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Posted: 1/25/2018 6:21:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are a lot of vendors that sell Toolcraft BCGs, but the one place with which I have personal experience is Cryptic Coatings. They do high end coatings on top of the Toolcraft BCGs so obviously not a budget offering ($110 for black nitride or parkerized), but their peoducts and CS are outstanding. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 7:00:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfortunately BCM actually assembles their BCG and test fire each one before packaging them. From what I have heard, they source each part from different manufacturers and then assemble in house before firing each unit. They must've gotten a better deal to make more money having someone else machine their carriers. I emailed BCM and their response was... "those are normal tooling marks" http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20171226-135515.png" target="_blank">http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20171226-135515.png |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:17:06 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 1/26/2018 10:02:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quality |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 10:59:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Times are tough...tooling marks..ok I get it..but you can't put out a product for some time that didn't look like that and then all of a sudden they start looking like someones QC checks started slacking.
Especially at the price point they demand. I thought man..all these guys online talk about how bad ass BCM is and operators use them.... Yeah.. I think I may pick up one of their BCG for a SHtf situation someday... But when you have Henderson Defenses thread about machine guns and hard use and stating that PSA BCG do fine....well why would u spend that extra $$$ after hearing first hand accounts that something more economical DOES work and doesn't fail DuRing HARD ass use???? All this being said I picked up a toolcraft BCG during a sale to try out eventually. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:25:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen some of the links on where to purchase Toolcraft BCGs but what is the best place to buy them? From what I've seen in this thread, customer service is very important when looking at a go to supplier of any AR part. With that said, which Toolcraft seller has good customer service? |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:54:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Okay guys, sorry I've been off for a bit. I have been held up with work. So I haven't heard anything from PA yet as far as their response, but I will email them today. I did however just receive an apology email from BCM for their response to me originally. Apparently they caught wind of my post here in the forum, as they mentioned it in the email. I will post the email so you guys can see, as I refuse to hide anything. I agree with everyone, the machining marks don't affect the functionality, but the location of the marks concerns me, as that can be a very dirty area on the bcg and we all know, a smooth surface doesn't build up as bad as a textured one and cleans easier. Not one of my 30+ rifles are safe queens and most have scratches, marks, abuse, and thousands of rounds through them. I still however am a person that looks for products that people take pride in manufacturing, and that focus on the entire parts quality, not just select areas. I still think BCM should contact Microbest, if that's who makes their stuff still, and let them know that they need to change tooling or slow down.
Now as far as BCM responding to me... I appreciate them emailing me... however, it took me stirring up a hornets nest so to speak... Thousands of views on a forum post and Primary Arms pulling their stock, for them to think maybe we fucked up with our response. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:19:27 PM EDT
[#9]
 Nice response.Sad. Eta: the worst part is, it's not just BCM.I had a similar issue with a vendor yesterday, and Industry Partner here to boot. I just crossed them off my list. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:54:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Nice to know that they’ll only make things right if you call them out online.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 1:17:54 PM EDT
[#11]
From what I have heard or maybe it was on this post... Colt has the same machining issues... If I recall... Microbest which should be Microworst, makes their BCG too?
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Posted: 1/26/2018 2:54:45 PM EDT
[#12]
So basically they’re saying they have better quality control than most other BCG manufacturers on every aspect of their bolt carriers except for the finish. So it looks like shit but really it’s better than anything available. BCM seems to pride themselves in making equipment for the “Warfighter” but that’s not the majority of their clientele. The AR business is moving further and further towards beautifully designed/machined parts and accessories. People have been spoiled in a way with all the high tech coatings and billet Receivers. Mil-Spec is now looked at as junk unless you’re building a clone military rifle. I don’t care how great your product is, if it looks like crap no one will buy it.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 2:58:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have heard or maybe it was on this post... Colt has the same machining issues... If I recall... Microbest which should be Microworst, makes their BCG too. I can assure you that’s total bull shit. I went back and figured a workaround on how to pull some of the pics Photobucket wouldn’t let me access... Colt factory photos.... 
