsmiths to deal with receivers that don't fit each other. Apparently tuning action screw torque on bolt actions is a thing, in addition to pillar and glass bedding. It's a different creature with the trigger attached to the action, but even if that was isolated, wouldn't snugging the action into the stock still be recommended? |
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Posted: 6/16/2021 6:50:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My thoughts? What does lower figment on an AR have to do with precision shooting? Nothing, it was just a good excuse to build another rifle from a lower I already had. That being said, there is something to say about a tight lower and upper. Just feel connected to the whole thing. Whereas my service A1 was looser than a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, it still shot true, but the rattle was pretty annoying. |
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Posted: 6/16/2021 6:51:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Recoil consistency. May be moot with the squishy bit behind the buttplate, but I'll take snugger until a tool is needed for disassembly or if there's binding in the BCG travel. Ditto, I can still knock both pins out with a knuckle rap. Thats just snug enough for me |
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Posted: 6/18/2021 12:30:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing, it was just a good excuse to build another rifle from a lower I already had. That being said, there is something to say about a tight lower and upper. Just feel connected to the whole thing. Whereas my service A1 was looser than a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, it still shot true, but the rattle was pretty annoying. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My thoughts? What does lower figment on an AR have to do with precision shooting? Nothing, it was just a good excuse to build another rifle from a lower I already had. That being said, there is something to say about a tight lower and upper. Just feel connected to the whole thing. Whereas my service A1 was looser than a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, it still shot true, but the rattle was pretty annoying. Ah yes, let’s spread some more folklore around the firearm community. We obviously don’t have enough already… (If it just makes you feel good, rock on.) And still waiting for someone to tell me what “recoil consistency” is and how it is quantified. |
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Posted: 6/18/2021 1:46:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah yes, let’s spread some more folklore around the firearm community. We obviously don’t have enough already… (If it just makes you feel good, rock on.) And still waiting for someone to tell me what “recoil consistency” is and how it is quantified. You certainly are consistent - in more ways than one. You have expressed your opinion, and in a linked article by Joe Carlos, he tells us what his opinion is. My opinion is, I will believe a known expert with vast experience who is widely respected over your anonymous opinion. Feel free to call it folklore, won't hurt my feelings. |
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Posted: 6/19/2021 1:46:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You certainly are consistent - in more ways than one. You have expressed your opinion, and in a linked article by Joe Carlos, he tells us what his opinion is. My opinion is, I will believe a known expert with vast experience who is widely respected over your anonymous opinion. Feel free to call it folklore, won't hurt my feelings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ah yes, let’s spread some more folklore around the firearm community. We obviously don’t have enough already… (If it just makes you feel good, rock on.) And still waiting for someone to tell me what “recoil consistency” is and how it is quantified. You certainly are consistent - in more ways than one. You have expressed your opinion, and in a linked article by Joe Carlos, he tells us what his opinion is. My opinion is, I will believe a known expert with vast experience who is widely respected over your anonymous opinion. Feel free to call it folklore, won't hurt my feelings. I don’t think you understood my comments at all. Thats ok though. I only argue for the purpose of learning something new. Unfortunately nothing fruitful was gained from this discussion except posting of an article lacking data concerning the very controversial and gimmicky accuwedge, and some strange talk about “recoil consistency” which no one wants to further comment on beyond “feeling connected to the whole thing” (not sure what that means). |
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Posted: 6/19/2021 2:00:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn’t have to make up a new term for the sake of argument. Even if the term you just coined was really a thing, it would still be an extremely unimportant topic in the grand scheme of AR precision shooting (much like upper/lower fitment relating to accuracy) I urge people to stop spreading fake info, it really makes this great forum look bad. This isn’t a personal attack. If I’m wrong, post an article on the subject of recoil consistency written by someone of favorable repute so we can all be enlightened. For the sake of staying on topic, follow it up with an article or data showing the effects of loose upper/lower fitment since OP seems to believe it relates to precision shooting. @French1966 And also, no offense intended at all. I shoot better with a snug fitting upper and lower. ( along with other tuning tricks ) Others seem to as well. But...That doesn't mean it is for everyone. I am a firm believer in a snug upper to lower fit ... at the very least, it should make for a more consistent wielding of the AR for the average folk.... not everyone slings up to shoot their AR. I consider it a good