AR Sponsor
Posted: 9/17/2003 4:53:41 PM EDT
|
Please add your personal experience with WINCHESTER Q3131A / IMI M193 ammunition to this thread. When you do, please give information about: 1) Firearm used in 2) Approximate number of rounds fired. For more information about this ammunition, check out the Winchester website. From RussB's post out of a 16" barrel: Velocity: 3079fps, StdDev=13fps Winchester Q3131A is made in Israel by IMI for Winchester and is the same as IMI (TZ headstamp) M193. Let's limit this to .223/5.56 ammunition, since this is an AR-15 forum. No offense to the guys with AR's in other calibers, but we all know that .223 chamberings are the most sensitive. I am trying to solicit only information about your PERSONAL experience with this ammunition. If you haven't used it, then please don't clutter up the thread. Information about proper functioning (or lack thereof) is obviously the most important, but factors such as the accuracy or other peculiarities you've noticed are informative also. If you have had problems with this ammo which were severe enough to cause you to stop using this ammo, then please describe them. And one more minor request: keep your reviews objective. This post is part of a larger information-gathering effort I'm trying to start about ALL ammunition popular in AR's: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729. I'm going to have a seperate poll later for other Winnie ammunition. Q3131A occupies a special place in this forum and ought to have its own space. |
|
1. Used in several firearms including Colt 16" lightweight, Colt 20" HBAR and a Bushmaster 16" HBAR. 2. Approximate number of rounds fired = 2500 When it comes to general purpose ammo, this has been my primary choice for the past couple of years. I have had no functioning problems with this ammo. In fact, the only thing I can ever recall is having to cull a few rounds because of some pretty severe dents. But considering I have used 2500 rounds of the stuff at least, that is an acceptable ratio IMHO and not a problem. Otherwise I really love this ammo. Unfortunately, I have heard that IMI may no longer have the contract to produce M193 spec ammo for Winchester. So the days of Q3131A may soon be over if this is true. -Charging Handle |
|
(Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass) ________________________________________________ Correction. Q3131 was the original. Q3131A is is the copy. I have used 94 and still have 2 cases of Q3131. Made in U.S.A. at Lake City plant. Very hot and accurate. The last lots of Q3131 were questionable, that's all. So don't label it all as bad. That would be giving wrong info! Edit: To stay on topic. Have fired 2 cases of Q3131A with NO problems. I have 3 cases of this for SHTF ammo, among others. I only buy this now for 55gr ammo. |
|
I sure hope you guys are applying the same standard of judgement to this round as you are to, say, Wolf. Surely there'll be some of you which have had minor problems with it. C'mon now - don't be shy. [;)] Just being a smartass. It's been interesting following the way these polls are turning out... |
|
I've shot several cases of Q3131A over the years, and though it tests at the lower end of the M193-spec for velocity, it's always been totally reliable in my rifles (all have Bushmaster 5.56-chambered, chrome-lined barrels). Keep in mind that any M193-spec ammo can be expected to have pressure-related problems when fired in .223-chambered rifles. The most common symptoms of this are difficult/failed extraction and popping primers. -Troy |
|
Quoted: (Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass) Q3131 hasn't been available since 1999, which was the last year Winchester/Olin ran the Lake City plant. It appears that they tried to use up the last of the materials in the last few lots of Q3131, and ended up loading a bunch of ammo with bad powder that caused pressure problems and didn't have quite the correct burn rate. Anyway, it was only some of these '99 lots that had problems. Any '98 and older Q3131 is excellent, being identical in every way except headstamp markings to the Lake City M193 that was manufactured on the same equipment. Again, given that it was last made in '99, it's a moot point for most folks. -Troy |
