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Posted: 9/9/2009 5:09:08 PM EDT
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The RRA .458 SOCOM I put a deposit on is in. I need to make my way over to the dealer, pay the balance and pick up the rifle. I've ordered ammo from SBR that should ship tomorrow. I've even acquired some Starline brass as a back up in case I ever decide to load my own.
Now that this long process is finally coming together, can someone please remind me why I'm paying $1k+ for the rifle and $3 per round vs. just putting slugs in my 12 gauge? |
| I asked myself the same thing when I was trying to decide if I should bite the bullet and pay the $ for a 458. Never really could come up with a "good" reason...other than it would be a fun new toy. Well, now that I have one....I have to say I've never had as much fun with a shotgun as I have had with my 458!!!!! The 458 is just pure fun, plain and simple. That being said...reloading is the way to really enjoy a 458, at least until ammo becomes more available/competitively priced. |
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The RRA .458 SOCOM I put a deposit on is in. I need to make my way over to the dealer, pay the balance and pick up the rifle. I've ordered ammo from SBR that should ship tomorrow. I've even acquired some Starline brass as a back up in case I ever decide to load my own. Now that this long process is finally coming together, can someone please remind me why I'm paying $1k+ for the rifle and $3 per round vs. just putting slugs in my 12 gauge? You're paying $3 per round?!?! Get a reloading setup it will more than pay for itself in the long run. Jim |
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So what is the difference between the 458 and the 50 Beowulf any faster? 50 b beowulf info 458 nada the site is down 
marts faq http://www.teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm |
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The RRA .458 SOCOM I put a deposit on is in. I need to make my way over to the dealer, pay the balance and pick up the rifle. I've ordered ammo from SBR that should ship tomorrow. I've even acquired some Starline brass as a back up in case I ever decide to load my own. Now that this long process is finally coming together, can someone please remind me why I'm paying $1k+ for the rifle and $3 per round vs. just putting slugs in my 12 gauge? everybody and there grandma has a shotgun 
only mine has a 458 SOCom(Ikid) 
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I have never shot the .458 or the .50 others posted. I have shot slugs. My first question to help answer yours is what would you be using this "shot" for and at what range. Once you answer that think about this. To me...12ga slug is good to 50yards. How fast can you do aimed repeat shots with slugs? From what I have read is the .458 can do well aimed repeat shots well over 50yds. So which one fits your needs? If its just for fun...then ask your checkbook not people here.
DISCLAIMER––I shoot rifled slugs with open sights from pump shotgun. You very well maybe able to shoot past 50yds with diff gun/ammo/sights. The 50yds is my limit. |
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I have never shot the .458 or the .50 others posted. I have shot slugs. My first question to help answer yours is what would you be using this "shot" for and at what range. Once you answer that think about this. To me...12ga slug is good to 50yards. How fast can you do aimed repeat shots with slugs? From what I have read is the .458 can do well aimed repeat shots well over 50yds. So which one fits your needs? If its just for fun...then ask your checkbook not people here. DISCLAIMER––I shoot rifled slugs with open sights from pump shotgun. You very well maybe able to shoot past 50yds with diff gun/ammo/sights. The 50yds is my limit. he bought it already
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you get a much great bullet selection with the .458 vs a shotgun. Anywhere from 250 to 600 g subsonic loads. I would trust my .458 out to 200 m, most of the shotguns i have fired slugs from are only really accurate to 50-75m max in my hands. In addition, you not only get greater round capacity, but the ability to reload with mags vs the shotgun tube. Depending on the load, recoil is pretty comparable IMO. The .458 is easily my favorite AR, probably my favorite rifle overall. Trust me you will be grinning ear to ear after your first range session. |
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you get a much great bullet selection with the .458 vs a shotgun. Anywhere from 250 to 600 g subsonic loads. I would trust my .458 out to 200 m, most of the shotguns i have fired slugs from are only really accurate to 50-75m max in my hands. In addition, you not only get greater round capacity, but the ability to reload with mags vs the shotgun tube. Depending on the load, recoil is pretty comparable IMO. The .458 is easily my favorite AR, probably my favorite rifle overall. Trust me you will be grinning ear to ear after your first range session. I am having flashbacks to the recent 50 beowulf vs shotgun thread. Next month we will have a 450 bushmaster vs shotgun thread.................... |
