Quoted: I have both a bolt and AR "sniper" rifle.  I have shot both extensively, taken both to sniper schools and deployed both on calls (LEO) as intended.  Pics of each. i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/jlatzke/Guns/100_2411.jpg i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/jlatzke/Guns/Gunpics012.jpg I'll note at the beginning of my rant that I am looking at this purely through the eyes of an LEO sniper.  I was not a mil sniper and cannot speak for their needs at all. In the .308 I shoot 168 grain black hills that is very accurate.  In the AR, I shoot the 77 grain 5.56 black hills that is also very accurate.  At the last school I went to, the AR and .308 did about the same in the wind.  Almost identical wind drift.  They were both equally accurate out to the max range we shot (700 yards).  The AR had less drop at all ranges, but was most noticable inside 200.   The AR has revealed so many advantages that I now carry it exclusively and the botl gun pretty much takes up shelf space in the arms room (even though I have more money in that gun).  I also get free ammo for the .308 and have to buy my own .223 ammo.  I still choose the AR for a number of reasons. First - and this a big one for me - is the more controlled penetration of the .223.  Most .308 match ammo (which is what you see at almost all departments) is notorious for overpenetration.  You can expect the typical 168 grain match round to go through your target, and several walls of whatever structure is behind it.  The .308 can be counted on to over-penetrate.  The .223 doesn't do this.  It pretty much stays in the body of humans. Often, intermediate barriers get brought up.  Well, the .308 isn't so hot shooting through glass either.  It likes to break up, shed it's core, and generally not hit where you want it to.  Glass is the barrier I think most LEO's will be shooting a sniper round through - I can't see many situations where an LEO is going to take shots through brick or other materials where he can't see what he's shooting at.  The .223 performs about the same through glass - it likes to break up and shed it's core, but in the few informal tests I've done (bsically shooting manequine heads in old cars through the windshield), the .223 seems to deviate less than the .308.  I know it isn't scientific going out and shooting cars in a junkyard, but I have noticed trends.   But say your first bullet doesn't do the job - I can immediately launch another .223 round from my AR with no more movement than pulling the trigger again.  It takes much less time (I can usually fire 20 aimed shots from my AR in the amount of time it takes a bolt gun driver to take 5 shots).  The AR kind of rattles when you shoot it - but otherwise stays right on target.  I have to wait until the recoil of the .308 is done, then work the bolt as fast as possible, then get back on target (which usually involves either me or the gun moving a bit) to fire another shot.  There is no comparison on how fast you can put accurate fire on target between the two. Also - by use of a stock pouch, I have 40 rounds on the gun that are very, very fast to load (a few seconds) compared to 4-5 rounds that take at least 4-5 times as long to load.  I find that single loading after you expend the magazine is faster on a bolt gun, but you still are limited to 10 rounds on the gun if you use a stock pack with bullet loops. Lethality is pretty much the same with proper bullet placement between the two rounds at LE sniping distances (basically across the street).  Of course, at longer ranges that I'm sure the .mil sniper encounters, the .308 comes into it's own as far as lethality is concerned.  True long-range shots are about as common as lethal frog attacks in the LE world.  At most of the schools I've been to, you spend more time at longer ranges than you do at the 50 yard line, where real research on the subject has shown that almost all LE sniper shots take place within.   Of course this is all my own opinion, but I think a precision AR is much more suited to LE sniper work than the .308 bolt gun.  It took me awhile to break away from the older school of thought that the .30 bolt gun was more suitable, since LE sniping grew from military sniping.  The needs of one just aren't the same as the needs of the other.  I have spent quite a bit of my LE sniper trianing doing things like range estimation and unknown distance shooting when on real deployments I have never been more than 125 yards away from where the BG was (and that was a fluke because the BG lived right on the edge of a park and I was able to set up on the other side in what had to be the greatest position of all time - only to have him give up within about 20 minutes - which I'm happy with). Well, that's all I have to say on the subject for now.

Interesting and informative read on the thoughts of REAL working LE sharpshooter. Obviously you are well versed in the tested and the text book and are willing to look outside the box and do your own testing / thinking.

Out of curiousity - have you gained many converts amongst your peers? As you travel to training and meet LE SS from other areas - what are they doing?

Thanks.

Quoted: In the .308 I shoot 168 grain black hills that is very accurate. In the AR, I shoot the 77 grain 5.56 black hills that is also very accurate. At the last school I went to, the AR and .308 did about the same in the wind. Almost identical wind drift. They were both equally accurate out to the max range we shot (700 yards). The AR had less drop at all ranges, but was most noticable inside 200. Just to keep facts as facts... a 168 grain Sierra .30 bullet traveling at 2750 from the barrel and the 77 grain .223 round both with a muzzle velocity of 2750 do not have the same wind drift as was stated.  The 77 grain ammo has 40% more wind drift.  If you compare 168 grain at 2650 and 77 grain at 2750 the 77 grain ammo has 27.8" wind drift at 500 yards with a full value 10mph wind.  The 168 at 2650 has 21.8" at 500 yards so that would be 27% more wind drift.  27-40% more wind drift is not "the same" at all.  Additionally the .223 is not a lot flatter shooting comparing 168 grain to 77 grain ammo.  Sure there is a TINY advantage inside 100 yards but by before 200 yards the slower 168 grain ammo has already dropped less.  These are unalterable facts.  Just becasue someone is mistaking a height over bore being greater as much flatter shooting (or is unintentionally misrepresenting that fact is the difference instead of the ammo) does not make it so whether they are a LE sniper or not.  The advantage for a .223 AR is MINISCULE under 200 yards when you compare 77 grain ammo to 168 grain .308 ammo.  The .308 has less drop at 200 yards and all further ranges in this scenario as well and it becomes a bigger difference the further the shot. Over penetration?  Use 155 AMAX.  For 200 yards and beyond .308 rules .223 from a ballisitcs perspecitve both externally and terminally.  This comparison I quoted read oddly because of the height over bore differences for the two guns.  a .308 AR would have been superior to the .223 AR but the height over bore issues allowed for less elevation clicks and the false appearance of less drop.  The windage was never the same.

