[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Iron sight/RMR cowitness question. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/2/2020 3:02:16 AM EDT
I’m not a machinist nor do I have the tools available to get the measurement. Figured if anyone knew off hand it would be you guys. I’d like the irons to take up less of the sight picture. Slide was milled by jagerwerks and they installed .390/.395 height irons. What’s the lowest I can go and still retain use of the backups.
|
| https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ This may help and may not. I have three Sig P320's with the Romeo1's on them. Where the red dot is it is different than if I am just looking through the sights yet both hit same spot. Red dot is above the front sight so not not true co-witness yet I can shoot with both. And that is the same across all three of them. I would say that the irons are 3rd co-witness. And yes they are all suppressor height sights for the irons. |
Thanks but I read through that. I was thinking about ordering sights in the .300 range that’s just an uneducated guess. Kinda too late to move the irons. 
Quoted:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ This may help and may not. I have three Sig P320's with the Romeo1's on them. Where the red dot is it is different than if I am just looking through the sights yet both hit same spot. Red dot is above the front sight so not not true co-witness yet I can shoot with both. And that is the same across all three of them. I would say that the irons are 3rd co-witness. And yes they are all suppressor height sights for the irons. |
|
Quoted:
On Ameriglo's website they state that the GL-429 rear sight height is .394". I have a .395" on there now. I feel like that would still take up too much of the window. Ameriglo measures their sights by overall height. Dawson (what you have) measures from top of sight to top of slide. Glock dovetails are cut at .079" +/- .001" or so. So in reality that .394" measurement is more like .314" or so. |
|
Quoted:
Negative. Ameriglo measures their sights by overall height. Dawson (what you have) measures from top of sight to top of slide. Glock dovetails are cut at .079" +/- .001" or so. So in reality that .394" measurement is more like .314" or so. |
|
Quoted:
@Keith1980 Dawson .305" rear, .300" front gets you just clearing the RMR body on ATEi and Jagerwerks mill jobs. Unfortunately I don't have a pic. “I would go with our SKU# 018-536, .245" tall x .125" notch rear notch, and 019-023, .215" tall x .105" wide front sight.” |
|
@Keith1980
Glock 17 Gen 4, Jagerwerks RMR cut. RM06 Type 2, Dawson 0.305" rear, 0.300" front post. The notch of the rear sight is below the top of the RMR body and the sides clear by just a hair. I don't consciously register my sights at all, unless I deliberately look for them. Attached File |
|
Quoted:
@Keith1980 Glock 17 Gen 4, Jagerwerks RMR cut. RM06 Type 2, Dawson 0.305" rear, 0.300" front post. The notch of the rear sight is below the top of the RMR body and the sides clear by just a hair. I don't consciously register my sights at all, unless I deliberately look for them. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/432480/IMG_1204_jpg-1222619.JPG |
|
For the record, with calipers I've measured the "LOW-cowitness" Suarez RMR sights as rear -- .315”, and front -- .305". I think they're likely made by Dawson, but I don't know for sure. I wanted sights to be VERY low, but these Suarez sights ARE too short for the MOS system. Even the Ameriglo 429s are too low for the MOS. Ask me how I know. :( I'm now buying my 3rd set of sights to get something low but workable. |
|
Quoted:
For the record, with calipers I've measured the "LOW-cowitness" Suarez RMR sights as rear -- .315”, and front -- .305". I think they're likely made by Dawson, but I don't know for sure. I wanted sights to be VERY low, but these Suarez sights ARE too short for the MOS system. Even the Ameriglo 429s are too low for the MOS. Ask me how I know. :( I'm now buying my 3rd set of sights to get something low but workable. They work great. |
|
Quoted:
@Keith1980 Glock 17 Gen 4, Jagerwerks RMR cut. RM06 Type 2, Dawson 0.305" rear, 0.300" front post. The notch of the rear sight is below the top of the RMR body and the sides clear by just a hair. I don't consciously register my sights at all, unless I deliberately look for them. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/432480/IMG_1204_jpg-1222619.JPG I’m getting ready to send my slide to Battlewerx, but the height after the cut should be pretty similar. Are these the right sights on Dawson’s website? Rear: https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-glock-mos-fixed-co-witness-rear-sights/ Attached File Front: https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-glock-standard-front-sights/ Attached File Those are the only ones I could find in that height (my search-foo likely sucks). I don’t know which width would be best for the front sight. The .105” width isn’t available in their drop-down menu. |
|
Quoted: Thank you very much for posting this info and the pic! I was having fits trying to figure it out too. I’m getting ready to send my slide to Battlewerx, but the height after the cut should be pretty similar. Are these the right sights on Dawson’s website? Rear: https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-glock-mos-fixed-co-witness-rear-sights/ https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/53338/75AAD968-1EAE-43BA-A9AB-B1E02D0E5974_jpeg-1223943.JPG Front: https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-glock-standard-front-sights/ https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/53338/D4AD90F3-5101-4AD7-8C9B-683C277690DA_jpeg-1223950.JPG Those are the only ones I could find in that height (my search-foo likely sucks). I don’t know which width would be best for the front sight. The .105” width isn’t available in their drop-down menu. Those are the ones. I think I did a 0.125 rear notch and a 0.115 front post width. I'm very happy with the setup, have 3 or 4 milled RMR guns with them now. |
