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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR Sniper Systems (Page 3 of 3)
I called ADCO about that and the guy who answered the phone (not Steve) wouldn't give me prices or anything other then condescending comments. So If I decide to change I'll probably buy a fancy barrel and put this one on the EE. I love shooting it. It does well with everything I have put through it except South African. that stuff was not accurate (8" at 100 yards) then I got a case stuck. So i got rid of the rest. All other surplus feeds fine and hits in an area about the size of a playing card, BH 168Amax shoots about 1" at 100 yards. I've never fired actual match ammo to see how tight it will get. Mags are $25-30 each, made new by DMPS, with C products about ready to ship theirs at $25. Most guys are getting this rifle in 18" but I wanted the stainless. It is heavy though, with bipod and full mag weighs out at like 15 pounds. I hump it around deer hunting and I weigh 155 lbs. Fired it twice last deer season, two nice kills one through the heart at 140 yards. Both shot from kneeling. to heavy t oshoot standing. 
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What are your thoughts on stepping up to 6.8 for an urban or short to mid range precision gun? I don't think it's filtered into the LE community yet but it seems to me it might be the perfect happy medium - better at taking wind than heavy 5.56 yet not as likely to overpenetrate as .308. Is it accurate enough for a precision round? From the 6.8 shootout Newarguy did it looks like it would fit the bill. Also for budget minded departments it's a very easy upgrade from existing AR platforms, just a barrel, mags, and a bolt. SPD and anyone else with experience feel free to chime in too. I've really enjoyed reading this topic. ETA: Shoulda kept reading. Very interesting that 6.8 is recommended for both Precision work and tactical rifles by Dr. Roberts. Listen, you can hear my wallet crying now. |
Having been both in
+1 As someone who has been there and done that....I would have to admit I'd prefer a AR-15 platform in 6.8 SPC over a bolt gun in .308 or other. There are many advantages to using a semi auto platform and many of the detractions of yesterday have been addressed over the years extremely well. The Marine Corps adopting and using the MK-11 should be proof enough for many. Unless things have changed drastically since my day....the Marine Corps would not allow the adoption of a crap-tastic semi auto that lacked the ability to perform. I love a great well kept bolt gun......but yup, my choice today is a semi auto. |
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Frankly - I have given the 6.8 almost zero consideration. Not that it isn't a good cartridge - but I have just concentrated on those calibers that are readily available in bulk. I have no idea if the 6.8 fits that bill right now. It looks to be a pretty good compromise - not what I expected from what I thought was a round designed for very-short range (inside a room) house clearing type use. This might be the best compromise - the author thinks so and boy does he seem to have done his homework. What is the production like on the 6.8? I have frankly never seen one in person and have not taken great interest in the many threads I have seen on it (which seemed to concentrate on whether the .mil would switch to it - I always thought there was little chance just because of the cost). |
| Actually it was developed to give the M4 a better punch at longer ranges. I don't know nearly as much as some here about it as a lot of people here but it's something I've tried to follow since it began. Handloaders seem to love it, I just wish it was more plentiful in factory loadings. |
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From what I understand, Dr. Gary Roberts had some input into the design of the 6.8. And the 6.8 was designed to give our elite war fighters better terminal ballistics while keeping the platform the same. Per Dr. Roberts not only can the 6.8 SPC be effective in the CQB role, but can also be adopted to a perimiter/precision role. Unfortunately, the initial chamber dimensions for the round was a bit off, I don't know exactly how, but has been supplanted by SPC II, which has the correct rifling twist and chamber dimensions for the cartridge. Once you really start to look at the 6.8 SPC you will begin to see what a versatile cartridge it is. The 6.8 SPC appears to squarely address the 5.56's terminal ballistic limitations. And, for you, it would giveyou the terminal ballistics you need that fall in between the 556 and 762, plus the "controllability" you seem to like so much with your current 556 platform. |