DevL I am sure your better at setting up balistic programs than I am (I am never really sure which drag function to use) but for me and in my actual shooting experience - out through 750 yrds 77's and 175s behave pretty much the same in the wind. And with both of my loads my 200 yrd dope is .4 MILs elevation. Not saying your results or inputs are wrong - just telling you what my two loads out of my two sticks do (and I know you were talking about 168's too). I guess I am just saying maybe / maybe not.

I did enjoy reading his views b/c they are contrary to so much that has been written on the subject.

Quoted: Relying on paper ballistics without verifying them under real world conditions is a mistake.  You would be amazed at how different a bullet can behave from what the charts say.  SPDSNYPR thanks for the post, and you are right, it will take a huge lawsuit where an agency pays millions because a 168 overpenetrated before they will consider changing caliber or even bullet weight.

I never questioned his results, just the analysis of them.

He says that the 77 gr 223 loads have less drop at all ranges and it is just not true. The reason he is able to get by without a canted base on his AR but not on his 308 bolt gun is because the 2.5" mounting height of the scope compared to the around 1.5" height of the scope mount on the bolt gun. If he was shooting the 223 from a bolt gun he would see this.

There is also no way a light 77 gr bullet has less wind drift than a 168 gr bullet at 700 yards. I may not have LE sniper experience, but my range cards for the precision rifles I use when I make it to the local sniper matches matches (223 AR, Grendel AR, and Rem 700 in 308) jives with the shooting I have done, and the info is different than what he is saying.

Hell, I agree with almost everything else in his post, and was myself about to post a "Thanks for the info" but when devl just tried so point out why he was seeing what he was seeing, and that his analysis of that was a little off he got all upset that someone would question what he was saying which is funny cuz I thought devl handled his post very well, no crit, just trying to clarify the info. and he posted the actual numbers, not just a story.

Well I am going to publicly apologize here.  I kinda got pissy at Devl because I misread his post and it kind of got my hackles up (a personality flaw I guess).  To be honest, I misread the very first sentence as "Just keep to facts" instead of what he actually said.  It kinda put in my mind a tone which he probably didn't mean, and I guess I got a little defensive thinking he was basically telling me to STFU.  Naturally I feel like an idiot now after getting defensive and not realizing what he actually said until a couple of pages later.

Sorry.  I'm a retard sometimes.

Quoted: Well I am going to publicly apologize here.  I kinda got pissy at Devl because I misread his post and it kind of got my hackles up (a personality flaw I guess).  To be honest, I misread the very first sentence as "Just keep to facts" instead of what he actually said.  It kinda put in my mind a tone which he probably didn't mean, and I guess I got a little defensive thinking he was basically telling me to STFU.  Naturally I feel like an idiot now after getting defensive and not realizing what he actually said until a couple of pages later. Sorry.  I'm a retard sometimes.

Seriously, your post was filled with lots of good info, I completely agreed with your reasoning for choosing your AR and the load for your job and think that for the majority of your work it is a good choice. I really didn't mean any disrespect, I was just looking for clarification in your experience with the difference in your loads, your shooting experience, and what I know from my paper punching and ballistic table.

I'm also sorry if my posts came off in any other way.

The question is what are you using it for? Decide that and then pick your tool.

For long range work using my definition of 500-1500 meters a bolt gun is the way to go. 1500m to most means .338, but .300WM's with proper load selection are starting to get attention for use beyound 1000. For me at least going beyound 800 rules out .308 in general. Here is a test mule rifle Savage 110 in .300WM we are working on:


Inside 500 meters, maybe 600, the .223 is very effective. Fast follow up shots, accuracy, AND using the same caliber ammo has the rest of the team is a big plus. If you get involved in a close range fight you have no major disadvantages. Here is a test mule AR based DMR that will rapid fire 20 rounds into a 1 inch square at 100 m., prone off a GripPod Bipod with boring consistancy:


AR's based on 7.62mm, 6.8mm or 6.5 all have a place, the question always goes back to what you need/can afford.

Quoted: Here is a test mule AR based DMR that will rapid fire 20 rounds into a 1 inch square, prone off a GripPod Bipod with boring consistancy: pro-patria.us/DMR1.jpg

If you don't mind me asking, what are the specs on that barrel (length, profile, twist, material, etc.) Thanks

Model 1 upper, 20" ER Shaw chrome moly unlined 1/9 heavy barrel, 18" of bore with a Vandenburg Custom Break, MI freefloat rail.

Close up of the Vandenburg Brake which is bored through the barrel. A interesting option in ban states:


Note I have not claimed this is the best, simply how a particular individual rifle performs with factory 52, 68, or 69 gr Match ammo from Blackhills (Blue or Red Box) and Corbon. Since it is 1-9 I have not even looked at how it does with 77gr loads.

It is also not a duty rifle, it's a test rifle built to a certain price specification.

