i just bought a case of XM193PD yesterday, then saw this today

the onlything i have noticed in my case is that the OAL varies in that some bullets are seated so that MOST of the cannalure is exposed , some with it barely exposed and some with it eated such that it is barely below the brass neck

what is the tolerance in AOL for 193?

i took 4 rounds at random - two that seemed to have the cannelure covered and two in which the cannelure was completely exposed
here is what i measured

cannelure covered                #1      OAL =2.239  brass length 1.758
                                              #2                 2.233                        1.758


cannelure totally exposed    #1      OAL =2.248  brass length 1.755
                                              #2                 2.248                        1.54
what will this effect if i shoot it?

is this error accpetable for SHTf ammo or only for plinking or just not acceptable at all?

i really dont know so i would appreciate some knowledgeable input

my dealer has winchester q3131 and i wonder if i should ask him to swap it out but i really dont want to do that if my lot is not a problem as this guy treats me really well!!

thanks guys

rich

Anyone??

Quoted: Anyone??

Don't take offense but...for crying out loud - just head out to the range and enjoy a few hours of shooting with it.

Pull any cartridges that won't pass muster (severe dents, bullets seated too deep, etc.) and set them aside. I ran a visual inspection on each of the rounds I received (XM855PD) and pulled a total of 11 out of the batch. I got mine from Ammoman.

It's good stuff...

What's the deal with Lake City stuff that is classified as "demilled"? I've been told that this is grade 1 ammo that has been taken apart and then put back together so that it can be sold to the public. Is this for real? Sounds kind of crazy that LC would do such a thing just to get around a Klinton EE - but then again, it is a government setup.

Anybody heard of such a thing or is this a scam?  

Quoted: What's the deal with Lake City stuff that is classified as "demilled"? I've been told that this is grade 1 ammo that has been taken apart and then put back together so that it can be sold to the public. Is this for real? Sounds kind of crazy that LC would do such a thing just to get around a Klinton EE - but then again, it is a government setup. Anybody heard of such a thing or is this a scam?

Not sure what you're referring to...

Link?

Because I saw this on one of the auction sites, I won't include the link but here is what the description says:

"1000 rounds of USGI .223 / 5.56 Lake City manufactured ammo. This ammo was produced by the Lake City Arsonal and then demilled under contract through Lake City for civilian sale. Demilled means that this ammo was released by Lake City under contract, and was taken apart and had a new primer put in and then loaded back with the same components. They must do this to make the ammo legal for civilian sale. Lake City is the only government funded Arsonal left and they produce 90% of all the ammo the US military uses. It is considered to be some of the best in the world. The military primer crimp has been removed so this ammo will be easier to reload once you shoot it. It is some very dependable and accurrate ammo, and most of all it burns clean, so it won't make your AR-15 jam after 300 rounds, like some of the other cheap ammo. This ammo is boxer primed, brass cased, non-corrosive, and 100% reloadable. It comes packed loose."

Looks like this stuff has been going for $150 per 1000 which makes me suspicious by itself. I'm just curious if this "demill" business is legit.

I saw that auction too, on Gunroker.  I think that the guy selling it may not know what he is talking about.  Ammo is not demilled from Lake City unless it is being destroyed.  It is still going to be grade 3 "PD" ammo.  I read his feedback and he has alot of positive feedback for that particular ammo, so i'd say its worth a shot and buy some to try it.  

Nic

I kindda had the same thought. Why take it apart just to put it back together again?
Regardless, probably wouldn't count on this stuff for anything other than farting aroung/plinkingm ammo. Might be worth checking out at that price.

I don't know about this stuff - notice that the neck isn't discolored from being hardened...seems kind of suspect. link

He is also selling M855 as "armor piercing" link

Yeah, the armour piercing bit is common with them.

I bought 1000rds from him. I rejected 38 for dents and such, he sent me 50 replacements with no hassle at all. I've gone through about 700rds in my Daewoos and DS-AR with zero failures, I'll buy from him again soon.

I'm in tears for not buying a few of the 2,000 rd boxes of M855PD from MidwayUSA when I had the chance to do so at a discount.  Now it's all gone!

Quoted: I'm in tears for not buying a few of the 2,000 rd boxes of M855PD from MidwayUSA when I had the chance to do so at a discount.  Now it's all gone!

Me too

And I got a Hell of a discount.

out of the ~3k rounds through my AR, i think maybe 100 of them DIDNT have PD at the end of it.

The result:

0 FTF
0 FTEx
0FTEj
0 Complaints

I have purchased and fired 1000 rds of 855pd as well as 1500 rds of none green tip ss109 marked for training use only from the hunting shack out of montana with of course hand inspecting each rd with 100% success. I am also very weery of purchasing pd ammo for all of the discussed issues good luck to all and god bless our country.