That's what I keep hearing, but the 6.8 SPC was designed specifically for combat/terminal ballistic results. The 6.5 was made to more of a match-type round; however, I'm sure if the properly bullet was made for it, like the TAP round, it would be cool too. I'm just not sure why the 6.5 is not considered as good as the 6.8 SPC by Dr. Roberts. Maybe it has some undersirable characteristics for an all out combat cartridge? |
It is not suitable for use in a belt fed platform for some reason IIRC and that was one of the criteria Dr Roberts had when testing as this was testing for an across the board 5.56 replacement by the military. If it can be proven through testing that the 6.5 load in a 5.56 is equal in its terminal effectiveness for rifles he has said he would endorse it for that purpose. The knock on 6.5 has always been the lack of ballistics testing for the cartridge but that is changing now. |
SSA makes some of the best 6.8 ammo and you can proabably order as much as you need. For some reson the Hornady ammo is not so great especially the 115 grain BTHP loading... it tends to be horrible in almsot any 6.8 rifle. You should also read the 6.8 forums because there are so many different chamberings in barrels out there (original vs sammi vs revised, etc. and you need 1/11 twist vs 1/10 or you get blown primers, and on and on... if you get the right barrel you should have no reliability issues and of course the right ammo. SSA even has a SP pro hunter load that is sub MOA, pretty amazing for a SP hunting round to be that accurate. |
He's Remington and Hornady's biggest 6.8 salesman. But I agree that for LE sniper work it is a good performer. |
You have accuracy that is quite commonly achieved in the Grendel....CONGRATS! IMHO that is the finest LR option in the AR15 platform. |
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In the last year I had the opportunity to speak to a manufacturer of bullet machines (he makes the machines that make projectiles). We were discussing the 6.8 vs 6.5 and specifically the accuracy gap. His opinion was that *if* the 6.8 were ever adopted that future testing would include designing a more accurate projectile for it, but that righ this minute that isn't the primary motivation for the round. As a civi, until it is on the same level of accuracy as a 77 SMK - I'm not interested. However, it is something I am keeping my eye on. |
This is why I've held off on the 6.8. I like everything I've heard about it's performance, but I'll wait until all the bugs get ironed out and I'm sure of it. |
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Probably goes under the "useless info file", but during training today, we were shooting the .308 bolt gun and my .223 AR at 50 yards into cinder blocks to see how they did. We shot both straight into cinder blocks, then thru bowling pins into cinder blocks (to simulate being attacked at the bowling alley - hell I don't know why). Without the pins, the 77 grain and 168 grain rounds both pretty well smashed the blocks. The .308 went all the way through, while the .223 only went maybe 1/3 through the rear face of the back 'wall' of the block. The .223 bullet was found in tiny pieces just inside the rear wall. A few pics.  .223 hole in the front  A top view Didn't get a pic of the .308 damage b/c it was raining so hard, my camera went tits up. Did snap a shot of one of the bolt guns before camera died.  The .308 left it's jacket with some lead fragments between the two 'walls' of the block, but the core did make a hole all the way through. Neither went through the block after going through the bowling pin. The .308 round went through the first wall but didn't even seem to touch the rear wall (bullet frags all inside block. The .223 just dented the outer wall. I'm guessing it pretty well use up all it's energy going through the pin. Well, what does this tell us about the penetration ability between the two? The .308 goes through more stuff. Both will kill a bowling pin. Both will kill a cinder block. The .223 won't kill a cinder block through a bolwing pin - a .308 will wound it pretty bad. Good stuff to know if you're ever in a rifle fight at a bowling alley.  For reference, yesterday I shot some of the same blocks with a 55 grain .223 soft point. Hole in front, little scratch in back - didn't break the block until the second round (no pics). I also shot a block with the .357 sig. Took 4 shots in pretty much the same spot to get completely through the block. Here endeth today's worthless, unscientific experiment. But it's fun to shoot stuff. I'm going to try to get some glass for early next month. |