Quoted: Model 1 upper, 20" ER Shaw chrome moly unlined 1/9 heavy barrel, 18" of bore with a Vandenburg Custom Break, MI freefloat rail. Close up of the Vandenburg Brake which is bored through the barrel. A interesting option in ban states: pro-patria.us/DMR4.jpg Note I have not claimed this is the best, simply how a particular individual rifle performs with factory 52, 68, or 69 gr Match ammo from Blackhills (Blue or Red Box) and Corbon. Since it is 1-9 I have not even looked at how it does with 77gr loads. It is also not a duty rifle, it's a test rifle built to a certain price specification.

That's cool. Sometimes it's not about the gear, it's the person behind the trigger - thanks for the info

Quoted: Since it is 1-9 I have not even looked at how it does with 77gr loads.

Go ahead and try the 77 grain loads.  Mine is a 1-9 and they shoot very well - better than anything else I've tried in it.  It's worth a box of ammo to find out.  And I was told by many that a 1-9 wouldn't stabilize the 77s at all.  I was most pleasantly surprised when it did.

Once again - try for yourself.  Don't assume what people tell you on the internet is true.

Quoted: Go ahead and try the 77 grain loads.  Mine is a 1-9 and they shoot very well - better than anything else I've tried in it.  It's worth a box of ammo to find out.  And I was told by many that a 1-9 wouldn't stabilize the 77s at all.  I was most pleasantly surprised when it did. Once again - try for yourself.  Don't assume what people tell you on the internet is true.

Roger, I just haven't gotten around to it. General thought seems to be that 77's and 75's don't shoot well in many 1-9 barrels, mileage may very in yours. To many possible variables to say if the twist is the sole fault. Since I'm getting what I need out of 68's and 69's we haven't done the 77's.

That said, we are tring to close out a big project and the work on both rifles has been shelved while we finish the current project. Once we close it out......

Quoted: Quoted: www.adcofirearms.com/random/mk12classic.jpg Is this a "real" military ammo can loaded w/ MK 262 Mod 1 rounds or just a fancy stencil job? Sorry for the sidetrack, I never saw one of these before..... mike Real ammo, real can, real upper on an M16 lower. And for something else nostalgic you havent seen: www.adcofirearms.com/random/mod0.jpg Dont worry about the hijack, that was already done by a bunch of folks who dont know what they are talking about

Can't let that last part go. You are the person who stated sniper rifles are bolt guns. That is not longer the case. Several of us who have semi auto sniper rifles showed you our rigs we also refrenced the Military's new M110 sniper rifle. Yet you say we are the ones who don't know what we are talking about. Hmm.
Pat

I'm not trying argue with anyone here but I would never use a .223 for sniping in L.E., there is not enough energy in it and there is no 75/77 bonded bullets out that I'm aware of. I don't think I would trust the 65 grain bonded bullets but they maybe okay. As far as over penetration with a .308 that is true with certain loads but the 168 TAP round will fragment violently and not penetrate as much as a 168 SMK, we tested it when we switched over to TAP from FGMM. Now when it comes to a glass barrier round then I will concede it will penetrate more than most rounds. But because cops will encounter glass in a shooting be it from a traffic stop to a observer/sniper the proper .308 load will be a better choice each time. BTW you would surprised how much the 168 TAP round breaks up on contact with most materials...

Quoted: I'm not trying argue with anyone here but I would never use a .223 for sniping in L.E., there is not enough energy in it and there is no 75/77 bonded bullets out that I'm aware of. I don't think I would trust the 65 grain bonded bullets but they maybe okay. As far as over penetration with a .308 that is true with certain loads but the 168 TAP round will fragment violently and not penetrate as much as a 168 SMK, we tested it when we switched over to TAP from FGMM. Now when it comes to a glass barrier round then I will concede it will penetrate more than most rounds. But because cops will encounter glass in a shooting be it from a traffic stop to a observer/sniper the proper .308 load will be a better choice each time. BTW you would surprised how much the 168 TAP round breaks up on contact with most materials...

+1

The Anchorage PD used to have .223 guns for instances where they wanted limited penetration but they soon went all .308 winchester. They use SR25's. They found that the .223 was not reliable through glass. In fact for shots through glass they used a bonded core bullet and they use 110 grain tap for general use. They say it has worked well for them.

Glass is hard on all bullets but the .223 is almost useless on glass.
Pat

Cor Bon 62 gr DPX (Barnes TSX bullet) works really well on automobile glass and then good ballistic gelatin penetration.  Retains almost 100% weight and expands well.
Downside very expensive for .223, actaully more expensive then most .308 loads.

RRA15

Not a .223 but my system anyway, 6.5 Grendel, SS scope.href=http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6453/001eq7.th.jpg

You have to use an AR10 for long range, the 5.56 dosent hit hard enough at distance. Try shooting a deer with it and see what happens.

This one is a 26in cut rifled hand lapped barrel.

Here are my two. The top being the girlfriends that currently has a ciener installed.

I do way to much shooting to spend money on 6.8mm or .308 at this time. So I wouldn't get much good out of a sniper/varmint rifle that I can't afford to master.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not trying argue with anyone here but I would never use a .223 for sniping in L.E., there is not enough energy in it and there is no 75/77 bonded bullets out that I'm aware of. I don't think I would trust the 65 grain bonded bullets but they maybe okay. As far as over penetration with a .308 that is true with certain loads but the 168 TAP round will fragment violently and not penetrate as much as a 168 SMK, we tested it when we switched over to TAP from FGMM. Now when it comes to a glass barrier round then I will concede it will penetrate more than most rounds. But because cops will encounter glass in a shooting be it from a traffic stop to a observer/sniper the proper .308 load will be a better choice each time. BTW you would surprised how much the 168 TAP round breaks up on contact with most materials... +1 The Anchorage PD used to have .223 guns for instances where they wanted limited penetration but they soon went all .308 winchester. They use SR25's. They found that the .223 was not reliable through glass. In fact for shots through glass they used a bonded core bullet and they use 110 grain tap for general use. They say it has worked well for them. Glass is hard on all bullets but the .223 is almost useless on glass. Pat

I'm wondering which .308 bullet didn't perform as well as a .223 bullet through glass.  I don't believe spdsnyper said.  I'm really skeptical about that, but I've never tried it, so I would be one of those guys without real knowledge, only what I've read.  But common sense would tell me, heavier bullet, less deflection, but maybe I'm all wet.