|
Quoted: @Variable556 Those are the ones. I think I did a 0.125 rear notch and a 0.115 front post width. I'm very happy with the setup, have 3 or 4 milled RMR guns with them now.  Thanks for the help. I ordered one set for the G32 I’m getting ready to do, and if I like them then I’ll get another set for the G35 (Sig conversion) I’ll be doing next.
Attached File |
|
Quoted:
I’m going to mill my slide at some point, and I’m thinking about not doing irons at all. I figure even if the dot was dead, just the housing and muscle memory would be more than adequate at close range. Some of you should try shooting a gun you're familiar with with no sights on it at all. You can pretty easily hit a man sized target inside of 15 yards. People get super caught up in being accurate vs being combat accurate. Of course - I'd never want to not have sights at all. But you'd surprise yourself at what can be done with no sights at all. |
|
Quoted:
Don't know about all that, but yeah, most people would be pretty amazed at how accurate they are with no sights or red dot. Some of you should try shooting a gun you're familiar with with no sights on it at all. You can pretty easily hit a man sized target inside of 15 yards. People get super caught up in being accurate vs being combat accurate. Of course - I'd never want to not have sights at all. But you'd surprise yourself at what can be done with no sights at all. BTW, love the slide 
|
|
Quoted:
Don't know about all that, but yeah, most people would be pretty amazed at how accurate they are with no sights or red dot. Some of you should try shooting a gun you're familiar with with no sights on it at all. You can pretty easily hit a man sized target inside of 15 yards. People get super caught up in being accurate vs being combat accurate. Of course - I'd never want to not have sights at all. But you'd surprise yourself at what can be done with no sights at all. If you were to draw the pistol in self defense and find that the dot was gone, I tend to think you would probably not transition to the irons unless you had practiced a lot for that contingency. I'm not even sure you would notice the dot was gone in the first place, at least not within 15 yards. |
|
Quoted:
I'm just not sure about the efficacy of backup iron sights on pistol slides. If you were to draw the pistol in self defense and find that the dot was gone, I tend to think you would probably not transition to the irons unless you had practiced a lot for that contingency. I'm not even sure you would notice the dot was gone in the first place, at least not within 15 yards. |
|
Quoted: This falls in the realm of what you consider an adequate sight picture. If you're trying to hit a small object at 3 yards, you're going to use sights. If you're trying to hit minute of D zone at 7 yards, you can probably get away with no sights. I could be wrong, but it just seems like the idea of having backup sights on a pistol is rather hopeful thinking, at least within the realm of your average carrier who doesn't practice much. I think to have any hope of using them you would have to devise some kind drill where your RMR would randomly turn off and force you to transition. |
|
Quoted:
I’m going to mill my slide at some point, and I’m thinking about not doing irons at all. I figure even if the dot was dead, just the housing and muscle memory would be more than adequate at close range. |
|
Quoted: I'm was a border line B class open shooter I've done field course with no dot. If your indexing is good you you scores will not reflect that you had your dot in OFF mode. iirc 15 to 20 yards was about the max range with most of the COF 7 yards and under. |
|
Quoted:
What I'm saying is in a defensive scenario I'm skeptical about the idea of someone noticing the dot is gone and having the presence of mind to transition to the irons. I think it's much more likely that you wouldn't even notice the dot was missing in the first place. Even if you did notice it was gone, I don't think you would transition to the irons for a shot within typical self defense range. I could be wrong, but it just seems like the idea of having backup sights on a pistol is rather hopeful thinking, at least within the realm of your average carrier who doesn't practice much. I think to have any hope of using them you would have to devise some kind drill where your RMR would randomly turn off and force you to transition. Train with a friend. Have them adjust your dot and holster it for you, or put tape over the rear of the optic simulating total obstruction. Super easy to train, and there is no excuse not to do it. Under stress, I'll take any advantage I can get to make a hit. Which includes sights...of any kind. Dot is better than irons. Irons is better than nothing. Nothing sucks. Train for all three, or do yourself a favor and don't use a MRDS on a defensive weapon. |
|
Quoted: Lack of desire to properly train shouldn't be an excuse to omit a 40 dollar set of simple backup sights. Train with a friend. Have them adjust your dot and holster it for you, or put tape over the rear of the optic simulating total obstruction. Super easy to train, and there is no excuse not to do it. Under stress, I'll take any advantage I can get to make a hit. Which includes sights...of any kind. Dot is better than irons. Irons is better than nothing. Nothing sucks. Train for all three, or do yourself a favor and don't use a MRDS on a defensive weapon. 