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Posted: 1/26/2018 3:07:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have heard or maybe it was on this post... Colt has the same machining issues... If I recall... Microbest which should be Microworst, makes their BCG too. As stated, Colt does their own. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 3:11:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you stating that a third party machines Colt’s bolt carriers? I can assure you that’s total bull shit. I went back and figured a workaround on how to pull some of the pics Photobucket wouldn’t let me access... Colt factory photos.... https://i.imgur.com/FgnOvqX.jpg https://i.imgur.com/xw1wyLD.jpg I like it! |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 4:00:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The email I received from BCM this morning. http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20180126-105524.png" target="_blank">http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20180126-105524.png http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20180126-105701.png 
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Posted: 1/26/2018 5:48:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you stating that a third party machines Colt’s bolt carriers? I can assure you that’s total bull shit. I went back and figured a workaround on how to pull some of the pics Photobucket wouldn’t let me access... Colt factory photos.... Thank you for clearing that up! I don't want to spew bad info. https://i.imgur.com/uq81pkd.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FgnOvqX.jpg https://i.imgur.com/xw1wyLD.jpg |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 5:49:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Repeating unfounded crap is where most go wrong here. As stated, Colt does their own. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 8:56:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Definitely not looking to spread misrepresented information. Glad someone cleared that up. I have a Microbest BCG that is the picture of “what a bolt carrier group should look like.” Extremely smoothly finished, dimensionally accurate, properly staked screws, and so on. I bought it because of how well Microbest is respected within the industry. That gets to my point: if someone has had a Microbest BCG that looked like crap, I am fairly certain it was a very rare exception. Bravo Company’s BCGs are probably also almost always close to perfect. It’s impossible to not accidentally let out a crappy looking product. The issue here was the way Bravo Company borked their response. They should have simply said “here’s a return label,” or at the very least had the OP return the part through the vendor he got it from (PA) to “close the loop” in terms of who/when/how the part got there. A good management team would not have “Joe from customer service” walk the plank for this, but they should provide assurances that BOTH the QC AND the customer service issues were being addressed. And it looks like they half-assed the customer service thing and 100% equivocated on the QC thing. Which in itself is a customer service screw up... |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:11:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are times that Colt can’t keep up; they have shipped rifles with FN carriers and/or bolts. But Colt is almost certainly not outsourcing stuff like this when they can avoid it, and if they can’t, they go to specific (and TDP-using) suppliers like FN. I have a Microbest BCG that is the picture of “what a bolt carrier group should look like.” Extremely smoothly finished, dimensionally accurate, properly staked screws, and so on. I bought it because of how well Microbest is respected within the industry. That gets to my point: if someone has had a Microbest BCG that looked like crap, I am fairly certain it was a very rare exception. Bravo Company’s BCGs are probably also almost always close to perfect. It’s impossible to not accidentally let out a crappy looking product. The issue here was the way Bravo Company borked their response. They should have simply said “here’s a return label,” or at the very least had the OP return the part through the vendor he got it from (PA) to “close the loop” in terms of who/when/how the part got there. A good management team would not have “Joe from customer service” walk the plank for this, but they should provide assurances that BOTH the QC AND the customer service issues were being addressed. And it looks like they half-assed the customer service thing and 100% equivocated on the QC thing. Which in itself is a customer service screw up... |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 12:02:46 AM EDT
[#21]
I gave someone else my money this week...
So they sent a email...big deal To little to late. If i want shitty looking parts I will buy Anderson Eta typo |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 12:16:13 AM EDT
[#22]
BCM never gave me the warm and fuzzies. Biggest turnoff for me is the fanboys who glorify an ACME gun that has not proven itself in battle. Not knocking BCM, but the brand seems overhyped. Too many choices out there providing better value.