Quoted: i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/GAPAR102.jpg Here is a pic of my stick. Pat

Here is something I havent seen in a long fucking time, you have ajustments on your stock, for bullet drop?

wow. Thanks for a great picture man.  

OK - sorry about that.  All I have shot through windshield glass is the 77 grain black hills, 55 grain black hills and the 168 grain black hills.  I cannot say how they would do in ballistic geletin - I just shot paper or cardboard targets and manequine heads - amost all within 100 yards.  I'm sure that - since the .308 starts with a lot more weight - it will obviously have more to do damage with once it gets through.  But does this offset the ability to dump a second and third round in the same spot quickly?  I don't know.  I guess that would depend on the scenario.  That sniper shot somewhere in CA where the asian gang took over a store comes to mind (where after the .308 round bounced off the glass and missed, the BG started shooting hostages).  Maybe being able to launch several in close succession would have changed the outcome of that.

The .223 seemed to always hit closer to POA than the .308.  Of course, I wasn't shooting at the same cars at the same time - so maybe this had to do with the makeup and angle of the glass.  I pretty much figured out that shooting through glass was bad.  Can I hit the target - yep.  Can I hit a small portion of the target and expect the bullet to do what I want it to?  I have serious doubts.  Again those quick follow-up shots start to sound real good.

I did test the Federal tactical bonded through glass - and it was better than the 168 grain match.  The only problem was it was terribly innacurate in our 700P's.  I mean like 3 MOA type terrible.  I was shocked how this stuff could make a 3/4 MOA rifle into a shotgun.

Now I've never fired an AMAX .308 because, well - my department never bought me any.  Maybe with a accurate .308 gas gun, it would be the grail.  I just don't have to money to find out.  

What bullet is the Federal Tactical Bonded using?

Is it the Nosler Accubond bullet?   If so that's surprising considering how high quality and consistent most Nosler BT style bullets are.

I believe it was the Fed trophy bonded 165 gr bullet.  I think I actually still have some of it.  Our rifles hated it.

Quoted: Quoted: i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/GAPAR102.jpg Here is a pic of my stick. Pat Here is something I havent seen in a long fucking time, you have ajustments on your stock, for bullet drop? wow. Thanks for a great picture man.

Yes for bullet drop.
Pat

I do the same - just in sharpie.  That's high end doing it like that.

Im thinking of putting a sniper package together so this thread was very informative for me and I wish to Thank everyone for the info they provided, also wish to Thank those who provided pics, very sharp rigs

Quoted: OK - sorry about that.  All I have shot through windshield glass is the 77 grain black hills, 55 grain black hills and the 168 grain black hills.  I cannot say how they would do in ballistic geletin - I just shot paper or cardboard targets and manequine heads - amost all within 100 yards.  I'm sure that - since the .308 starts with a lot more weight - it will obviously have more to do damage with once it gets through.  But does this offset the ability to dump a second and third round in the same spot quickly?  I don't know.  I guess that would depend on the scenario.  That sniper shot somewhere in CA where the asian gang took over a store comes to mind (where after the .308 round bounced off the glass and missed, the BG started shooting hostages).  Maybe being able to launch several in close succession would have changed the outcome of that. The .223 seemed to always hit closer to POA than the .308.  Of course, I wasn't shooting at the same cars at the same time - so maybe this had to do with the makeup and angle of the glass.  I pretty much figured out that shooting through glass was bad.  Can I hit the target - yep.  Can I hit a small portion of the target and expect the bullet to do what I want it to?  I have serious doubts.  Again those quick follow-up shots start to sound real good. I did test the Federal tactical bonded through glass - and it was better than the 168 grain match.  The only problem was it was terribly innacurate in our 700P's.  I mean like 3 MOA type terrible.  I was shocked how this stuff could make a 3/4 MOA rifle into a shotgun. Now I've never fired an AMAX .308 because, well - my department never bought me any.  Maybe with a accurate .308 gas gun, it would be the grail.  I just don't have to money to find out.

Well again, I've never done it, so you have more experience than I.  I bet if you used a different .308 bullet you'd probably get better glass results.  Just as with the bonded .223.  I would've thought even a BTHP in .308 would be a lot better than anything in .223 but thinking and doing are two different things.  

Another thing you mentioned was racking the bolt after the recoil.  I don't have a accurized bolt gun and I could be all wet.  But I do have a bolt gun and if I wanted to be fast with it, I rack the bolt during recoil.  I suppose that might mess up accuracy due to it may change the characteristics of a solid follow through.  But at 50 yards, I doubt it would be that much to matter.  But again, I haven't messed with one enough to know.  Just a thought.  

I actually like both platforms, but some of your info didn't really jive in my brain and I was tending to agree with Devl.  So take that's for what it's worth, which is next to nothing because I'm just an enthusiast.  Not X SF or LEO.  I have an M1A that can be pretty accurate and that is  good option for a .308 Semi.  Although I think the AR platform has it beat accuracy wise.  I think.  But under 200 yards I think it would work real well for precision shooting.  Mine has put 10 rounds into 3-1/2" at 200 yards with Portugese surplus.  Not exactly super precision, but if you're not shooting terribly long that much, it would seem like it would be acceptable accuracy.

