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Posted: 1/13/2007 9:26:53 AM EDT
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If you are new to the NFA process and have general questions that do not pertain to the age issue, they likely will be answered here: www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/nfa_faq.txt Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer...I am NOT trying to undermine authority...I do NOT want to give anyone in the gov't a reason to rewrite the laws. For those of you in this age group, please realize that this age issue opens up opportunities, but those opportunities require responsibility and the willingness to abide by the law. Please do not submit any forms unless you have UNDERSTOOD those responsibilities (see titleii link above) and checked your state and local laws to make sure they don't place any added restrictions. This rings true for the whole NFA community: if anyone screws up, we all feel the heat. DO NOT abuse our hobby...the NFA is in a delicate balance, maintained by the impeccable track record of the NFA community. Overview: Federal law does not impose the 21 year-old age restriction on the possession of NFA firearms. The age restriction concerns transfers and applies only when a person buys NFA from a licensee. At 18 years old (provided state and local law do not impose added restrictions), federal law allows a person (using an individual, trust, or corp route) to 1) make NFA items via Form 1. 2) buy NFA items via Form4 FROM A PRIVATE UNLICENSED CITIZEN of his or her state. 3) Form a trust/corp with someone over 21 and have that person represent the trust/corp on the forms when buying NFA from dealers. The ONLY thing an 18 year-old person can NOT do is purchase NFA from dealers or other licensed individuals. My letter to the ATF: 11/16/06 To Whom It May Concern: I am the owner of an AR15 type lower receiver and wish to register it as a short barreled rifle using a Form 1. I am 18 years of age. It is my understanding that the Gun Control Act prohibits the transfer of short barreled rifles to those under 21, but I cannot find any such language in the NFA or GCA dealing with the manufacture/registration of a short barreled rifle using an already legally possessed rifle receiver. It seems that the GCA defines the transfer of any weapon (other than a rifle or shotgun) by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to someone under 21 as illegal, but is relatively silent as to the age restriction (if any) for registering a rifle as a short barreled rifle on a Form 1. My understanding is that such an act would not constitute a “transfer” and thus the age restriction for transfers would not apply. My question then is this: Can someone who is between 18 and 20 years of age, using an existing rifle and a Form 1, obtain approval from the BATFE to “make” a short barreled rifle as defined by the National Firearms Act §5845(a)(3)? I have searched through the National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act, and FAQ section on your website and have not been able to find any definitive answers to my question. Any advice you have to offer would be most appreciated. Sincerely, JPratt06 12345 Anywhere Street Anytown, State Zip Their response:  The law:(Gun control Act of 1968 § 178.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries) "(b) Sales or deliveries to underage persons. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age, or (2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery, or other disposition, unless the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession would not be in violation of such State law or such published ordinance." This is why 18-20 yr olds cannot buy handguns from dealers but can from other private citizens (provided state and local law do not impose further restrictions). 18-20 yr olds can't purchase NFA from dealers, but there is no federal law preventing a person over 18 but under 21 from making and registering an NFA firearm via Form1 or from buying an NFA firearm from a private citizen of his or her state via Form 4. As noted, state and local law may vary, so research before you submit any forms. This letter to accompany my Form 4 application (feel free to use this, making the necessary changes, if you are 18-20 and wish to submit a face-to-face Form4): Attachment ( 3 pages) 13 d. Under 21 years of age? I, JPratt06, was born on xx/xx/xxxx and am currently 19 years of age. I am the Grantor and Trustee of the JPratt06 Trust dated xx/xx/xxxx. On 11/16/2006, I wrote a letter (a copy of which is the second page of this attachment) to the BATFE inquiring as to the legality of an 18-20 year-old person manufacturing a short barreled rifle via a Form1. A copy of their response is page 3 of this attachment. Your agency has officially stated that such an act is not prohibited by law. The same logic applies to all Form1 and private-transfer Form4 applications, which are governed by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968. In short, the Gun Control Act provides the only source for age restrictions concerning Title 2 firearms. The restriction is applied thusly: § 178.