As far as customer service, I was one of those guys who got blacklisted because I insisted on a refund of shipping costs after they sent me an item with missing and scuffed parts (it was a rail from another manufacturer which had been mounted but sold as new). Never bought anything from them again. Only BCM product I bought since was the MCMR from Brownells. Great design overall but it needs integrated sling mounts.... why add a 1 oz sling mount to a lightweight rail instead of machining a couple of holes? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 3:34:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice to know that they’ll only make things right if you call them out online. Go look at my post on the previous page about my experience... didn't take calling them out to correct the issue. I work for a large company, and have a team of front line employees who provide customer service. I try to do the best job I can, and I try to instill the same in others... that being said, mistakes happen. Correcting the mistake after its been identified is the right and best thing to do, and it looks like this is what BCM has done... Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:04:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mistakes happen... would you prefer they not correct the issue at all? Go look at my post on the previous page about my experience... didn't take calling them out to correct the issue. I work for a large company, and have a team of front line employees who provide customer service. I try to do the best job I can, and I try to instill the same in others... that being said, mistakes happen. Correcting the mistake after its been identified is the right and best thing to do, and it looks like this is what BCM has done... Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome? Only after it sank in that they broke their foot off in their own ass ( discovery of this thread) did they double down and offer resolution. "Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome?" How about real CS? PA had zero trouble stepping up. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:07:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My experience with them was quite different, that is why I am surprised at the response here... I have generally been pretty faithful with their Bolts and BCG and was about to order several more until this popped up... |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:09:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfortunately BCM actually assembles their BCG and test fire each one before packaging them. From what I have heard, they source each part from different manufacturers and then assemble in house before firing each unit. They must've gotten a better deal to make more money having someone else machine their carriers. I emailed BCM and their response was... "those are normal tooling marks" http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20171226-135515.png" target="_blank">http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20171226-135515.png |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:30:40 PM EDT
[#27]
I wanted a 11.5 upper, But wont be buying it from them now.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:47:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mistakes happen... would you prefer they not correct the issue at all? Go look at my post on the previous page about my experience... didn't take calling them out to correct the issue. I work for a large company, and have a team of front line employees who provide customer service. I try to do the best job I can, and I try to instill the same in others... that being said, mistakes happen. Correcting the mistake after its been identified is the right and best thing to do, and it looks like this is what BCM has done... Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nice to know that they’ll only make things right if you call them out online. Go look at my post on the previous page about my experience... didn't take calling them out to correct the issue. I work for a large company, and have a team of front line employees who provide customer service. I try to do the best job I can, and I try to instill the same in others... that being said, mistakes happen. Correcting the mistake after its been identified is the right and best thing to do, and it looks like this is what BCM has done... Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:04:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you even read the first page of this thread? I’m not being a smart ass, it’s just that things didn’t go the way you described. BCM told the OP that the machining marks were normal. They didn’t make a mistake like you described, they knowingly let that product out the door and don’t see an issue with it even now. Sure, they finally offered a return..... along with a lengthy explanation of how even though the BCG looks like shit, it still meets specifications. Wouldn’t be surprised if they package it back up and send it out to some other guy. Hell, they even admitted in their last response that there is no inspection of the overall finish, only the critical dimensions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nice to know that they’ll only make things right if you call them out online. Go look at my post on the previous page about my experience... didn't take calling them out to correct the issue. I work for a large company, and have a team of front line employees who provide customer service. I try to do the best job I can, and I try to instill the same in others... that being said, mistakes happen. Correcting the mistake after its been identified is the right and best thing to do, and it looks like this is what BCM has done... Aside from not making the mistake to begin with, what is the next best outcome? edit: looks like you did and edited the thread after I initially read it... I am not going to fight BCM's fight... I don't think they should have ever shipped the BCG to begin with, and disappointed with their initial response to the point that if that was going to be the position they stood by, I would look elsewhere... bad on them... but they did reverse and correct their first response as I think they should have... |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:50:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... but they did reverse and correct their first response as I think they should have... |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:16:35 PM EDT
[#31]
The BCM logo that is on the side of the BCG came off of mine with a soap/water ultrasonic cleaning. I began to question them after that.
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Posted: 1/28/2018 3:12:48 AM EDT
[#32]
For those saying they owned up to their mistakes and all is well... I don't think they would have owned up to anything if it wasn't for the fact of them being called out. I am not saying I couldn't be wrong but that is the way it appears to me. They finally got enough bad publicity here that they decided it wasn't worth letting it go any further. That's just my take on it, others may see it differently. I also know this isn't the only thread talking about BCMs lack of customer service. I don't think it is an isolated incident when it comes to their support.