I would like to throw some of my useless knowledge in here Having been both in
law enforcement and a US Army sniper, and also having used a DMR rifle in combat, I
really like the 5.56 round for its use intended, even as a DMR rifle. Would I ever use it
as an LE sniper rifle? Maybe. If it was close range yes, as Devl pointed out past
300 the 5.56 gets thrown around greatly by the wind. Manageable? Yes. Precise for LE
work? Never... Too much liability in that for me.

The 5.56 is a flat shooting round for sure, but it loses energy faster than a 308 does
and at distance will drop substancially greater than a 308, making it actually drop wildly
past 600. Have I shot this round out past that? Yes, the 77grn Mk262 I have shot out
to over 1000 meters, and the 62 grn M855 I have shot out the same distance side by
side. bot of them would reach, but at that distance I would not have trusted them to do
much damage at all. Could I hit the target? Yes, but the wind was giving so much push
to the round that I would have to take a couple shots to get it on right.

As for glass, I have seen 5.56 go through glass and do its job, but it was always
multiple shots. Not that one shot would do it or not, but even the few times I have
seen it, it was anecdotal at best. 308 would deffinately be a better choice however.

And JJREA, ALWAYS follow through with your shots.

Just my 2 pennies... Like em, love em, hate em, it dont matter.

Quoted: www.adcofirearms.com/random/mk12classic.jpg Is this a "real" military ammo can loaded w/ MK 262 Mod 1 rounds or just a fancy stencil job? Sorry for the sidetrack, I never saw one of these before..... mike

Ive seen a few

But only in Magazines

Quoted: I'm just an enthusiast.  Not X SF or LEO.  .

Same with me

All the Men Folk in my Family were in the Military
Except for Me

Tell ya what?

I can out shoot  them all    

My dad did get me started with basic`s
when I was 5 or 6  breathing/holding/trigger

But liveing in the country and being a only child
ther wasnt much to do Except
Hunt/Shoot
Trap
Fish

So I just practice shooting in my back yard from BBgun to rifle/shotgun/handgun

I guess Im saying you dont have to be in LEO or Mil to be a GOOD SHOT

BTW
I bought my Daughter a crossman pellet gun at the age of 9
Her Very First Group All rds. Touching !!] Very Proud
She shoots prone useing my army blanket as a rest.

So some day maybe she will out shoot me

Quoted: I would go 6.8 if I had it to do over again probably, but this one still shoots amazing groups. i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/Sniper%20Rifle/DSCF1867.jpg

AWESOME

I like the BADGER HG as well!
You Sir have Good Taste

Quoted: Quoted: I would go 6.8 if I had it to do over again probably, but this one still shoots amazing groups. i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/Sniper%20Rifle/DSCF1867.jpg AWESOME I like the BADGER HG as well! You Sir have Good Taste

Thanks...

tag

Quoted: I would build something in 6.5 or 30 cal.  I'm thinking: 6.5 Grendel 260 Rem 308 300WSM 260 Rem and 300 WSM are my favorites of those.  Both require an AR 10 platform.  The 260 might work out best because you can use a standard AR10 BCG. Key pieces for this kind of build would be(in order): US Optics scope Weight - Yes nothing helps you hit at long range like weight.  The rifle with scope should weight ~13 - 15 lbs complete with scope and accesories. Lilja or Krieger stainless barrel blank with extension fit to your bolt and other machining by a top quality gunsmith - 24+" Tactical Intervention Specialties sling Magpul stock - you will probably need to customize this to add enough weight here. Smooth bottom forend for sand bags and/or a bipod.

I wonder how the 6.5mm bullet in the 300wsm case would do.  That sounds like a nasty combo to me...

Quoted: I would like to throw some of my useless knowledge in here Having been both in law enforcement and a US Army sniper, and also having used a DMR rifle in combat, I really like the 5.56 round for its use intended, even as a DMR rifle. Would I ever use it as an LE sniper rifle? Maybe. If it was close range yes, as Devl pointed out past 300 the 5.56 gets thrown around greatly by the wind. Manageable? Yes. Precise for LE work? Never... Too much liability in that for me. The 5.56 is a flat shooting round for sure, but it loses energy faster than a 308 does and at distance will drop substancially greater than a 308, making it actually drop wildly past 600. Have I shot this round out past that? Yes, the 77grn Mk262 I have shot out to over 1000 meters, and the 62 grn M855 I have shot out the same distance side by side. bot of them would reach, but at that distance I would not have trusted them to do much damage at all. Could I hit the target? Yes, but the wind was giving so much push to the round that I would have to take a couple shots to get it on right. As for glass, I have seen 5.56 go through glass and do its job, but it was always multiple shots. Not that one shot would do it or not, but even the few times I have seen it, it was anecdotal at best. 308 would deffinately be a better choice however. And JJREA, ALWAYS follow through with your shots. Just my 2 pennies... Like em, love em, hate em, it dont matter.

Understandable.  But remember - in LE work, sniping is invariably a close-range (50 yards or less) scenario.  This is where any LEO should go to find out the distances, times, and all sorts of other things about LE sniper shootings.  It is as close to an all-encompassing report as you will find based on real-world LE shootings.  Once again - this has only to do with LE sniper use, and is not valid for mil snipers, who see engagements at MUCH longer distances.