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries. b) Sales or deliveries to underage persons. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age The 21 year-old age restriction on NFA firearms applies only when the transferor is a “licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector.” In my enclosed Form4 application, the transferor is a private citizen of my state, and thus the age restriction above does not apply to my situation. This is the same reason that an 18-20 year-old person may not buy a handgun from a dealer, but may do so from a private resident of his or her state. This logic applies to all Form1 and private Form4 applications. I should also note that I am legally able to purchase and possess firearms and according to my research there is nothing disqualifying me from taking possession of the firearm in question in either federal, state, or local law. Should you have any questions pertaining to my situation, you may consult the BATFE representative who answered my letter or contact me directly at xxx-xxx-xxxx . I thank you for your time and your patience and assure you that your faithful duties as an NFA examiner will not go unnoticed or unappreciated. Sincerely, JPratt06 FINAL UPDATE: Just got off the phone with NFA branch. My In-state private-transfer Form4 for a suppressor was APPROVED 2/16!!!!!! That was pretty quick considering I sent the forms on 1/29. |
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The ATF letters states, in part: "...you would not be prohibited from applying on Form 1 to make a short barreled rifle." Sure, you can apply, but does that mean they will actually approve it (which was not explicitly stated)? Or might NFA Branch simply hold on to your Form 1 until you are indeed 21, making it a moot point at that time anyway? |
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They must list reasons why a form is disapproved. Those reasons must either be legal or format-related (ie bad handwriting). I guess they could hold onto the application for a long time, then approve it, but I doubt that would happen. There are some good people working hard as examiners over there. Believe it or not, I could find NO age requirement for F1 or ftf F4. I assume the default would be 18. The letter clearly states that the only age restrictions for NFA firearms is the section of the GCA that I listed, which, as the letter states, applies only to transfers from dealers (see the bottom of the second paragraph of the atf response letter). |
I salute you. At the age of 18 you challenged BATFE and won. Consider law school someday, we need more pro-gun attorneys. IM/email me in several years if you want a letter of rec Well done, my friend, well done. ETA: You MUST send in the Form 1 VERY SOON, and then update this thread, so that we can see what the ATF actually does. |
Thanks for the encouragement! I am submitting a ftf Form4 for a silencer this coming week and won't have the funds to do a F1 sbr any time soon. I think the Form4 will be more interesting though  We'll see what they do with my F4, and I'll keep everyone updated.Oh, and btw, I am VERY seriously considering law school. |
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JPratt06 I know this is probably getting old but I just want to double check this. So Me being 18 and living in NE where sbr’s are legal could buy a lower and fill out the Form 1 and if it comes back with the ok I can engrave it and put on the 11.5 inch upper I’ve always wanted and its all good with the ATF Thank you for all of your help |
If you're gonna mail the lower to an engraver (I suggest Orion Arms), engrave before the F1 is approved. Once the F1 is approved, your lower is officially a short barreled rifle, and if you ship it and it gets lost on the way to the engraver or if the engraver does a crappy job, you're outta luck. But yes, the atf is fine with it. They actually specifically stated the F1 is fine for 18-20 year olds, so if that's what you want to do, you are good to go. The Form4 issue still has to be worked out (I'll let everyone know what they do with my F4---it should be approved according to my understanding). I noticed that was your post #10...Welcome!  Edited to fix an incorrect statement |
| Read the first line of the third paragraph. Is it me or does it come off as it being legal to build the gun, but illegal to have possession of the gun until your 21? I find this rather interesting because I am in a similar boat myself and was thinking of ways to beat the system. If this pans out for JPratt06 I think I'm going to jump on this boat myself. |
Sorry JPratt I seem to have a reading problem this evening. This is great news thought, I thinking I'm going to be sending in the sbr forms very soon! |
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Congratulations, JPratt06 -- first, for reading the relevant laws and having the ability to spot the opportunity, and second, for approaching BATFE with a logical, well-composed letter addressing the subject. A lot of (younger than me) gun owners are in your debt. If you can make it down to Spring Hill next month for the Hernando MG shoot, you're welcome to dump a few mags through my M16A1 and Uzi to celebrate your victory!