I have a 1,000 rds of XM855PD  on order from Natchez

I for one am glad that ammo is rejected for whatever reason.........and then that run is bulk packed and sold at a discount to us civilians.  I shoot once a week with my Walther p-99 and use Speer Gold Dot ammo -Nickel cased JHP's from ammoman. I asked why the ammo was labled not for law enforcement and Eric at ammoman couldn't say, except to tell me he has sold over 11 MILLIONS rounds of the stuff without a single complaint. I personally have bought and fired several thousands rds of this "kind" of bulk packaged ammo .40 cal and have never had a single problem. I shoot the GOOD stuff [ Gold Dot JHP's ] at practice for about the same price as the junk ammo out there.....and all because someone pulled the plug on that particular run. Sure I carry Bonded stuff for my CCW work, but I think we all win with the bulked packaged ammo.

Of course some care is warranted and as with all ammo ......... I check each round before I load it up............I don't care how good the Military stuff is suppose to be, I wouldn't load it without a visual once over. I am sure even with that "great " ammo -- one can find an occasional miss crimp.

I treat my ammo like my food........ If it looks bad, I won't eat it  & I won't shoot it either hoseJF.

I don't care how he got it, I'm just glad I had a chance to pick me up a crate! Just arrived yesterday. I can only hope I can finance another crate before its all gone. Ammoman, Your doing one hell of a job.

Quoted: I don't know about this stuff - notice that the neck isn't discolored from being hardened...seems kind of suspect. link

+1
The case should be discolored in the annealing process.  His brass is shiny like commercial loaded/reloaded ammo.  It's probably good ammo, but I'd pass on this if you are looking for genuine xm193/xm193pd.

Genuine xm193/193pd:


Suspect:

The M855 from Ammoman is some damn fine looking and shooting ammo! Great job Eric! I've purchased a good bit of it and it is definately FRONT LINE AMMO as advertised.  Again, GREAT JOB!... Tom

Been running Fed/LC 855PD in my machine gun for several thousand rounds now without any hickups except yesterday i noticed some "key hole" indications in paper targets when shooting in my Bushy M4 upper with 1x9 twist.  Maybe the barrel is getting worn out, but it does not key hole with 193 55gr. FMJ...

other than that, its good quality blasting ammo for my needs...

Quoted: Quoted: Unless you're active military you won't get grade 1 ammo.  Grade 2 is the best grade ammo a civilian can legally acquire and XM193 is currently the most available grade 2 round. There is nothing illegal about civilians acquiring or possessing "grade 1" ammunition.  All Clinton did with his EO was instruct the armed forces to cease converting any ammunition to surplus for sale to outside parties.  Once in the system, it never leaves.  If they get desperate and start using Grade 2 or 3 ammunition, then the same restriction applies.  If supply of grade 1 ammunition exceeds military demand, there is nothing stopping Alliant from selling Grade 1 to civilians.

Let's explore this statement "If supply of grade 1 ammunition exceeds military demand, there is nothing stopping Alliant from selling Grade 1 to civilians."

This will never happen.  The different services (within the DoD) request, from Congress via the President's Budget, a specific quantity and corresponding funding of small arms ammunition.  The Army, as the buying agent of small arms ammunition for the services, collects and takes this money and applies it to ATK's contract at Lake City.  That amount is then delivered to the DoD.  OC & LAT rejects and floor sweeps are not delivered to the DoD.  ATK has to eat that loss if they make reject ammunition (we, the public, see that as XM and XM..PD ammunition).  So ATK only produces ammo to meet the military's funded demand.  ALL grade 1 ammo is delivered to the Government.  What IS stopping ATK is their contract with the government.  There is no provision in their contract that allows them to use government-owned equipment for their direct commercial profit.

Let's look at this statement "If they get desperate and start using Grade 2 or 3 ammunition...."

The Government/military DOES NOT accept rejects!  Period.  Even during the period after 9/11 when LC could not keep pace with the GWOT demand for small arms ammunition, the DoD did not accept grade 2/3 rejects.  They used buys from Winchester and IMI to fill the need.

XM193 (or XM855) comes from a specific lot of ammunition the government has rejected for whatever reason, but usually for minor quality control issues.  XM193 would probably consist of mostly grade 1 stuff and the rounds that caused the lot to be rejected.

Similarly, XM193PD would be rejected for major issues - dented ammo, BIB, split case necks, etc.  It would consist of grade 1, grade 2 and the grade 3 rounds that caused the lot to be rejected.

Shoot the stuff - just inspect it before you shoot it.  Here's some of the 7% I pulled out of a bulk pack of 1,000 I recently bought:

What I have received from ammoman is definately not seconds or pd. Absolutely no problems of any kind. 1st grade period.  Tom