Posted: 1/7/2010 4:15:53 PM EDT
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Federal XM9HA 9MM
I ran across a discussion of this round on another forum. It appears to be a white box version of the 147gr HST. I went to the Federal web site and followed the link to ask the expert. I posed these two questions: What is XM9HA? What are the specs and what bullet is used in it? Federal responded by email the next day: Greetings, The XM9HA is a product overrun from a government contract it is loaded with our 147gr HST bullet with velocity at 1180FPS and 479 ft lbs of energy. Thank you If this is true it makes XM9HA the most powerful Federal HST 9mm round. When you take into account the exceptional expansion property of the HST bullet this is a very serious round. It produces energy rating that eclipses most 40sw and many 45 acp HP rounds. Does anyone know anything about this round? renotse 
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Quoted:
Where can I get some? Ask and ye shall receive! 
https://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_27&products_id=635&zenid=6775f713ae0065be0df26765f44ff608 (Yes, it's where my IP membership is from.) |
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I was skeptical after the original response so I went back to Federal.
Please don't take my word on this. Conduct your own inquiry. here is the link I used http://www.federalpremium.com/general/our_company/contact_us.aspx This is how it played out. From: joe renotse Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:49 PM To: Prodserv Subject: RE: Federal Premium - Ask the Expert Form Is this correct. If so it has much more velocity and energy than P9HST4 renotse From:"Prodserv" To:"joe renotse" Yes, this is correct. it is not the same load as the P9HST or it would be called that it, is the XM9HA loaded with the HST bullet. |
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We need someone to run this over a chronograph. That velocity is unbelievable. EDIT: This stuff has to be approaching some extreme pressures. I think it might be produced for Sub-Guns. EDIT2: Compilation of people's results with this ammo. Only those who have included lot numbers. I'll try and keep this updated. 1-AJSully421 page 5 110 rounds. 7 stoppages. 2 FTfire, 4 underpowered rounds, 1 case mouth folded over. Lot number 223446W001. Glock 17, Sig 226, M9 2-wbigcount Page 7 100 rounds. 0 stoppages. Lot number 23P444W001. Springfield XDM 9 and XDSC 9 3- brianm616 Page 7 50 rounds. 0 stoppages. Lot number 23P444W001. Glock 19 4- XMM Page 7 100 rounds. 0 stoppages. Lot number 23P444W001. Glock 17 5-slavkoph Page 2 (Keep in mind that the legitimatcy of this poster has been questioned, look at the link to Glock talk in this thread and form your own opinions) 300 rounds. 80 FTfire Lot number 223446W001. Gun ? 6-cmspeedy Page 7 200 rounds. 0 stoppages. Lot number 223446W001. Glock 19 Those who haven't included lot number- 1-renotse Page 4 50 rounds. 0 stoppages Lot number ?. Glock 19 2-GSAR426 Page 4 5 rounds. 0 stoppages Lot number ?. M&P 3-gettinold Page 4 25 rounds. 0 Stoppages Lot number ?. 2 Glock 17s |
| Interesting indeed. Gives me an idea.....I think I'll try to work up a comprable load this weekend for kicks and giggles. I'm guessing I'll start by tracking down some 3N38. Based on their load data I should be able to push 147gr somewhere between 1,171 - 1,207fps! I have some Hornady XTP's and Gold Dots, but I'm guessing I'll also pull a few HST bullets from some on had factory ammo since Federal doesn't sell those bullets as components. We'll see how it goes. |
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Quoted: Sounds like a great plan. Keep us updated if it works out. Interesting indeed. Gives me an idea.....I think I'll try to work up a comprable load this weekend for kicks and giggles. I'm guessing I'll start by tracking down some 3N38. Based on their load data I should be able to push 147gr somewhere between 1,171 - 1,207fps! I have some Hornady XTP's and Gold Dots, but I'm guessing I'll also pull a few HST bullets from some on had factory ammo since Federal doesn't sell those bullets as components. We'll see how it goes. |
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Now the trick will be tracking down some 3N38. There are several interesting threads on it over at BrianEnos.com. It apparantly does a great job at getting the velocity up on the heavy bullets without causing excess pressure.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74053&hl=3n38 |
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Quoted: While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. The benefit I see is using it in shorter barreled guns. As long as you and the gun can handle it. |
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Quoted:
While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With 1180 fps velocity and 479 ft lbs energy this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With its 1180 fps velocity this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse In before Zhukov. |
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Quoted: Quoted: While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With 1180 fps velocity and 479 ft lbs energy this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse After all that, I'm curious as to what wounding effect "hydrostatic shock" has on the body. And I'd really like to see some of this "fatal brain damage from a chest wound" stuff. I bet it's a lot like those .308 rifles that knock you down when they hit you. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=310_1212367354 |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With 1180 fps velocity and 479 ft lbs energy this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse Some reading you might like: Handgun wounding Particularly paragraph 2, page 7.