|
rifle: Bushmaster M4A3 16" (blunt) "patrolman's carbine" bbl. Q3131A: 1750 rnds through, no problems whatsoever. notes-- -- reliability, accuracy, and power surely good enough for any SHTF situations. -- more muzzle flash than commercial 223. -- shoots fairly clean. -- nice looking cases. -- can't get enough of it. -- would buy Q3131A in mass quantities if i found it at the right price (say $150 /1K to my door). ar-jedi |
|
I've fired about 3,000 rounds through my ArmaLite M15A2 with a 20-inch barrel and experienced no problems at all. Accuracy is good, and the flash is about three inches in diameter out of the ArmaLite brake. I found one cartridge that was dented and had to be discarded. Once when I ran out of Q3131A I tried some Q3131 and had several primers pop out. That was the end of that experiment. I paid a flat $150 for my last case about three weeks ago at a local gun show. It was about 4:00 PM on Sunday, and the dealer probably figured it was easier to sell it than pack it up and cart it off. Or maybe he'd had a slow day and need some quick cash. I don't know and don't really care either. Usually I pay around $170 per case at gun shows. |
|
Q3131A is all I buy. I use it in 5 different ARs, a old 11.5 inch Colt Commando, 2 M-4s 1 Bushy 1 Colt (16"), 20 inch Bushy flattop, 20 inch Colt H Bar. Have never had a FTF/FTE, case seperation, or any other problem. Accuracy has always been good, considering were talking factory ammo. From the bench, out of 20" Flat top (scoped), average MOA is about 1.5. Out of 11.5 inch barrel it runs about 2.5 to 3. Commando about 5000 rnds. M-4s about 2000 each. H Bar about 3500. Flat Top about 450. Personal notes: Some batches are, others are not sealed against moisture. Minimal fouling from unburned powder residue. |
|
It is my personal favorite M193 load. I have fired several thousand rounds with no problems attributable to the ammo, out of a variety of guns. Right now I am shooting XM193 because the Q3131A is a bit harder to find and I don't want to dig into my reserve stock of Q3131A. |
|
1. Half a case+ 2. Colt M16A1. 20 inch barrel. Very nice and tight groups when I shot on Full Auto. Semi Groups, well, ask me again in a few months. If what I did is any indication, I’ll be shooting sub-minute groups when I get a scope for the upper. It also cleaned up very quickly. I spent less time than usual on the Lower. MUCH less time. I was surprised just how fast it cleaned up. I was very impressed by the ammo. So far S&B has been the most accurate ammo I’ve ever shot. I have a Remington BDL that has shot half minute groups with PMC ammo. I’m wondering just how well it will shoot with my rifle that I use for Benchmark accuracy. |
|
Limited experience, but so far with 200 rounds fired in 24" stainless flat top no problems what so ever. 5-20 shot group at 100 yds about 1 1/4" consistant. In my M4gry no problems w/200 rds. Groups 20 shot about 4" with red dot sight at 100 yds benched. Not gun or ammo fault, I can barely see the target with my aging eyes. Group 20 shot about 5" at 50yds standing, gun wobbleing {sp} like crazy. It is obvious I am not a hard holder. Very satisfied with Q3131a. After unfavorable experience with Wolf ammo in both guns on the 3rd box fired both times. Wolf cartridge getting 3/4 way into chamber and sticking/glueing itself to chamber wall in both firearms. In both instances charging handle would not pull cartridge out of chamber and had to pry bolt back with (shudder) screwdriver. BUT my buddy has not had any problems with Wolf in his carbine. Go figure. He got an early x-mas present, case of ammo. |
|
3000 rounds One Failure to feed - it may have been the new magazine I was breaking in. Colt AR-15 SP1 20" barrel When you can buy it for $2.88 per box then shoot it until the next sale. Otherwise shoot XM193 I get for $170.00 per thousand. I really don't like paying $200.00+ per thousand for ammo. |
|