I was thinking today about how important long range shooting is to so many LEO snipers and trainers.  Choosing a LE sniper round based on how it does in the wind at 300 yards is like choosing a duty pistol round based on how well it shoots at 75 yards.  It's really worthless information.  Almost all LE agancies have gone to evaluating pistol ammo based on penetration/expansion criteria to include performance through intermediate barriers.  Anything over 18" of penetration is considered too dangerous because of the risk of over-penetration and harm to bystanders.  12 to 15" is considered ideal.

But we evaluate sniper rifle ammo based on accuracy and how it does in the wind at completely unrealistic ranges?  Why is the standard different?  If we expect our pistol ammo to perform in people (represented by blocks of fancy jello), why should our rifle ammo be held to different standards?  Yes, the rifle ammo should be very accurate.  But why is it OK to have a rifle round zip through the BG and keep on trucking downrange?  To say that it is unacceptable doesn't mesh well with the fact that almost everybody who shows up to school is using a 168gr and even 175 gr match bullet and a bolt rifle.  I've seen a few gas guns, but they are not common at all.  I have seen nothing but HPBT match rounds in .308.  

Maybe the hornady 155 gr rounds are the fix - but until we start thinking differently about our requirements for the ammo, we're still going to be having people arguing about ballistics tables and not performance on target at reasonable ranges.

There I go ranting and thinking "out loud" again.  Sorry about that.  Hope I didn't offend anyone with that.

BTW - does anyone have a link to ballistic jello results regarding rifle rounds through intermediate barriers?  I did some searching last night and can't find what I was looking for.  I know I've seen it before somewhere.

I am not really disagreeing with you on your choice, nor am I in total agreeance either.
I think that I am not well informed enough to make that decision, I am just throwing in
on a couple of things that are a bit wrong with the round and some things that are
good about it. I do think that glass penetration would be my main concern in it.

Quoted: I am not really disagreeing with you on your choice, nor am I in total agreeance either. I think that I am not well informed enough to make that decision, I am just throwing in on a couple of things that are a bit wrong with the round and some things that are good about it. I do think that glass penetration would be my main concern in it.

Winchester used to make a round that was actually pretty damn good at glass penetration (.308 Win), and I can't recall what it was called.  It was definitely designed for deeper penetration and heavier game animals...but for the life of me I'm drawing a blank.  I might have a box or two left at the house (definitely black box stuff, meaning Supreme was on the box somewhere).  It was moly coated and hollow point, IIRC...

Quoted: Dont worry about the hijack, that was already done by a bunch of folks who dont know what they are talking about

Quoted: Quoted: I am not really disagreeing with you on your choice, nor am I in total agreeance either. I think that I am not well informed enough to make that decision, I am just throwing in on a couple of things that are a bit wrong with the round and some things that are good about it. I do think that glass penetration would be my main concern in it. Winchester used to make a round that was actually pretty damn good at glass penetration (.308 Win), and I can't recall what it was called.  It was definitely designed for deeper penetration and heavier game animals...but for the life of me I'm drawing a blank.  I might have a box or two left at the house (definitely black box stuff, meaning Supreme was on the box somewhere).  It was moly coated and hollow point, IIRC...

I was meaning 5.56 on the glass penetration thing actually.

Yeah - I can see that.  Less mass, less energy equals less ability to do work.  Simple physics.  

And I hate to rub salt in old wounds, but while looking for figures on performance through glass on the .308 at federal's website, I just ran into their ballistics chart which showed the .223 77 grain they load as having less drop at all ranges out to 500 yards with equal sight height compared to their .308 168 grain match.  Not by much, but it is on their site that way.  Odd that my results were similar.  Now wind drift is a different story.  More drift for the .223 - about 1/2 inch at 300 yards.  Almost 2 inches at 500 yards - not exactly earth shattering, and again supports my observations of them being "about the same".  And before I am accused of misleading anyone and not sticking to facts, here is the link.

Now back to terminal ballistics.  Looking at their results for some of their ballistics workshops, the bonded core .223 rounds seem to do fairly well through glass.  The 77 grain is OK (compared to the 55 grain non-bonded stuff), but penetration is reduced quite a bit.  They only list penetration/expansion and do not touch on deviation from POA thru glass - I'm sure that would be a nightmare to test with all the different types of glass out there.  

They have no data on the .308.  I think that's kind of odd, since it is the staple of LE sniping and federal sells so much of it.  I went to one of these ATK ballistics workshops a few years ago (I think '06) - very interesting and informative.  But that one, which was held in Edmond, OK, is not on their site.  SOmeone shot a .308 thru the gel there.  All I know is it went through both blocks, so how much info can you get from that?  Someone also shot a .45 colt with hard cast lead bullets that penetrated spectacularly.  Those were some "just for fun" shots at the end of the day.

So . . . . my wish.  Fed or BH makes a heavy (75 or 77) grain mag-length bonded .223 round that does fairly well through glass and matches the trajectory of their 77 grain match ammo (which does about perfect in bare geletin) out to say 200 yards.  That and Gwin Stefani for a few nights would make me about the happiest man on earth.  