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Quoted: Quoted: you get a much great bullet selection with the .458 vs a shotgun. Anywhere from 250 to 600 g subsonic loads. I would trust my .458 out to 200 m, most of the shotguns i have fired slugs from are only really accurate to 50-75m max in my hands. In addition, you not only get greater round capacity, but the ability to reload with mags vs the shotgun tube. Depending on the load, recoil is pretty comparable IMO. The .458 is easily my favorite AR, probably my favorite rifle overall. Trust me you will be grinning ear to ear after your first range session. I am having flashbacks to the recent 50 beowulf vs shotgun thread. Next month we will have a 450 bushmaster vs shotgun thread.................... oh man, now that one will be off the chain. Can't wait to see how it turns out... |
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The RRA .458 SOCOM I put a deposit on is in. I need to make my way over to the dealer, pay the balance and pick up the rifle. I've ordered ammo from SBR that should ship tomorrow. I've even acquired some Starline brass as a back up in case I ever decide to load my own. Now that this long process is finally coming together, can someone please remind me why I'm paying $1k+ for the rifle and $3 per round vs. just putting slugs in my 12 gauge? 458 SOCOM is more accurate (mine is anyway) that any 12 ga slug gun. |
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I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but does anyone want to compare ballistics and energy between say a 7/8 oz slug, 1 1/4 oz slug, and a 300gr JHP or 405gr JSP from a .458 Socom? With comparable barrel lengths too if possible. Shortest non NFA shotgun barrel is 18" Shortest non NFA AR barrel is 16" for non-pistol lowers ... so you have a more versatile platform and you could go with an even shorter barrel From Cartridges of the World, 11th Edn, pg 508 12 ga, 3" shell, 547 gr slug, 1600 fps 12 ga, 3" shell, 600 gr slug, 1502 fps 12 ga, 2-3/4 shell, 427.5 gr slug, 1680 fps max No barrel length stated - the 600 gr slug load is about 3000 fpe From BigBore's post above - 458 SOCOM, 500 gr, 1350 fps, 16" barrel... the 300 gr JHP has been clocked by several folks at 2000 fps - 2665 fpe the 500 gr load above - 2023 fpe |
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I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but does anyone want to compare ballistics and energy between say a 7/8 oz slug, 1 1/4 oz slug, and a 300gr JHP or 405gr JSP from a .458 Socom? With comparable barrel lengths too if possible. Shortest non NFA shotgun barrel is 18" Shortest non NFA AR barrel is 16" for non-pistol lowers ... so you have a more versatile platform and you could go with an even shorter barrel From Cartridges of the World, 11th Edn, pg 508 12 ga, 3" shell, 547 gr slug, 1600 fps 12 ga, 3" shell, 600 gr slug, 1502 fps 12 ga, 2-3/4 shell, 427.5 gr slug, 1680 fps max No barrel length stated - the 600 gr slug load is about 3000 fpe From BigBore's post above - 458 SOCOM, 500 gr, 1350 fps, 16" barrel... the 300 gr JHP has been clocked by several folks at 2000 fps - 2665 fpe the 500 gr load above - 2023 fpe You really need to update your slug gun info . I hunt in Ohio with slug guns and its a diff. world now than your info states . Sure you can still use the smooth bore rifled slugs , but you will find that most have gone to rifled bbl's & sabot slugs . I use Hornady SST's and they be going 2000fps with 2 3/4 shells . Most have no problem reaching out to 150-200 yard's nowadays . As I have said before ,I routinely shoot deer past 100 yards. I will sighting my 870 mag. in next week & I will post grouping , you will be educated.( my newly worked "Bill Springfield trigger job ,can't wait to try her out ) There is no real comparison between rifles and shotguns , if you have to use a slug gun (like in Ohio ) I can guarantee it works . If you are buying a fun gun ,like we all do , and don't have to use a slug gun , go with the large cap. AR rifle type platform . |