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Don't forget the military option! A few years of enlisted service will follow you for the rest of your life, and you'll get an all expense paid education when you get out . |
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Thanks Tony In reality, this was all a collaborative effort. Someone here helped me realize the scope of the situation (the fact it included F4's). I would have never thought of the whole F4 thing if it weren't for him (whoever you are---THANK YOU!). Before I came to this site I didn't even know these things were legal. You all have done an EXCELLENT job getting me educated. To everyone: THANK YOU Btw Tony, I've never fired an m16 or any mg for that matter, so I will definitely take you up on your offer 
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| btw, a little disclaimer: I am NOT trying to undermine the authority of the ATF, only trying to ensure that the law is interpreted correctly by everyone (it had us fooled too). I know I don't speak for everyone here, but my dealings with the ATF thus far have been pleasant. The people I have comunicated with from their offices have been nothing but helpful, even genuinely friendly. We owe them our gratitude for this one. |
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This is where we get into unknown territory. Let's say you and someone over 21 form an llc together. Let's say the over 21 person buys NFA stuff from a dealer. Technically, you would not be able to purchase the items from a dealer (but he would), although there is no law (to my knowledge) prohibiting you from possessing NFA stuff. Let's say you form an llc and either use F1's to build NFA stuff or F4's to buy stuff in-state, face-to-face (you are buying from an unlicensed person in your state via private sale). I see no legal basis for the atf to reject those forms (the letter specifically says F1's are ok), and yet again, I see no law prohibiting you from possessing the NFA item (regardless of type), provided you have the ATF-approved forms. Bottom line, I can find no federal or state law concerning the age restriction for possession of any NFA (suppressors, mg's, sbr's, sbs's, aow's, etc). Federal law says you must be 21 to get it from a dealer, and state laws usually prohibit NFA unless it's "federally approved" ie properly documented. The only age requirement seems to be the one concerning purchase of NFA from a dealer. |
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Since you are already in possession of the weapon and I doubt there will be huge numbers of 18 yo applying for with form 1s. I think it will go through. Not to mention you will 21 soon enough. I dont think they will have an issue with this unless someone there thinks your are smartass and wants to personally not allow it. I bet it will get approved. |
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I've decided to put the sbr F1 application on the backburner---instead I will be sending out a F4 for a suppressor, hopefully by the end of the week If they approve it, I won't have the funds for an sbr, but if the firm I sent my resume to decides to hire me as an assistant, maybe I'll have enough $$ by the end of the semester. We'll see.
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I would do a Form 1 ( because that's what the letter dealt with ) and do a registration to JPratt06 not JPratt06's Trust. ( a Trust does not have an age ) For purposes of 'testing the waters' an approved individual Form 1 for a person under 21 would clearly show that a person under 21 can do this. A Trust registration would show that a Trust can do a Form 1. Once that is approved ( or waiting to be approved ) write a second letter pertaining to Form 4's. One thing that would concern me about a private sale Form 4 is that the ATF may / could look on the transferor as a 'Dealer'. This would be particularly true if, say your dad bought a suppressor, with the intention of 'selling ' it to you. There may also ( in that senario ) be the supposition that a sort of ' straw ' purchase to avoid the age restriction existed. A Form 4 where someone had a suppressor for awhile ( years? ) and was simply looking to sell their property may be more clearly legal. |
I am going the trust route because every class3 dealer in my county I have spoken to says they deal only with corps and trusts as the sheriff will not sign. I'm taking them at their word, and even if they are wrong, I like the privacy and convenience that a trust offers me. The trustee must still answer all the y/n questions as he/she is the legal caretaker of the trust and its property. Case in point: a trust cannot have a felony conviction, be a fugitive of justice, or be under 21, but the trustee must still check the appropriate boxes next to those questions. The trustee answers those questions as they pertain to him/herself. This will still "test the waters" as you suggested. Yes, the letter pertained to F1's, but the logic may be extended to private F4's. We shall see soon what the atf thinks. In my case, the transferor cannot be considered a dealer. I honestly don't know where you are getting that from. The form asks both the transferee and transferor to list any firearms licenses they may have. Neither of us has a license, so this is a private sale. Since I did NOT ask someone to buy a suppressor for me (that would be a straw purchase and a big no-no), this is perfectly legitimate. The seller bought the suppressor, had it for awhile, and never got a gun for it. Now he's selling it to me. Perfectly legit. |