Quoted: Yeah - I can see that.  Less mass, less energy equals less ability to do work.  Simple physics.   And I hate to rub salt in old wounds, but while looking for figures on performance through glass on the .308 at federal's website, I just ran into their ballistics chart which showed the .223 77 grain they load as having less drop at all ranges out to 500 yards with equal sight height compared to their .308 168 grain match.  Not by much, but it is on their site that way.  Odd that my results were similar.  Now wind drift is a different story.  More drift for the .223 - about 1/2 inch at 300 yards.  Almost 2 inches at 500 yards - not exactly earth shattering, and again supports my observations of them being "about the same".  And before I am accused of misleading anyone and not sticking to facts, here is the link. Now back to terminal ballistics.  Looking at their results for some of their ballistics workshops, the bonded core .223 rounds seem to do fairly well through glass.  The 77 grain is OK (compared to the 55 grain non-bonded stuff), but penetration is reduced quite a bit.  They only list penetration/expansion and do not touch on deviation from POA thru glass - I'm sure that would be a nightmare to test with all the different types of glass out there.   They have no data on the .308.  I think that's kind of odd, since it is the staple of LE sniping and federal sells so much of it.  I went to one of these ATK ballistics workshops a few years ago (I think '06) - very interesting and informative.  But that one, which was held in Edmond, OK, is not on their site.  SOmeone shot a .308 thru the gel there.  All I know is it went through both blocks, so how much info can you get from that?  Someone also shot a .45 colt with hard cast lead bullets that penetrated spectacularly.  Those were some "just for fun" shots at the end of the day. So . . . . my wish.  Fed or BH makes a heavy (75 or 77) grain mag-length bonded .223 round that does fairly well through glass and matches the trajectory of their 77 grain match ammo (which does about perfect in bare geletin) out to say 200 yards.  That and Gwin Stefani for a few nights would make me about the happiest man on earth.

You can do a hell of a lot better than Gwin for a few nights...

Quoted: That and Gwin Stefani for a few nights would make me about the happiest man on earth.

Back off my girlfriend dude...

Like I said, I like the 5.56 a lot. There is a reason it is used in matches. I like the accuracy in it a lot.

Quoted: You can do a hell of a lot better than Gwin for a few nights...

Quoted: You can do a hell of a lot better than Gwin for a few nights...

Well see now you're gonna start an argument.  

More than a few nights and - just like any other woman, I'd lose my idealistic view of her pretty quick.

Screw this AR stuff . . . . . we need a Gwin Stefani pic thread.  

The .223 77 grain match Black Hills load does 2700 fps, give or take, from a 20" barrel and the 168 grain does 2650 from a 20" barrel.  By 200 yards the 168's superior BC has actually allowed the 168 to catch up and pass the 77 grain and it will have less drop from that range on.  I have seen a alot of references to .223 this and 77 grain .223 that. I then reread this thread very carefully and you mentioned the first thread 5.56 77 grain aka MK262.  It a much hotter load and does 2850 from a 20" barrel perhaps this is where all the confusion over the load comes from.  Standard .308 pressure 168 Sierra Match King bullets loaded 100fps slower than 77 grain Sierra Match King bullets (as would be the case in 20" barrels) do not allow the 77 grain to have less drop at over 200 yards... increase the initial velocity and that changes.  I am speaking strickly from a bullet fired level and perpendicular to the ground... how much it drops due to deceleration and time to target.  Any hold offs or dialed elevations are highly variable on manufactuieres charts due to both optic height that certain drops are calculated with a particular weapon, the range they are calculated to be zeroed, and the barrel length of the listed inital velocity.

If other .308 bullets were used such as 155 AMAX or 155 Scenar the advantage for the less drop and drift would occur at an earlier range due to the increased velocity.

Since there are several other Badger Stabilizers in this thread I'll add mine.  DPMS .308  Love the rifle would chose the same everything again. Although would prefer a little lighter barrel like a 20 heavy rather then a 24 bull. but that isn't a factory option.

Quoted: Since there are several other Badger Stabilizers in this thread I'll add mine.  DPMS .308  Love the rifle would chose the same everything again. Although would prefer a little lighter barrel like a 20 heavy rather then a 24 bull. but that isn't a factory option. www.kansasbirdhunting.com/images/dpms2.jpg

That's nice.  ADCO can cut down and taper your barrel.  Might try it.  

Been pretty reliable for you and how's she shoot?  Are mags hard to find and how much are they?  Were I to trade my bolt gun in for a gas gun, I'd do something similar to that, but maybe with an 18" bbl and threaded for a can.  Of course - this is all just a dream.

Nice stick, though.  Needs a scary guy stencil though.  

COURTESY OF TACTICAL FORUMS, POSTED BY DOC GKR here:   http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001277


There has been a significant amount of scientific testing yielding repeatable, verifiable, irrefutable factual data rather than mere opinions. For a perimeter role a 5.56 mm AR using appropriate ammunition is probably just fine; it might even be OK as a sniper support weapon as long as shots into vehicles or through intermediate barriers are not a common concern. Having said that, as a LE or military true sniper caliber, as contrasted with DMR or patrol/perimeter applications, the 5.56 mm just does not cut it, as there are far better choices: In a bolt gun, a 16-20" .308 is ideal and if a semi-auto is desired, a 12-16" 6.8 mm is optimal. Night vision capability w/ IR laser designator is an operational necessity; ASA data shows 43% (95/219) of sniper incidents occured at night. Visible lasers are another option that should be strongly considered. Good sound suppressors are also becoming mandatory items.

While snipers like to talk of head shots, there are an inordinate number of torso hits in the law enforcement forensic literature. As posted above, ASA indicates 47% of sniper shots were to the head (104/219), while 53% were to the body (115/219). As a result, law enforcement sniper bullets need to exhibit terminal performance which can consistently induce rapid incapacitation with shots to the torso, as well as the head. If you use a 5.56 mm, what happens when if you have to shoot through a window or into a vehicle, how about if the bad guy has something over his chest--perhaps AK mags? 5.56 mm is suddenly not looking so good:




Superior terminal effects and barrier penetration ability are why .308 dominates LE sniper use; .308 accounts for 74.5% (161/216) of sniper shots chronicled in the ASA data base. Historically U.S. law enforcement and military snipers have chosen the extremely accurate, competition proven .308 Sierra Match King OTM bullets in 168 gr (M852) or 175 gr (M118LR). Unfortunately, the SMK’s have significant terminal performance problems, including very inconsistent behavior, that render them a poor choice for LE sniping. In addition, SMK’s will frequently exit the target and pose a significant downrange hazard to innocent bystanders and friendly personnel. In fact, according to ASA data, 90% of SMK shots have exited the suspect and posed a downrange hazard.