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From Cartridges of the World, 11th Edn, pg 508 You really need to update your slug gun info . Not my data, just used what was handiest. No reference, quote or citation is listed with the table on COTW, so no idea who, what, when, where. There are some other tables with it dated 1979, so likely the info is dated, but again, that is all I had handy and I cited my source... Brenneke lists the Gold Magnum 3" at 1502 fps at the muzzle on their website so the data may not be all that off, as the table specified Brenneke slugs. I don't shop for 12 ga slugs so I cannot attest as to other commercial offerings that may be out there. Brenneke website states that only TWO of their slugs is good for 100+ yards... In 1992, we added minor improvements which resulted in even higher accuracy: five-shot groups of under 2" at 50 yards are possible. Depending upon the case length (2¾" or 3") you can effectively use our slugs up to 100 yard ranges. Groups of under 4" at 100 yards are no problem from a rifled barrel with our normal slugs. However, we have two specialists, slugs designed for use in rifled barrels only: Gold Magnum, a 13/8 oz slug and our SuperSabot, a 11/8 oz expanding (up to 1") brass slug. These two products provide maximum accuracy (under 2" groups at 100 yards) from a rifled barrel, at ranges of over 100 yards. They also have an interesting article on their website (under What others are saying) titled Shooting the shotgun slug: How far is too far? |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also .
12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also . 12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 Shotgun slugs have come a long way to be sure, but you still run into the issue of accuracy of the sabot+round vs. standard rifle round. I'm willing to bet you'll never have the accuracy of the rifle in a shotgun. I know I never have had great accuracy with a shotgun... |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also . 12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 Shotgun slugs have come a long way to be sure, but you still run into the issue of accuracy of the sabot+round vs. standard rifle round. I'm willing to bet you'll never have the accuracy of the rifle in a shotgun. I know I never have had great accuracy with a shotgun... A shooter shooting at "aplacetoshoot" came very close to hitting a steel ram with Horndady SST 300 gr at 400 yds. Very impressive. Leupold Grandslam |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also . 12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 Shotgun slugs have come a long way to be sure, but you still run into the issue of accuracy of the sabot+round vs. standard rifle round. I'm willing to bet you'll never have the accuracy of the rifle in a shotgun. I know I never have had great accuracy with a shotgun... A shooter shooting at "aplacetoshoot" came very close to hitting a steel ram with Horndady SST 300 gr at 400 yds. Very impressive. Leupold Grandslam I can hit rams at 500m with iron sights (.45-70). It's damn near more fun that I know what to do with 
Seriously, sabots are accurate, but not anywhere near rifle standards...especially at medium and longer distances. |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also . 12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 Shotgun slugs have come a long way to be sure, but you still run into the issue of accuracy of the sabot+round vs. standard rifle round. I'm willing to bet you'll never have the accuracy of the rifle in a shotgun. I know I never have had great accuracy with a shotgun... A shooter shooting at "aplacetoshoot" came very close to hitting a steel ram with Horndady SST 300 gr at 400 yds. Very impressive. Leupold Grandslam I can hit rams at 500m with iron sights (.45-70). It's damn near more fun that I know what to do with
Seriously, sabots are accurate, but not anywhere near rifle standards...especially at medium and longer distances. My point is, thats damn accurate for a shotgun. Damn good for a shotgun |
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This is the balistics on the Honady SST ,I'm using.You can see a lot has changed . Do not want to turn this into a shotgun thread.Just check out Honady'&Winchester's sights , Winchester has some I may be trying also . 12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd 2000/2644 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd 150 yd 200 yd -1.5 2.4 2.7 0 -6.7 The key here is APPLES TO APPLES - you are citing a 300 gr slug at 2000 fps, which is the exact same as the 300 gr JHP in the SOCOM I was citing a 600 gr slug at 1500 fps. So to state that the slug has come a long way by using a lighter slug and claiming it is superior to the velocity of the SOCOM is an invalid statement... had you stated that the 600 gr slug was going 2000 fps, that would indeed have been a substantial improvement... as such, it appears the data in the table I cited IS indeed valid .... |
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You really need to update your slug gun info . I hunt in Ohio with slug guns and its a diff. world now than your info states . Sure you can still use the smooth bore rifled slugs , but you will find that most have gone to rifled bbl's & sabot slugs . I use Hornady SST's and they be going 2000fps with 2 3/4 shells