And their response about how other commercial bolt carrier groups likely don't meet their standards made me chuckle a little. Hey who knows, maybe my Toolcraft BCG's don't meet BCM's standards but they sure are fine by me and I haven't heard of one that has had issues yet. On top of that it doesn't look like a robotic dog from the futures play toy either. It also doesn't hurt that I can buy 2.5 of them for the same price.... I won't say I will never buy a BCM product again as I like their Charging Handles, but tend to buy them used anyways. Everything they have on their site seems over priced to me and I can find the same quality "In my opinion" elsewhere for much less, or at least a little less. That doesn't mean I think BCM sells junk either, I think most of their products are likely still as good as they ever were. But it appears that when they have a bad run of parts anymore they are OK with them getting out instead of sending them back to whoever made them. And then telling the customer to go pound sand, and then when enough noise is made oh sorry we forgot the last sentence but don't worry our bcg's are still much better then anyone else just shows their customer service is lacking. |
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Posted: 1/28/2018 1:06:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had the same experience with a Stag BCG, here is a pic of the Nib BCG with the tool marks. I sent it back for a refund and ended up with a Toolcraft bcg coated by Cryptic coatings in Mystic Black. Huge difference in quality, the coated toolcraft feels as smooth as glass. Stag BCG, I believe CMT is their supplier for these. https://i.imgur.com/CO29boc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/9aBjbV0.jpg Toolcraft BCG w/ Mystic black coating https://i.imgur.com/zSxsitC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BuPF1Xr.jpg https://i.imgur.com/OJOhPDi.jpg |
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Posted: 1/30/2018 6:35:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am waiting for a response from PA. I will definitely stick with the Toolcraft c158 or 9310 bcg from now on. I would still like to know who is machining BCM bolts, so I know not to order from that company ever. A real machinist takes pride in their work and craftsmanship. If a CNC cabinet is producing this quality, then the company needs to see why. |
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Posted: 1/30/2018 10:00:35 AM EDT
[#35]
15 (or whatever) years ago when the TDP was a big deal to making good stuff, BCM was a big deal for having that insider knowledge. I never did understand why they got a free pass for peaking at something that no one was allowed to see though. Then when questioned about it that way, it becomes "They never advertised it as mil-spec."
Now, there's enough manufacturers out there that have a working and proven model and process that we don't need that insider knowledge and don't have to pay a premium to get good parts. Saying "that's not functional and doesn't matter" while charging a premium?  I'd expect that out of the cheaper people. "That's why we're cheaper."
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Posted: 1/30/2018 10:07:04 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
15 (or whatever) years ago when the TDP was a big deal to making good stuff, BCM was a big deal for having that insider knowledge. I never did understand why they got a free pass for peaking at something that no one was allowed to see though. Then when questioned about it that way, it becomes "They never advertised it as mil-spec."
Now, there's enough manufacturers out there that have a working and proven model and process that we don't need that insider knowledge and don't have to pay a premium to get good parts. Saying "that's not functional and doesn't matter" while charging a premium? I'd expect that out of the cheaper people. "That's why we're cheaper."In many cases manufacturers are exceeding the TDP. |
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Posted: 1/30/2018 11:10:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Love my toolcraft too. |
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Posted: 2/1/2018 5:06:47 PM EDT
[#38]
I have a BCM BFH Mid length pencil barreled contraption. It's all BCM except for MagPul stuff.
Every part has the perfect BCM or Star logo on it. I wish they would have spent that much perfection on the machining. I traded a $600 AR Pistol for it. If I would have paid the $1600 regular price I would be more than a little PO'ed It works, shoots and all that, I just don't get that warm feeling I think I should have about it. |
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Posted: 2/1/2018 10:13:09 PM EDT
[#39]
I guess AKs can no longer be bashed because of tooling marks...bcm set a new standard for ARs.