way to decrease a undesirable issue on a precision oriented AR... to me a snug upper to lower fit isn't much different then bedding a bolt action... or bedding an M1A... all those things help with a consistent repeatable return to battery. Even small things like upper to lower fit, can matter if your goal is consistent precision. No one shoots with a loose stock, sights, muzzle device or anything else... If someone wants to "improve the potential precision" on their combat AR.. I would suggest tightening the upper to lower fit as one of the first things to try . It is one of the easiest things to do. ( especially given the lack of a variety precision ammo availability to try out first. ) Even the M1A and Garand has gone /is still going through its "accurizing" phase. And both of those have shown precision improvement via bedding... so for us looking for more precision, a tighter fit just makes sense. IMHO, Does every AR need it ? ... That is up to the owner of the AR.... or better said, up to the individual. And as far as that is concerned... to each his own. I will say.. I bet most of the High dollar accuracy AR's have a snug fit. JP, GAP, etc. Even the precision minded builders recommend a snug upper and lower. I believe it to be part of the "formula" to increase your odds of building a precision AR. And it works well for me. ( see profile photo. ) Just like using a "better" trigger... it makes it easier for me to shoot smaller groups. I can still shoot good groups with a USGI trigger, but it sure takes more focus. FWIW.... https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/The-often-quoted-Army-test-about-loose-fitting-upper-to-lower-and-how-it-doesn-t-effect-accuracy-/4-9663/ As for..." I urge people to stop spreading fake info"..... and also no offense intended... coining a phrase, isn't spreading fake info. I understood what HighpowerRifleBrony meant... quite readily. Consistent recoil management. FWIW...Even artillery uses a form of it. |
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Posted: 6/19/2021 2:17:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks all for the input, I'm getting the OdinWorks 6mm ARC 21" XL barrel. Seems to fit the bill for what I'm looking for. Next question, what is everybody using for a muzzle device? I really like the MB that's on the FN Ballista, but it seems to be a proprietary design. any info on something similar? Get a new bolt and magazines for the ARC as well. Get a suppressor and qd mount flash hider or muzzle brake. |
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Posted: 6/25/2021 12:21:22 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @French1966 And also, no offense intended at all. I shoot better with a snug fitting upper and lower. ( along with other tuning tricks ) Others seem to as well. But...That doesn't mean it is for everyone. I am a firm believer in a snug upper to lower fit ... at the very least, it should make for a more consistent wielding of the AR for the average folk.... not everyone slings up to shoot their AR. I consider it a good way to decrease a undesirable issue on a precision oriented AR... to me a snug upper to lower fit isn't much different then bedding a bolt action... or bedding an M1A... all those things help with a consistent repeatable return to battery. Even small things like upper to lower fit, can matter if your goal is consistent precision. No one shoots with a loose stock, sights, muzzle device or anything else... If someone wants to "improve the potential precision" on their combat AR.. I would suggest tightening the upper to lower fit as one of the first things to try . It is one of the easiest things to do. ( especially given the lack of a variety precision ammo availability to try out first. ) Even the M1A and Garand has gone /is still going through its "accurizing" phase. And both of those have shown precision improvement via bedding... so for us looking for more precision, a tighter fit just makes sense. IMHO, Does every AR need it ? ... That is up to the owner of the AR.... or better said, up to the individual. And as far as that is concerned... to each his own. I will say.. I bet most of the High dollar accuracy AR's have a snug fit. JP, GAP, etc. Even the precision minded builders recommend a snug upper and lower. I believe it to be part of the "formula" to increase your odds of building a precision AR. And it works well for me. ( see profile photo. ) Just like using a "better" trigger... it makes it easier for me to shoot smaller groups. I can still shoot good groups with a USGI trigger, but it sure takes more focus. FWIW.... https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/The-often-quoted-Army-test-about-loose-fitting-upper-to-lower-and-how-it-doesn-t-effect-accuracy-/4-9663/ As for..." I urge people to stop spreading fake info"..... and also no offense intended... coining a phrase, isn't spreading fake info. I understood what HighpowerRifleBrony meant... quite readily. Consistent recoil management. FWIW...Even artillery uses a form of it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You didn’t have to make up a new term for the sake of argument. Even if the term you just coined was really a thing, it would still be an extremely unimportant topic in the grand scheme of AR precision shooting (much like upper/lower fitment relating to accuracy) I urge people to stop spreading fake info, it really makes this great forum look bad. This isn’t a personal attack. If I’m wrong, post an article on the subject of recoil consistency written by someone of favorable repute so we can all be enlightened. For the sake of staying on topic, follow it up with an article or data showing the effects of loose upper/lower fitment since OP seems to believe it relates to precision shooting. @French1966 And also, no offense intended at all. I shoot better with a snug fitting upper and lower. ( along with other tuning tricks ) Others seem to as well. But...That doesn't mean