| Excellent thread. I have a question for those of you that have posted pics. It seems most of you .223/5.56 shooters are running HBARs or something close. I would of expected some full bull barrels on precision guns. Is this just because the full bull is way too heavy for a gun that's going to be moved a lot, and sometimes in a hurry? |
No need for one, my Hbar is plenty accurate that a bull would just add needless weight. |
+1 EXCEPT for the .458SOCOM build I am doing, I am going the BULL profile on the 16" barrel with a Larue FF tube and a Magpul UBR stock. Should be heavy enough to not throw me on my butt or relocate my shoulder....to which I should work out some to gain weight (135  )
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+1. Since in most real life situations, you are likely not going to be prone with a bipod, the extra weight is not something you want or need. You will just tire more quickly in your position, and I have never really seen anything that has shown me that the big gull barrels are any more accurate. |
Not so much. As a Marine Sniper, if I was on a stereotypical stalk, locate and kill with one well aimed shot mission where I was more concerned about true single shot long range accuracy...then yes. I would choose a bolt gun. In fact, a bolt gun would be my SECOND choice for any mission other than one where I could expect to also have to reach out past 700 yards. Which is VERY rare....and I mean....VERY RARE. But if I were on a mission supporting the grunts as is so common now, and could expect there to be Hajis coming out of the woodwork like fire ants after the operation began, then I would NEED and choose a gas gun. What a sniper "prefers" is totally mission dependent. And with the accuracty of gas guns being leaps and bounds better recently than in the past, that capability is utilized now more than ever. |
 
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I put some Marine snipers through one of our courses last Feb. They had an open slot in the course so they let a squad DM from one of the line companies tag along for the course with his (real) Mk12 Mod 1. We didn't have real Mk262 ammo for him so we got him the next best thing...Black Hills match 77gn.(Black Hills makes the Mk262). Even with his Ops Inc 12th model, he was tagging B12 targets out to 700 pretty consistantly after I worked with him a little on how to handle wind and mirage. Also, keep in mind, the Mk 12 only uses an MR/T scope. Not a long range optic. So all in all, that weapon is very effective with the 77gn bullet in the right hands. |
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Again with the salt in old wounds, but maybe it explains something to anyone out there who might care. Just cleaning up my desk, and found ballistics tables made with both my rifles from the same day at the same time after shooting 5 rounds over a chronograph with each. Both my Rem 700 and the AR have 20" barrels. The average for my .308 168 grain was 2660 fps. At 700 yds, it said it was dropping 177.9 inches. For my .223 77gr I had an average of 2775 fps. It showed a drop of 176.7 inches at 700. A difference of a whopping 1.2" at 700 yards - but still shooting flatter. Now, for whatever reason, I recall having to dial less elevation on the .223 (I guess i should say 5.56, since both the barrel and ammo are marked as such - but .223 is faster for me to type) at all ranges than the chart would show - maybe because of the sight height over the bore - I don't know. But based upon my actual comeups, and the actual performance of the bullets in the real world, I guess my statement that the .223 shot flatter than the .308 is true. I'm not into ballistics charts, and frankly, tonight is the most I've looked at the printoffs they gave me (I pretty well know my comeups to 600 going to the last school with both rifles - based solely on going out and shooting and not on ballistics programs). Also, both scopes seemed to be tracking well, and when I used mil holdovers I was still hitting where I should have been. As far as the wind drift - the chart shows the .223 to have 1 MOA more wind drift in a 10 mph full value wind than the .308 at 700 yards. Again, this jives with my statement that they were "about the same." I didn't have all this in front of me when I made my first post, but rather was going from memory. But it turns out after looking at my comeup cards (which I made with my notes from the school) and the charts, what I said was right. The 77 grain 5.56 (there - better) is plenty accurate for what I do, and for my guns, they are pretty close to ballistic twins compared to the .308 - closer than I would notice out to any range I could possibly be expected to shoot. Bullet drop is about the same, and wind drift is about the same. So close, that I think the average shooter in the field will never notice the difference. A benchrest shooter might. Now someone just needs to come up with a good glass round for me that has the same POI of the 77gr sierra out to say 200. That or someone need to donate an accurate 6.8 barrel along with a few thousand rounds of good ammo for me to test.  |
100% agree. I shoot 175's and 77s. The 77s shoot slightly flater as well. As for wind I don't pay a lot of attention to charts either. I use (what I believe to be a Marine) forumla of dist x wind velocity / a constant = MOA of drift and it works equally well for both. SPDSNYPR have you been following the 'barrier blind' ammo development? |
No its not a "1000 yard war". There are some long range shots being taken, but a lot of the stuff is mid range to close range. The urban environment is dictating that. |
Thanks DevL.. I never cease to be amazed.................................. |
Those 80's are single loaded in an AR15, correct? And at that point they are single shot slow fire at the 1000k mark? |
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Yeah the 80 VLD's are used single shot...they are too long to fit into a magazine. Sample of bullet length The 77 grain SMK is about the best for mag-length loads. It's b.c. is only .372 though, and to make it to a 1,000 yards accurately you a higher b.c. than that because .223 and 5.56 can't push big for caliber bullets out fast enough. Put in a 75 Berger VLD with a b.c. of .447 loaded long and pushed to a higher velocity and it changes a lot. Most long range shooters use the 80 JLK or 90 JLK though, .510 b.c. and .580 b.c. respectively. In AR space guns and long-barreled bolt guns they are faster than the 77 SMK mag-length loads and fly waaaaayyyyy more straight and flat. Mag-length AR long range precision shooting with the 223 or 5.56 really can't be compared to anything else. The b.c.'s are so horrible they only are accompanied by 6.8 SPC. It's cool at short-range though... You could do up a .243 Winchester AR-10 with mag-length 95 grain VLD's that would destroy any AR with .224, .277, or .308 bullets. The terminal ballistics would probably be shown to be way better than any 5.56 or 6.8 round as well. |
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They may shoot circles around M14's at 1000, but are they even as powerful as a .22 at that distance? And yeah, single loaded isn't really practical in the field. All this talk about 700 yards this and that. If you're shooting as a sniper that far, the .308 will be much more effective at that range. If the ranges are within maybe 600, I would say the 5.56 is a good choice. Of course, all I know is what I've read. And M14's aren't the only platform to launch a .308, last time I checked. I'm not trying to argue just to argue, I'm just interested in the discussion. And my main point is that shooting to kill at distances over 600, a larger caliber is probably a better choice. But yeah, for LE sniping, I would think a 5.56 would be fine. I don't know, what you think? |
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You mean are they even as powerful as a 22 long rifle bullet at distance? The 80 and 90 Berger's and JLK's at 700-1000 yards have enough power to take a man. Would be much like getting hit with 9mm +P handgun or .22 magnum rifle at 25-50 yards, except the the trajectory of the round would be causing it to go into the body at a downward angle with a longer wound channel. Placement isn't as guaranteed though. Really precise placement is hard for any shooter, cartridge, or rifle combo past 500-600 yards in field conditions. Little wind gusts can move the POI too much, changing mirage and light conditions are constant, your heart beats faster and dust is in the air. 400 yards and in you can have extreme precision, when I was by the Syrian border a few of my friends from Pendleton would take out knees first with guys trying to set up shit to attack our camp, just to keep up on their A-Game. I think .223 is fine for LE sniping, but there will come things much better. Except for cost, I don't see a reason to shoot such a small round at close distances. he |
If you are shooting people, it will do more than enough to kill them. It amazes me how often people sneeze at what a 22 caliber can do, how many people have died in war from much less? Think about it this way; fragmentation caused by explosive is the still number the one killer and maimer on the battle field. Most modern explosive devises are pre-fragmented/scored to produce frag much smaller than a 22 caliber projectile, with the frag normally being between 5-20 grains. No complains that the 5 grain fragments produced by the M67 is too small. |
So then you recommend using bird shot in your shotgun for self defense? I say that playing devil's advocate, because to me, what you're saying doesn't make complete sense. A 20 grain piece of metal from a bomb probably has a little different delivery method than a rifle. I don't know what the FPS of that little piece of metal is, but I'm thinking it's faster than a bullet. I don't know. I really have no experience so am above my paygrade. So, you may be completely correct. |
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No what I am saying is that a 5.56 hit can and will kill people well beyond 500 meters. I know of many cases when Marines have shot and killed people well beyond 500 meters with their M16s, M4s, SAM-Rs and Mk12s and SAWs. I also know of a cases when a small piece of frag has killed a friendly despite him wearing his PPE and it was just a unfortunate golden BB, so don’t discount a hit, any hit just because it is only 55, 62, or 77 grains. The number one problem with terminal effects at range is not the size of the projectile, it is hitting the target. I know in Garmsir, the Marines have killed men well beyond what the advertised max range of their weapons on numerous occasions; the problem was not the bullet not being lethal at those ranges, but instead hitting the target. That was one of the big advantages of the Mk11, they came with cans. There were several cases that at extreme range, the shooter and spotter adjusted in rounds after the 1st or 2nd missed. The lowered firing signature allowed follow on shots to get a hit without the target knowing he was the intended target. |
| I don't disagree. I have read those things too and believed them. All my info comes from reading. My only concern would be if you had to go through some type of barrier, glass, etc, it's probably not optimal at the longer ranges. But I'm sure in many cases it works just fine. It is a lot easier to shoot 5.56 also, imho. |
About what? The info I provided both from the federal website and the ballistics program used for the actual velocity of the ammo I was using out of my rifles completely supported what I said in my initial posts. The .223 77 grain dropped less at all ranges and the wind drift was almost the same. |
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+10 TO SPDSNYPR I "TRIED" to get through all this arguing WITH THE PROFESSIONAL REFERENCED ABOVE (SPDSNYPR) but couldn't take. I don't know if anyone actually pointed out the fact that there is as much 200 fps difference between the 5.56 & 308 loads that you are discussing. I just finished a SAM-R build and the load development that went with it. The 77 Gr SMK LOADING (MK-262 MOD 1) ACTUALLY, IN THE REAL WORLD WENT 2809 FPS THROUGH A CHRONOGRAPH @ 85* AT AN ALTITUDE OF 500 FEET ABOVE SEA LEVEL WITH AN EXTREME SPREAD OF 37.27 fps AND A STANDARD DEVIATION OF 14.17 fps, SHOOTING .5 MOA 5 SHOT GROUPS @ 200 YARDS. Not I think , I'm guessing or I'm a "Internet Ballistics Expert" 2809 fps, a TRUE 2809 fps. Per the Technical Manual (TM43-0001-27) a comparable load TO THE ABOVE in 308 goes 2550 fps (168 Gr OTM bullet) and the M-118 load goes 2640 fps. My REAL TIME EXPERIANCE WITH THIS LOAD IS IT'S CLOSER TO 2600 fps. As you will see the Ballistic Calculators say exactly what SPDSNYPR said in his initial post. Guys when experts take their time to give you their real world experience stop arguing with them, learn from them. S/F Tim |
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Specs:
Tactical Innovations BDX billet lower Vultor MUR-1A Upper w/ FA Magpul PRS stock Gen II Sabre Defense 24" 410 Stainless fluted bull barrel Daniel Defense LITE 14.0 rail system Young National Match BCG DPMS tactical grip Leupold VX-3 6.5-20x50 (30mm tube, LR target turrets) American Defense AD-Recon 30mm scope mount w/ QD Bobro bipod w/ QD PRI .960 low profile gas block 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR Sniper Systems (Page 3 of 3)
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