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Posted: 2/4/2018 10:42:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The thing is they didn’t “accidentally let out a crappy product”. They stated in their email, after seeing the pics, that it was “normal tooling marks”. Others in this thread have also shown pics of similar looking BCGs from them. This is the crap they’re knowingly letting out the door. What they should have said was "That's not what we want our customers to expect from us. Here's a return label, and as soon as we receive the returned item, we'll ship you a new one right away." And they should have followed that up by having their head of QC verify that the replacement carrier was a perfect specimen. What BCM failed to capture, or failed to grasp is that some tooling marks are acceptable, and that some of the marks on the guy's carrier would indeed be OK. But the whole area, with such deep marks? Not acceptable, especially from a firm that is trying to make large amounts of money by being "authentically GI." |
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Posted: 2/4/2018 11:12:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Back about 13 years ago I remember upgrading from commercial BCG's like RRA, DPMS and others (not staked properly, not proof load, not MPT, not shot peened, etc.). to Colt and LMT BCG's. The first thing I noticed was tool marks all over my LMT that were not present on the others. In fact the RRA was smooth as could be.... only difference was metallurgy, QA/QC, extractor insert, spring,etc. The LMT was a superior BCG, but it wasn't as pretty. Point is on the bolt carrier the not contact surfaces surface finish doesn't matter in terms of performance. That being said if I were BCM I would make my finish standards above minimum spec's because unfortunately the customer is left to wonder if what they "see" is indicative of what they cannot "see" or "measure".
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Posted: 2/4/2018 11:38:19 PM EDT
[#42]
When a bcg at half the price point outperforms both performance wise and cosmetically, any manufacturer should be embarrased.
BCM should have bent over backwards to resolve this. They chose not to. |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 12:47:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BCM should have bent over backwards to resolve this. They chose not to. |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 1:10:07 PM EDT
[#44]
I have purchased some BCM stuff in the past including uppers and BCG's and many charging handles.. Honestly I don't consider myself a serious trigger puller so for my latest BCG I went with Toolcraft.
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Posted: 2/5/2018 7:05:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Well I was ordering parts for yet another build as I await my tax stamps from the BATFE... and noticed the BCM bcg back on Primary Arms website. I emailed PA to ask if they got the issue resolved and I guess they sent them a cleaner batch if anyone is interested in purchasing one. I've attached the email between me and PA. I will pass as I have never been a big BCM buyer, except for their charging handles. Too pricey when I can get the same quality for less when it comes to BCG's.
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Posted: 2/5/2018 7:26:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I was ordering parts for yet another build as I await my tax stamps from the BATFE... and noticed the BCM bcg back on Primary Arms website. I emailed PA to ask if they got the issue resolved and I guess they sent them a cleaner batch if anyone is interested in purchasing one. I've attached the email between me and PA. I will pass as I have never been a big BCM buyer, except for their charging handles. Too pricey when I can get the same quality for less when it comes to BCG's. http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20180205-153846.png" target="_blank">http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz291/boostedbeast/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20180205-153846.png |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 8:37:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Is this the start of the internet hating BCM?
I like bcm, I like how the hold up, etc. but it seems like BCM has made it right, maybe a bad CS rep got ahold of the OP’s emails, and didn’t give a shit. I wonder how it would have been handled with a different person behind the computer. Same thing can happen with the cable company, or with anything else. My stag bcg is perfect, has the same steels, good staking, etc. got it for under a hundred on sale a few years ago. Speaking of BCG’s, SLR just released their own BCG. I wonder how those are. Over 2 bills for a bcg is nuts if you ask me... |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 9:35:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this the start of the internet hating BCM? But charging what they do, and telling the customer it's fine, deal with it? Nah. Too many solid components available these days. +1 to PA for standing up though. Great company. |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 10:26:46 PM EDT
[#49]
RIP BCM
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Posted: 3/18/2018 6:59:41 PM EDT
[#50]
I read the entire thread. This is definitely not a response you want from a company regardless of the AR part in question. My Toolcraft should be here tomorrow. I purchased from Joeboboutfitters. He dun saved me some $.
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