it is for everyone. I am a firm believer in a snug upper to lower fit ... at the very least, it should make for a more consistent wielding of the AR for the average folk.... not everyone slings up to shoot their AR. I consider it a good way to decrease a undesirable issue on a precision oriented AR... to me a snug upper to lower fit isn't much different then bedding a bolt action... or bedding an M1A... all those things help with a consistent repeatable return to battery. Even small things like upper to lower fit, can matter if your goal is consistent precision. No one shoots with a loose stock, sights, muzzle device or anything else... If someone wants to "improve the potential precision" on their combat AR.. I would suggest tightening the upper to lower fit as one of the first things to try . It is one of the easiest things to do. ( especially given the lack of a variety precision ammo availability to try out first. ) Even the M1A and Garand has gone /is still going through its "accurizing" phase. And both of those have shown precision improvement via bedding... so for us looking for more precision, a tighter fit just makes sense. IMHO, Does every AR need it ? ... That is up to the owner of the AR.... or better said, up to the individual. And as far as that is concerned... to each his own. I will say.. I bet most of the High dollar accuracy AR's have a snug fit. JP, GAP, etc. Even the precision minded builders recommend a snug upper and lower. I believe it to be part of the "formula" to increase your odds of building a precision AR. And it works well for me. ( see profile photo. ) Just like using a "better" trigger... it makes it easier for me to shoot smaller groups. I can still shoot good groups with a USGI trigger, but it sure takes more focus. FWIW.... https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/The-often-quoted-Army-test-about-loose-fitting-upper-to-lower-and-how-it-doesn-t-effect-accuracy-/4-9663/ As for..." I urge people to stop spreading fake info"..... and also no offense intended... coining a phrase, isn't spreading fake info. I understood what HighpowerRifleBrony meant... quite readily. Consistent recoil management. FWIW...Even artillery uses a form of it. Consistent recoil management is the job of the shooter. Please enlighten me as to how a tight upper and lower fitment pertains to that. |
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Posted: 6/25/2021 9:41:59 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Consistent recoil management is the job of the shooter. Please enlighten me as to how a tight upper and lower fitment pertains to that. As mentioned previously.. "at the very least, it should make for a more consistent wielding of the AR for the average folk" |
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Posted: 6/25/2021 6:35:38 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Consistent recoil management is the job of the shooter. Please enlighten me as to how a tight upper and lower fitment pertains to that. Forgive my ignorance, but what is your purpose here? Bfoosh has posted data linking empirical data stating that a snug upper and lower, results in a better cheek weld. Numerous info on more consistent "recoil consistently/recoil management). To be honest, you have not provided one shred of evidence to the contrary. Other than calling fit and function as "gimmicky" and folklore. If you have nothing to add to the discussion at hand, your more than welcome to leave this thread. |
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Posted: 6/25/2021 9:41:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Recoil starts with the upper as the bullet moves through the bore (ala "barrel movement during barrel time" that Salazar had spoke of). If not unitized to the lower, it can move differently before transferring to the shooter.
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Posted: 6/25/2021 10:27:06 PM EDT
[#28]
OK, back to the OP. Here's what I have so far
PSA Lower Wicked Weaponry Upper (actual mfg unknown) OdinWorks 21" 6mmARC SS barrel OdinWorks 15.5" floating handguard Luth-AR precision stock Some sort of pistol grip (had for a while) TruGlo CF Bipod Ambi charging handle 6.5 Grendel bolt in MilSpech Bolt carrier body Looking into optics, most likely will go with a US Optics TS20X and ZRO Delta cantilever mount Still need to switch out the trigger assy. Recommendations would be greatly appreciated 
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Posted: 6/26/2021 11:43:51 PM EDT
[#29]
I prefer 2 stage triggers on my Precision builds... I can back out of a shot easier, if I am getting fidgety.
1. I really like my Geissele SSA-E triggers, one main selling point to me is the USGI shaped trigger bow face.... and the pull is great. It is expensive, even on sale.. but all have been very , very consistently good. 2. LaRue makes for a heckuva bargain for a 2 stage trigger. ( I just don't like the less rounded edges on the trigger bow ) All mine are refreshingly consistent as well. Moderately priced 3. The various manufacturers that rebrand and sell the Schmid Tool 2 stage, are also very good for the price. There are so many manufacturers selling the 2 stage Schmid... I probably could not name them all. Low priced Pic for reference... Note the stamped "S" on the hammer and trigger.  I do have to mention.. when the Schmid Tool 2 Stage first came out , Ruger also sold it as their Elite 452 trigger, one of my Elite 452 triggers still has an odd "click" on reset... I have only read about it being an issue one other time. ALL my other Schmid Tools 2 stage triggers are great for the cost.... And the trigger bow is a USGI profile. ( FWIW... No slam on the Schmid Tools 2 stage trigger at all, just that one Ruger Elite 452 does it.... it is a heckuva deal. And many thousands of the Schmid Tools have been sold by many , many different manufacturers .. From PSA to Centurion ) |
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