I was not saying you info was incorrect (on the type of slug ),I was stating that those type of slugs are not being used all that much any more . Most have went to the modern type of slug ammo and yes they are still called slugs.If you are comparing a cartridge to cartridge ,rifle to shotgun,why would you use obsolete ammo types. I know some people still use the old type rifled slug ,but you will find most do not . It would be like comparing a patch & ball muzzle loader to a modern muzzle loader rifle . |
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You really need to update your slug gun info . I hunt in Ohio with slug guns and its a diff. world now than your info states . Sure you can still use the smooth bore rifled slugs , but you will find that most have gone to rifled bbl's & sabot slugs . I use Hornady SST's and they be going 2000fps with 2 3/4 shells
I was not saying you info was incorrect (on the type of slug ),I was stating that those type of slugs are not being used all that much any more . Most have went to the modern type of slug ammo and yes they are still called slugs.If you are comparing a cartridge to cartridge ,rifle to shotgun,why would you use obsolete ammo types. I know some people still use the old type rifled slug ,but you will find most do not . It would be like comparing a patch & ball muzzle loader to a modern muzzle loader rifle . I thought you were comparing ballistics (energy) based on weight of projectile and velocity and that you therefore meant the 600 gr @ 1500 fps was outdated. The slug you mention offers 300 gr @ 2000 fps, which is really no different than what ANY of the large bore AR calibers will do (450, 458 and 50). Based on what I see, the slug gun offers 300 gr @ 2000 fps, which is identical to the large bore ARs in terms of muzzle energy. However, looking at the shape of the projectiles the AR calibers have better retained energy at range, as well as better potential accuracy. The other thing I am curious about, the what barrel length the slug velocities are using? Starting at 2000 fps Slug at 100 yards - 1641 fps, 2.7" high (150 yd zero) 300 gr JHP 458 at 100 yards - 1662 fps, 2.3" high (150 yd zero) - just BARELY (and I mean barely) better In all seriousness, I enjoy these posts, I learn from them, it forces me to do research, and it is like a good campfire "mine is better" banter. Shotguns have their place and you will find several in my collection (I do miss my M1S90...). They have an amazing versatility and can do things NO "typical" rifle will ever be able to do (not even our beloved large bore ARs). However, to claim that the slug gun (modern, rifled barrel) has any of the large bore AR calibers flat out beat, in my opinion (based on the ballistics, trajectory, energy) I have seen, is incorrect. The slug gun has NO CLEAR advantage over the AR and I would argue that due to the much wider selection of projectiles available to the ARs, the ARs outperform the RIFLED SLUG guns (if you want penetration, it is hard to beat the bullets available to the large bore ARs....) But, I will admit, I am biased toward the large bore ARs...
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If you read my posts ,I said there is no comparison . The org. poster just wanted to know why they paid 1K plus for a rifle that was going to have a recoil like a slug gun & I think we all gave him good reasons why. Even at my age & all the years repairing ,building AR type rifles ,I learn some thing every day here . All these new contraptions & configurations are mind boggling to me some times.
It does make me kinda wonder ,what does this powerful of a cartridge do to the serviceability of the rifles components ? |
| I think the slight buyers remorse the op might be experiencing is common and due to a decision to purchase based first on feelings or one side of the brain, followed by rational reasons one needs the product by the other side of the brain. We usually "want" something first and then rationalize why we need it. I read about this phonomina somewhere a long time ago in school. |
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If you read my posts ,I said there is no comparison . The org. poster just wanted to know why they paid 1K plus for a rifle that was going to have a recoil like a slug gun & I think we all gave him good reasons why. Even at my age & all the years repairing ,building AR type rifles ,I learn some thing every day here . All these new contraptions & configurations are mind boggling to me some times. It does make me kinda wonder ,what does this powerful of a cartridge do to the serviceability of the rifles components ? Sorry 'bout that, you mean we were arguing the same point  Next round is on me!  I can relate the buyers remorse, I have a P16-40 sitting here I am not sure why I bought it, just that I must still be lamenting the theft of my P13-45...