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Quoted:
Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. renotse I wouldn't cite ayoob... Reply to Massad Ayoob's Kooky Screed - by Shawn Dodson http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm As you said, time and testing will tell... |
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Quoted: Maybe the temp cavity will be slightly bigger so that if the bullet passes close to something such as the liver the potential to "shock" the liver will be greater. But most likely not. It's still not fast enough to even compare to any rifle damage though. I am happy to see that the Momentum generated is a few figures higher than 124+p yet still less than 40s&w. Quoted: Quoted: While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. ...and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse After all that, I'm curious as to what wounding effect "hydrostatic shock" has on the body. And I'd really like to see some of this "fatal brain damage from a chest wound" stuff. I bet it's a lot like those .308 rifles that knock you down when they hit you. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=310_1212367354 I'm reserving judgment for some Gel tests though. As long as there is sufficient expansion (without tearing the round apart), penetration, and functionality- IMO this round is GTG. I've ordered some and I will do some gel tests one I get the ammo and time. |
| back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. |
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Quoted:
back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. What kind of pistol? |
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http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx274/slavkoph/DSC02908.jpghttp://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx274/slavkoph/DSC02907.jpg
here is the results of my tests.jacket separations.aside from 80 failure to fire.it was shot on wet newspapers soaked for 12+ hours and water jugs. |
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Quoted:
back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. Maybe you were just unlucky (I'm hoping so, cause I ordered some). Anyone with similar results? Can't really find ANY HST anywhere besides this stuff, so I went for it. |
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Quoted:
back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. This sounds fishy. I have been buying Federal XM branded surplus and over run ammo for 10 years (XM193 and others) and never had issues like you describe. I find it hard to believe that Federal would sell ammo with such problems. Too much liability. If I were you I would check your pistols. I guess I'll find out. I bought 500 rounds |
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Those sure do look like HST rounds. Check out the serrations all the way down the sides of the bullet itself. As far as I have ever seen, I have never seen a non HST Federal round with those long serrations.
I ordered 500 rounds and will let you all know what they look like. I'll also shoot one into water jugs and show the expansion. |
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i tried it in xd 9mm service and glock 19.i think this is old stock ammo because i got so many failures to fire.not good. If I experience the same thing as you did I will issue you an apology but right now I seriously doubt that anything Federal makes would have that rate of failure. If I had to guess, I'd say it was your specific gun that has the problem. I did order 500 rounds of the stuff so, again, if it fails for me I will apologize to you. |
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Quoted: While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. Dude ... it will kill you deader! |
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Quoted:
While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. Dude ... it will kill you deader! LOL, no, it's just that it's currently available and it's not insanely priced. |
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Quoted:
back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. I emailed SurplusAmmo.com to tell them about this post and ask if they had reports of failure to fire from this ammo. This is excerpt from the reply I recieved today. We've not had any actual reports of failures of this type (or
even close) from any Federal, American Eagle or simply, any of the various lines of ammo we sell/sold. If a customer had a problem like this w/ some of our ammo, I would also expect to get at least a phone call or email about this, either a "heads-up" or request for a refund/replacement or something. I've heard nothing (and it would be me that would be contacted either directly or indirectly). Based on this reply my confidence in this ammo is high. |
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