It's not an excuse. More a question of optimization. Forgoing the irons makes positioning better, and it increases your field of view/unclutters your sight picture. Considering one of the primary benefits of having an RMR is long range accuracy, those aren't empty advantages. Aside from that, you're basically suggesting that anyone who isn't a tier one operator shouldn't have an RMR. I think you're underestimating the training it would take to use backup irons effectively. You're also underestimating the power of muscle memory at close range, and how effective using the housing for reference can be at self defense ranges. So in the end it might prove quicker and more effective anyways to just use the housing for reference rather than muddy the waters by training to transition to the sights at close range. I think you need to take a step back and rethink how aggressively you're poopooing this. I think you're on a self righteous crusade based on kneejerk reaction. If you stopped and gave this some serious consideration you probably wouldn't see it as being so black and white. |
|
A dot helps to train one to do a perfect draw, if not you do the dot dance, every new dot shooter will do this till they teach themselves to draw correctly. after a while you can turn the dot off and still get A hits at full speed with no issue.
this will also improve your draw times with irons as well. |
|
Quoted:
A dot helps to train one to do a perfect draw, if not you do the dot dance, every new dot shooter will do this till they teach themselves to draw correctly. after a while you can turn the dot off and still get A hits at full speed with no issue. this will also improve your draw times with irons as well. |
|
Quoted:
And you're accusing me of trolling?
It's not an excuse. More a question of optimization. Forgoing the irons makes positioning better, and it increases your field of view/unclutters your sight picture. Considering one of the primary benefits of having an RMR is long range accuracy, those aren't empty advantages. Aside from that, you're basically suggesting that anyone who isn't a tier one operator shouldn't have an RMR. I think you're underestimating the training it would take to use backup irons effectively. You're also underestimating the power of muscle memory at close range, and how effective using the housing for reference can be at self defense ranges So in the end it might prove quicker and more effective anyways to just use the housing for reference rather than muddy the waters by training to transition to the sights at close range. I think you need to take a step back and rethink how aggressively you're poopooing this. I think you're on a self righteous crusade based on kneejerk reaction. If you stopped and gave this some serious consideration you probably wouldn't see it as being so black and white. TO CLARIFY: If you're not going to train regularly, you will have issues with the dot. Its easier to get away with sloppy fundamentals on your presentation of iron sights. Not so much with a dot. To reiterate just so we are very clear here and can avoid confusion: I am suggesting that if you use a red dot on a pistol, you train as regularly as you can. Now, going back to highlighted stuff: As long as the sights are lower 1/4 to lower 1/3, you shouldn't have an issue with this. You're target focused with a dot and this allows you to basically look through the gun- you won't notice them if you have a logical setup. Agreed here, after shooting with Aaron Cowan for a few days we thoroughly tested this- but its a worst case scenario event, not a "fuck it lets ignore a really cheap and good sight option" and hope for the best scenario. Shooting with the housing as a reference point does work- however it takes more time and obviously makes you less accurate- its also MUCH more difficult when you add in movement...which will probably be a factor during a defensive shoot. Sorry, but I have to go with a no on this- there is a reason everyone who instructs for this says it is a best practice to have iron sights on a defensive weapon with a red dot- I have yet to see a single G.O. written on the LE side that allows a dot without back up irons present that can be co-witnessed. You can do whatever you want to do, but for the cost of iron sights, I think they're a must have on a defensive weapon. This is hardly a knee jerk, its based on a lot of conversation and training with one of the premier MRDS instructors out there right now, who literally wrote the book on this stuff. |
|