On the wear and tear of these large bore uppers on the rifles, I can report that I have been using a Tromix (Oly Arms) lower for the last 10 years to test ALL new loads, new uppers, new calibers, etc. While it shows wear, it is by no means in any worse shape that any well used AR, still has the original LPK installed and everything. CorBon was using the very first built upper for all their load testing and I know of 4 rifles now that have suffered some type of true failure - all were due to exceedingly high overpressure loads (some are speculated to have crossed the 100,000 psi mark) In all case, lug deformation occurred, but no ill effects to the shooter. As long as you stay at the recommended working pressure (note that all 3 main large bore calibers suggest the same max pressure of 35,000 psi) there has not been any reports of issues. We have reports of up to 3,000 rounds fired in one day which in these calibers is a LOT.... no issues reported other than sore shoulders and headaches... |
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I think the slight buyers remorse the op might be experiencing is common and due to a decision to purchase based first on feelings or one side of the brain, followed by rational reasons one needs the product by the other side of the brain. We usually "want" something first and then rationalize why we need it. I read about this phonomina somewhere a long time ago in school. As the original poster, I find this quote too funny (and spot on!). Ordered the SOCOM as a reward of sorts to myself. Really no remorse at this point, but the post was prompted by the lack of ammo availability. The ability to stop into any sporting goods store, gun shop or Wal-Mart and pick up slugs, buck shot or even .308 or .30-06 has it's attractiveness. Trying to acquire .458 SOCOM is like real work! Anyway, I pick up the rifle later this week (still no ammo although I do have brass) and will be happy to add it to the safe. BTW, I was a psych major (long time ago) for a few years until I wised up and moved into a more lucrative field. I bought this rifle because I want it, not because I need it. I honestly hope I never "need" it. But, if I do, good luck to the other guy!
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Got the gun, got the ammo. Now just some time to get to the range. Can't wait!!
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000019.jpg http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000023.jpg http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000024.jpg |
I'd really like a SOCOM just for the fun of shooting one....but at the same time, it's hard for me to justify the build when I could use the $ for other gun stuff. I don't hunt animals, so that whole aspect of it's utility is out the window for me. If I want shotgun-like performance with a semi-auto, I have a Siaga 12 and plenty of 10 round mags...and it cost way less.  I'd love to have an SBR one and a suppressor to use with the big 5/600 grain loads for some sweet subsonic action, but both SBRs and the use of a suppressor are illegal in my state. 
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I'd really like a SOCOM just for the fun of shooting one....but at the same time, it's hard for me to justify the build when I could use the $ for other gun stuff. I don't hunt animals, so that whole aspect of it's utility is out the window for me. If I want shotgun-like performance with a semi-auto, I have a Siaga 12 and plenty of 10 round mags...and it cost way less. I'd love to have an SBR one and a suppressor to use with the big 5/600 grain loads for some sweet subsonic action, but both SBRs and the use of a suppressor are illegal in my state. We got plenty of room here in GA for you to move here 
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Common slug barrel length is 21". I believe that's what I have on my 1187.
And just to stir the pot, Hastings has a 3.5" 20 gauge slug load now. Typically used in a custom chambered NEF. Quoted:
The other thing I am curious about, the what barrel length the slug velocities are using? |
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We got plenty of room here in GA for you to move here
my company (WFC) actually just posted a job in Atlanta. It's a promotion, and the job I want. If it was anywhere in GA but in the city, and I had equity in my house, I'd definitely consider moving there. I've had it with WA state gun laws. No one has even been murdered with a silenced gun in this state AFAIK, but they are banned. You can own one....but using one, even at a range, is illegal. That makes a lot of sense.
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Got the gun, got the ammo. Now just some time to get to the range. Can't wait!! http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000019.jpg http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000023.jpg http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/rcdice/IM000024.jpg lol your gonna need more than that one box of ammo . these things are like oreos . you just cant stop at one. have fun and enjoy your new rifle I know I love shooting mine.
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