The above is incorrect. An NFA firearm can be sent to any gunsmith/FFL holder (gunsmiths are required to have a FFL) for repair work. More specific information can be found on the ATF website. You still want to engrave first, but mainly so you know it is completed correctly before you spend the time and money on a Form 1 application. Engrave it afterwards and your $35 engraving job could cost you a bunch of money and headaches if it comes back with an error in it. |
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Cheers to you! I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm in a similar, yet different, boat. I'm 19 (though I'll be 20 before any of the following goes into effect), and I'm looking to get an SBR. Here's the difference: I'm looking for an MP5 (semi-auto). There are two ways of SBRing an MP5, from what I hear: buy one with a 16 inch barrel that looks hideous  , find a competent gunsmith, pay a ton of money and hope that it comes back alright, or buy the pistol version and attach a buttstock, which is still readily accepted. This way, the barrel is in perfect shape with no modifications, and you save much money, time, and stress.Thus, my problem. I'm not 21--no pistols for me. Also, I can't own the lower to an MP5/clone (mp5gery? ), since, well, you know--they're not ARs...My brother, who I see every day, is 21. If I'm reading this correctly, would I be able to have him buy the pistol and register it as an SBR, and later transfer it to me, noting your interperetation of "transfer?" Or would this still be a problem? This shit is too confusing!  Again, sorry to hijack the thread, and I hope all goes well for you! I look forward to reading the updates! |
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First, please note that having someone buy a gun for you is usually viewed as a straw purchase (very bad). However, if you did happen to find an mp5-clone pistol, you would want to buy it as a pistol from a private citizen of your state (18 and up can buy handguns face-to-face in their own state), THEN register it yourself. This is because every time an sbr changes hands, a $200 tax is applied. If someone else were to register it, he would pay $200, then you would have to pay $200 to have it transferred to you. The short of it: buy an mp5clone pistol from someone face-to-face and then register it as an sbr yourself to avoid having to pay an extra $200 tax. ETA: or you could always buy the 16" rifle version, then have ADCO chop the barrel for you. I hear he does a great job. Also, don't forget to engrave the receiver before you do anything. |
If your brother bought it and you paid for it, it's a straw purchase and illegal. If he bought it as a gift, it's fine. AFAIK, your parent or legal guardian could buy it for you though, or you could buy it privately. Either way, I'd say your better bet would be to buy one of the models that has a fake silencer perm-attached, register it via F1, then have the fake can removed. |
This question came up months back if you can own nfa item at the age of 18 . I said the answer was yes and was shot down on the board .SHORT barreled shotgun and rifle are legal on form 1 .
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I would think that a transfer is a transfer is a transfer; not until 21. But so long as it's a F1 making......... I wish I would have known this ten years ago! GREAT WORK! Mike |
Transfers are not what carry the age restriction, it's transfers from dealers. The thing about law is that you must disregard what you think and actually get your hands dirty. Case in point: I always thought NFA stuff was "illegal for civvies," but then I found this board and did some digging. This age restriction issue was found as the result of my continued digging for the last 3 years. Read my first post again and look at the law. Where does it say you must be 21 to have a C3 weapon transferred to you, and, more importantly, under what circumstances? It seems Congress, in all their wisdom, were a little too specific with the age thing, and I am very grateful that they were
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5-day bump. I expect to have the F4 ready and sent to Atlanta by Thurs. Uncle Sam is about to get $200 richer ETA: I intend to give the NFA branch a call inquiring about the F4 issue. EVERYONE PLEASE refrain from submitting forms until I post an update. I want to get the Chief's personal views on the matter and assure him of our intentions to follow the law. |
| Very informative. But--- How do you go the Trust route? I've heard that if a CLEO won't sign, you can form a trust. How does this work and how do you form a trust? They have "trust kits" you can get from Office Depot, but do you have to do something different if you're going to put NFA items in it? |
Willmaker 2007 to form your trust. Very simple. What you heard about the CLEO not signing is false. The Trust is a legal entity. You don't need anybody's permission to form one. |
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