Quoted: I highlighted two portions in red to show what my comment referred to directly. Instead, you focused solely on one of the highlighted parts, ignored the rest, then took it out of the context, and went on a tirade. TO CLARIFY: If you're not going to train regularly, you will have issues with the dot. Its easier to get away with sloppy fundamentals on your presentation of iron sights. Not so much with a dot. To reiterate just so we are very clear here and can avoid confusion: I am suggesting that if you use a red dot on a pistol, you train as regularly as you can. Now, going back to highlighted stuff: As long as the sights are lower 1/4 to lower 1/3, you shouldn't have an issue with this. You're target focused with a dot and this allows you to basically look through the gun- you won't notice them if you have a logical setup. Agreed here, after shooting with Aaron Cowan for a few days we thoroughly tested this- but its a worst case scenario event, not a "fuck it lets ignore a really cheap and good sight option" and hope for the best scenario. Shooting with the housing as a reference point does work- however it takes more time and obviously makes you less accurate- its also MUCH more difficult when you add in movement...which will probably be a factor during a defensive shoot. Sorry, but I have to go with a no on this- there is a reason everyone who instructs for this says it is a best practice to have iron sights on a defensive weapon with a red dot- I have yet to see a single G.O. written on the LE side that allows a dot without back up irons present that can be co-witnessed. You can do whatever you want to do, but for the cost of iron sights, I think they're a must have on a defensive weapon. This is hardly a knee jerk, its based on a lot of conversation and training with one of the premier MRDS instructors out there right now, who literally wrote the book on this stuff. Again, you're underestimating the level of specific training it would take for someone under stress to recognize the dot's not there and transition to the irons. And in most self defense scenarios, you're talking about ranges of only a few yards. So even if you could effectively train people to use the irons, it might be faster and just as accurate under real world conditions to just say screw it and use the housing as an impromptu sight picture. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think there's an argument to be made that irons on pistols for concealed carry are at least somewhat superfluous. If someone is more than 20 feet away, I have no reason to shoot them. I actually can't think of one single good shoot that was more than a few yards. I'm not saying it can't happen, or hasn't happened, but generally speaking if you shoot someone who's not right up on you you're probably going to jail anyways. |
|
Quoted:
The iron sights block everything under the dot. That's not going to help acquisition at range. So if the sights aren't helping anything, there's not much point in having them. Again, you're underestimating the level of specific training it would take for someone under stress to recognize the dot's not there and transition to the irons. And in most self defense scenarios, you're talking about ranges of only a few yards. So even if you could effectively train people to use the irons, it might be faster and just as accurate under real world conditions to just say screw it and use the housing as an impromptu sight picture. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think there's an argument to be made that irons on pistols for concealed carry are at least somewhat superfluous. If someone is more than 20 feet away, I have no reason to shoot them. I actually can't think of one single good shoot that was more than a few yards. I'm not saying it can't happen, or hasn't happened, but generally speaking if you shoot someone who's not right up on you you're probably going to jail anyways. As to underestimating specific training....as I stated already, I'm not underestimating anything. I've had that training, specifically for the issue you've brought up, and done it. Its simple, and a major point taught by anyone in a red dot specific course. How much time do you have with a MRDS on a pistol? You'd really benefit from some professional training. |
|
Quoted:
I'm going to mill my slide at some point, and I'm thinking about not doing irons at all. I figure even if the dot was dead, just the housing and muscle memory would be more than adequate at close range. Attached File Attached File |
|
Quoted: ....We literally just saw a scenario in the news play out where someone had to make a shot on a moving target at more than 20 feet away. As to underestimating specific training....as I stated already, I'm not underestimating anything. I've had that training, specifically for the issue you've brought up, and done it. Its simple, and a major point taught by anyone in a red dot specific course. How much time do you have with a MRDS on a pistol? You'd really benefit from some professional training. 