As discussed by both Fackler and Haag, the cause of SMK inconsistent terminal ballistic behavior appears to be associated with the diameter of the hollow point at the tip of the Match King bullet. Match Kings produced in the 1980’s had tip diameters of 0.028” to 0.038”, while recent Match King tip diameters appear to range from 0.012” to 0.024”. The smaller the tip diameter of the hollow point, the more the Match King tends to behave like a FMJ bullet; conversely, increasing the tip diameter enhances bullet upset in tissue. Fackler and Haag both have reported that when the SMK open tip is enlarged to at least 0.055”, the Match King offers consistent expansion and fragmentation with virtually no change in accuracy.

As a result of their mission profile and typical engagement distances, military snipers are less affected by the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s than U.S. law enforcement snipers. For law enforcement use, the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s can have tragic human and litigious consequences. U.S. law enforcement snipers have two choices to avoid inconsistent SMK terminal performance: Demand that Sierra market specific law enforcement Match Kings with hollow point diameters of at least 0.055” or use a different bullet which offers both acceptable accuracy and more reliable terminal performance. Luckily, several bullets are available which more than meet the requirements of LE snipers. The .308 Hornady TAP loads using polymer tip AMAX bullets offer consistently superior terminal performance compared to standard SMK bullets, although the SMK's are generally a bit more accurate. Are LE snipers willing to trade a slight bit of accuracy to eliminate SMK variability & gain consistently improved terminal effects?



The 155 gr AMAX consistently offers nearly perfect terminal performance characteristics--ideal penetration, good fragmentation, and perfectly placed large temporary cavity. All of the .308 AMAX bullets we are aware of fired in OIS incidents to date have remained in the suspects' torsos; damage on autopsy has been quite impressive and exactly as predicted based on lab analysis. The 110 gr AMAX has a shallower penetration depth with a rounded temporary stretch cavity, while the 168 gr and 178 gr AMAX have deeper penetration than the 155 AMAX, with a more oval, narrower temporary stretch cavity.






Intermediate barriers are a significant issue for snipers. As noted, ASA states 23% (50/219) of law enforcement sniper shots involved intermediate barriers, typically glass. Unfortunately, the SMK is NOT a good barrier round.



Glass barriers are one of the most difficult challenges for LE snipers. OTM bullets like the SMK’s generally exhibit unfavorable fragmentation and trajectory deviation when fired through glass intermediate barriers, resulting in degradation of terminal wounding effects. Despite gunstore commando lore to the contrary, FMJ bullet terminal performance is extremely erratic against glass. Bonded JSP/PT bullets and true AP bullets like M993 are often able to defeat glass intermediate barriers while retaining their mass, although they exhibit very deep penetration in soft tissue and can be counted upon to exit the suspect and pose a downrange hazard. In addition, they are not always as accurate as other bullet designs. PT bullets, like the Hornady AMAX, offer better performance against glass than OTM bullets like the SMK, but are not the equal of bonded JSP/PT bullets or AP bullets. Currently the best glass barrier loads are the Black Hills loaded Nosler Accubond PT, Hornady Interbond PT, Federal Tactical using the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw JSP, Swift Scirocco bonded PT, as well as Barnes Triple Shock; all create similar deep penetrating wound profiles.




-- For military snipers and others needing long range accuracy, the SMK 175 gr OTM is the way to go.

-- For intermediate barrier penetration, the bonded rounds like the BH loaded Nosler Accubond, Federal loaded TBBC, Hornady Interbond, Swift Scirroco, as well as M993 AP are the best choices.

-- At this time the Hornady 155 TAP offers outstanding accuracy nearly on par with SMK’s, as well as more consistent terminal performance, better incapacitation potential and superior performance through glass intermediate barriers than SMK’s; as a result, the Hornady 155 gr TAP using the polymer tip AMAX bullet is the probably best general purpose choice for LE snipers. BH also loads AMAX bullets. The Nosler 150 gr Ballistic Tip PT, Hornady and Nosler 155 gr OTM, Federal 165 gr TRU JHP, Sierra Game Kings, and Weapons Unlimited Hostage Rescue JHP also work well.



If an organization wishes to retain the ergonomic, versatile AR15 system for sniper use without moving to the larger, heavier, more problematic AR10/SR25/Mk11/M110 systems, then the best option is to use an AR15 chambered in 6.8 mm instead of 5.56 mm. Interestingly, for LE purposes, the 6.8 mm potentially allows an agency to use one caliber for all their shoulder fired weapons. Not only does 6.8 mm caliber offer substantially better terminal effects and intermediate barrier penetration capability than 5.56 mm, it is also an inherently very accurate cartridge. In addition, the 6.8 mm was designed and optimized to work effectively in short barrels of 12 to 16 inches in length. The versatility, compactness, potential accuracy, and effective terminal performance of 6.8 mm allows an LE agency to standardize on one caliber and one semi-auto rifle type for multiple uses, including: patrol, entry, perimeter, sniper support, primary sniper, animal control, and personal close protection details. For information on 6.8 mm ammo choices, see: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001273