I have shot 400 rnds so far with no failures as of yet. I have used this ammo in an Armalite M15 A4 carbine, and an Armalite M15 A2 20" Accuracy is good in both rifles 1 1/2 to two inches with irons at one hundred yards off of a rest. Clean and consistant. Better than the generic walmart Winchester in the white box. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: (Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass) Q3131 hasn't been available since 1999, which was the last year Winchester/Olin ran the Lake City plant. It appears that they tried to use up the last of the materials in the last few lots of Q3131, and ended up loading a bunch of ammo with bad powder that caused pressure problems and didn't have quite the correct burn rate. Anyway, it was only some of these '99 lots that had problems. Any '98 and older Q3131 is excellent, being identical in every way except headstamp markings to the Lake City M193 that was manufactured on the same equipment. Again, given that it was last made in '99, it's a moot point for most folks. -Troy Just want to add that I did have problems with a case of q3131 with 98 headstamps. Ammo would consistently cause my carbine to short stroke, yet all other types of ammo functioned fine, even some low velocity pmc. A friend had the same problems in his 20" rifle. There were also quite a few casings with split necks and had at least one round where the bullet was pushed back into the case when it was chambered. |
|
I fired in excess of 12,000 rounds of all makes of WCC Q3131a in less than 4 weeks earlier this year in one of two weapons: Bushmaster 16" post ban and m4 select fire 14.5". 4 failures, first 3 in the m4: Failure to extract. (Attributed to dirty weapon. Hadn't done a lick of cleaning in 7500 rounds). Failure to fire. (Attributed to round). Failure to fire. (Broken firing pin). Failure to feed. (Hung up on ramp. Attributed to magazine. Rounds replaced in new mag, fed and fired without flaw). |
|
The Q3131A has a well-deserved rep as some of the best ammo out there. I would rank it as #1 or #1A on my list for a self-defense load. Good speed and good frag = good effect on the target. So far, no problems, other than a hot flash from the short barrels of my Bushy M4 and 16-inch carbines. My 20-inch Colt pre-ban HBAR doesn't seem to show the same amount of fire from the barrel. Phoenix27 |
|
Colt MT6731 16" barrel 1/9 twist. Fired 160 rounds without a problem. All rounds feed well and ejected into the same general area. While sighting the carbine at 50yrds with iron sights, all rounds struck in a nice consistent group with little effort. I plan on using this ammo again without reservations. Boxes say Lot # UF61 |
|
Fed XM193, Win Q3131A, and Win Q3131 all did about 3020fps in the M4 and 3255 in the 20". They appear to be interchanable. Fed XM193 and Win Q3131A were equally accurate. 2.25 MOA in a good barrel. Commercial match grade ammo can do under 1 MOA in same barrel and handloads better still. Fed XM193 has TONS of flash and Win Q3131 had significant flash, and therefore I prefer the Winchester Q3131A. Fed XM193 (10 shots each) M4 14.5", ES=68, Ave=3024, SD=19 20" ES=105, Ave=3251, SD=31 Accuracy was 2.25 inch 5 shot group. Win Q3131A (5 shots each) Accuracy was 2.25 inch 5 shot group. M4 ES=59, Ave=3011, SD=17 20" ES=91, Ave=3253, SD=32 Win Q3131 (had failures to function in both rifles) M4 ES=61, Ave=3032, SD=22 (5 shots) 20" 3265, only 1 shot fired. http://www.photomosaic.com/gns/flash.jpg |
|
I've tried several different types of M193-type Ball ammo through my AR. With Q3131A, I've had *ZERO* FTF's. *ZERO* FTE's. *ZERO* Problems. I've found it to be accurate, clean, and affordable. It's available at several locations nearby. Q3131A is my ammo of choice...for now, anyway. |
|
2 rifles: 1. 20" A2 J&T kit unchromed: approx. 1500 rounds with no failures directly related to ammo. three or four stovepipes and one doublefeed traced to a weak extractor/ejector. 2. 20" Pre-A1 Colt Air Force upper Chrome Chamber, unchromed barrel: 500 rounds, zero malfunctions. Am running Chrome bolt and Chrome M16-spec Carrier, so added weight may add reliability. Q3131A is my favorite ammo. |
|
How can I find out the manufactor dates if I know the lot #?? Any de-code formula or suggestions? I have a case of Win Q3131 that I recently bought for SHTF and would want to know if this is the Hold'um or if I should fold'um andburn these at the range A.S.A.P.! Thanks for your insight and assistance! "Bigger_Hammer" |
AR Sponsor