I think this has officially devolved into hair splitting. And I still think you're either underestimating the level of training required to make that transition, or you're placing impossibly high standards on the average person who carries. And you're not taking into account that it might be faster and just as effective in most scenarios to simply use the housing for a sight picture, as opposed to transitioning to the irons. So in that line of thought, it might be more effective all around to spend that time training developing muscle memory for using the dot, rather than worrying about using backups, especially considering that it's highly unlikely you'll need the backups anyways. |
|
Quoted:
Okay, 25 feet then.
I think this has officially devolved into hair splitting. And I still think you're either underestimating the level of training required to make that transition, or you're placing impossibly high standards on the average person who carries. And you're not taking into account that it might be faster and just as effective in most scenarios to simply use the housing for a sight picture, as opposed to transitioning to the irons. So in that line of thought, it might be more effective all around to spend that time training developing muscle memory for using the dot, rather than worrying about using backups, especially considering that it's highly unlikely you'll need the backups anyways.
I’ll ask you directly again. How much time do you have on a pistol with a MRDS? |
|
Quoted: .....well ok. I’ll ask you directly again. How much time do you have on a pistol with a MRDS? 
I guess I shouldn't have expected anything less from a conversation that started out with you calling me a troll. |
|
Quoted:
And now we've moved from hair splitting to straight up pissing contest.
I guess I shouldn't have expected anything less from a conversation that started out with you calling me a troll. How much time do you have on a MRDS pistol? I’m asking not to split hairs. I’m asking because I feel training is a great benefit to those who want to use one, and something I advocate strongly. No hair splitting, just asking you again, directly. You’ve brought up some interesting points. I’m merely trying to understand how you got to those points. |
|
Quoted: @6GUNZ How much time do you have on a MRDS pistol? I’m asking not to split hairs. I’m asking because I feel training is a great benefit to those who want to use one, and something I advocate strongly. No hair splitting, just asking you again, directly. You’ve brought up some interesting points. I’m merely trying to understand how you got to those points. |
|
Quoted: “None”. Got it. You stepped on your peepee when you called me a troll, and now you're trying to save face by pumping yourself up as an expert. I'm not playing that game. |
|
Quoted:
What I'm saying is in a defensive scenario I'm skeptical about the idea of someone noticing the dot is gone and having the presence of mind to transition to the irons. I think it's much more likely that you wouldn't even notice the dot was missing in the first place. Even if you did notice it was gone, I don't think you would transition to the irons for a shot within typical self defense range. I could be wrong, but it just seems like the idea of having backup sights on a pistol is rather hopeful thinking, at least within the realm of your average carrier who doesn't practice much. I think to have any hope of using them you would have to devise some kind drill where your RMR would randomly turn off and force you to transition. Do you "need" backup sights? No, but you damn sure better have the ability to make precision hits without them. It's on you. Don't let other people tell you what to do, but don't be foolish enough to dismiss what they have to say without exploring the possibilities of a failure. |
|
Quoted: If you happen to find yourself in a position where a precision shot must be made and you do not have a sighting system, then may the odds be in your favor. Do you "need" backup sights? No, but you damn sure better have the ability to make precision hits without them. It's on you. Don't let other people tell you what to do, but don't be foolish enough to dismiss what they have to say without exploring the possibilities of a failure. I'm evaluating this from my perspective as a casual carrier of a compact pistol in the continental united states. Which of course applies to almost everyone else, as well. |
|
Quoted:
@Keith1980 Glock 17 Gen 4, Jagerwerks RMR cut. RM06 Type 2, Dawson 0.305" rear, 0.300" front post. The notch of the rear sight is below the top of the RMR body and the sides clear by just a hair. I don't consciously register my sights at all, unless I deliberately look for them. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/432480/IMG_1204_jpg-1222619.JPG |
|
Quoted:
Well I'm currently carrying a compact with big dot sights, so I can't make precise long range shots as it is. Nor do I need to. If it's that far out, it's not a big enough threat to me to shoot it, or it's such an overwhelming threat that I best just make a run for it. I'm evaluating this from my perspective as a casual carrier of a compact pistol in the continental united states. Which of course applies to almost everyone else, as well. If you can't think of a reason why you would ever need to make a precise shot, I hope you never need to make one and you better learn the offsets. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Iron sight/RMR cowitness question. (Page 1 of 2)
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter