AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/23/2011 10:06:00 AM EDT
|
I just got my new NRA magazine featuring the new Ruger Scout rifle and I wondered if anyone had done an AR-15 take on the concept. Lightweight, forward mounted long eye relief scope, etc. ? |
|
Quoted:
I just got my new NRA magazine featuring the new Ruger Scout rifle and I wondered if anyone had done an AR-15 take on the concept. Lightweight, forward mounted long eye relief scope, etc. ? I think the idea certainly has some merit. Keeping weight down would be an issue I would think. Lightweight parts would be a must. What about a Plum Crazy lower receiver? Simple FF HG like a JP or a Midwest Industries SS? 16" Barrel maybe in a recon profile. I'd love to see some pics. I would think a midsized caliber would work best. |
|
While I like the scout rifle concept, I don't feel the AR platform is quite the right fit for that purpose.
The scout rifle standard is .308 or similar, which puts us in AR10 territory. Other than that, a standard (quality) AR meets pretty much every other criteria of a scout rifle (ie length, weight, accuracy), save the forward mounted optic. While you could mount a red dot, or long eye relief scope forward, why? The purpose on a bolt rifle is to allow the use of stripper clips as the scout rifle was largely meant to be an updated mil-surp rifle. On an AR, this optic choice only serves to limit choices, as well as field of view. IMHO, an 16" AR in 6.8 or similar with a good 1-4 scope, BUIS and a good sling would provide all the functionality and more than a scout rifle, but looks nothing like what Cooper put together. If you're just talking looks and not so much functionality, then toss a long eye relief scope on a rifle with a good free float tube and have fun. |
|
Why?
You'd have to base it off a .308 AR, Keep it 6.6-7.7 lbs, and keep it under 34.5" Skipping the bolt action part of the definition. The rest would be difficult to do. Example, the SR-25 is 8.5lbs, and 37" total. It also needs to be able to be loaded internally with stripper clips and preferably have a built in bipod. The scout makes sense for bolt rifles. But trying to fit the AR15 into its pattern doesn't really make sense. If you want to stick a forward mounted long eye-relief scope on the forward rail of an AR and add a 3-point sling, you can. Doesn't make it a scout rifle. |
|
Quoted:
Why? You'd have to base it off a .308 AR, Keep it 6.6-7.7 lbs, and keep it under 34.5" Skipping the bolt action part of the definition. The rest would be difficult to do. Example, the SR-25 is 8.5lbs, and 37" total. It also needs to be able to be loaded internally with stripper clips and preferably have a built in bipod. The scout makes sense for bolt rifles. But trying to fit the AR15 into its pattern doesn't really make sense. If you want to stick a forward mounted long eye-relief scope on the forward rail of an AR and add a 3-point sling, you can. Doesn't make it a scout rifle. Why do you want to load an AR with stripper clips? Cooper came up with that requirement for bolt action rifles because of the way bolt action rifles are. When you run dry on an AR you can be ready to rock and roll with a fresh 30rd mag in a matter of seconds. I think that recce AR-15s are as close to the Scout concept as you can get on an AR-15. |
|
Go to the RBPrecision web site. He's in the Industry sub-forum. Go to the gallery section at RBP, and about 2/3 of the way through you will see the AR-scout concept in it's fool glory. Yep, I built it. And then recycled everything into more practical versions. FWIW it shot pretty damn well even at 200 yards.
Paladin |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? You'd have to base it off a .308 AR, Keep it 6.6-7.7 lbs, and keep it under 34.5" Skipping the bolt action part of the definition. The rest would be difficult to do. Example, the SR-25 is 8.5lbs, and 37" total. It also needs to be able to be loaded internally with stripper clips and preferably have a built in bipod. The scout makes sense for bolt rifles. But trying to fit the AR15 into its pattern doesn't really make sense. If you want to stick a forward mounted long eye-relief scope on the forward rail of an AR and add a 3-point sling, you can. Doesn't make it a scout rifle. Why do you want to load an AR with stripper clips? Cooper came up with that requirement for bolt action rifles because of the way bolt action rifles are. When you run dry on an AR you can be ready to rock and roll with a fresh 30rd mag in a matter of seconds. I think that recce AR-15s are as close to the Scout concept as you can get on an AR-15. You don't. My point was you can only get a scout style AR if you completely ignore the definition of a scout rifle. |
|
Quoted:
Go to the RBPrecision web site. He's in the Industry sub-forum. Go to the gallery section at RBP, and about 2/3 of the way through you will see the AR-scout concept in it's fool glory. Yep, I built it. And then recycled everything into more practical versions. FWIW it shot pretty damn well even at 200 yards. Paladin Can you save us the trouble and post pics? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? You'd have to base it off a .308 AR, Keep it 6.6-7.7 lbs, and keep it under 34.5" Skipping the bolt action part of the definition. The rest would be difficult to do. Example, the SR-25 is 8.5lbs, and 37" total. It also needs to be able to be loaded internally with stripper clips and preferably have a built in bipod. The scout makes sense for bolt rifles. But trying to fit the AR15 into its pattern doesn't really make sense. If you want to stick a forward mounted long eye-relief scope on the forward rail of an AR and add a 3-point sling, you can. Doesn't make it a scout rifle. Why do you want to load an AR with stripper clips? Cooper came up with that requirement for bolt action rifles because of the way bolt action rifles are. When you run dry on an AR you can be ready to rock and roll with a fresh 30rd mag in a matter of seconds. I think that recce AR-15s are as close to the Scout concept as you can get on an AR-15. You don't. My point was you can only get a scout style AR if you completely ignore the definition of a scout rifle. Ahh, I see. I think it's more about the concept of a scout rifle than the exact definition. The concept, and correct me if I am wrong, is to have a handy and lightweight rifle which is capable of being carried over long distances and successfully engaging targets out to hundreds of yards. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Go to the RBPrecision web site. He's in the Industry sub-forum. Go to the gallery section at RBP, and about 2/3 of the way through you will see the AR-scout concept in it's fool glory. Yep, I built it. And then recycled everything into more practical versions. FWIW it shot pretty damn well even at 200 yards. Paladin Can you save us the trouble and post pics? I think this is it: 
|
|
An AR15 with a good RDS is a Scout rifle. Making hits out to 300 yards is not hard, if you put some time into practice. Most people don't want to put any effort forth though, they would rather have some "concept" that can theoretically do what they think it should.
|
| I feel one of the reasons for the forward mounted optic on a bolt gun was to allow un-obscured access to the chamber if a round fails to eject or to manually feed rounds (or use stripper clips.) Also, I wonder if magnifiers used with a red dot were more common several years earlier, whether Cooper would've found them to be a practical substitute for a low power EER optic? |
|
Quoted:
I undertand that part. However, 5.56 is too small of a caliber as outlined by Jeff Cooper. Maybe 6.8 or 6.5 When I used to read Cooper's Corner in the 1990's, he wasn't a fan of the AR. I feel part of this was because of the lightweight 5.56 round, and if the 6.5 or 6.8 were available, he might've had a change of heart. The flat top upper and accessory rail handguards were also game changers for the AR platform. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I undertand that part. However, 5.56 is too small of a caliber as outlined by Jeff Cooper. Maybe 6.8 or 6.5 When I used to read Cooper's Corner in the 1990's, he wasn't a fan of the AR. I feel part of this was because of the lightweight 5.56 round, and if the 6.5 or 6.8 were available, he might've had a change of heart. The flat top upper and accessory rail handguards were also game changers for the AR platform. But the AR-10 was around though right? |
| The Scout concept as Cooper defined it belongs to bolt action, 30 cal rifles, for the most part. The new Ruger Scout is a hell of a neat rifle that would compliment just about anyones collection. Applying Cooper's requirements for his scout concept to the AR platform, IMHO, makes little sense. Let ARs be ARs and excell a what they do best and let the Scout concept be what it is. |
|
Quoted: The Scout concept as Cooper defined it belongs to bolt action, 30 cal rifles, for the most part. The new Ruger Scout is a hell of a neat rifle that would compliment just about anyones collection. Applying Cooper's requirements for his scout concept to the AR platform, IMHO, makes little sense. Let ARs be ARs and excell a what they do best and let the Scout concept be what it is. Heaven forbid that we might want to "think outside the box" and expand on a concept.  |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Scout concept as Cooper defined it belongs to bolt action, 30 cal rifles, for the most part. The new Ruger Scout is a hell of a neat rifle that would compliment just about anyones collection. Applying Cooper's requirements for his scout concept to the AR platform, IMHO, makes little sense. Let ARs be ARs and excell a what they do best and let the Scout concept be what it is. Heaven forbid that we might want to "think outside the box" and expand on a concept. I built an MP5 inspired AR, so I get it. However, it really depends on if youre thinking of a concept as utilitarian or aesthetic. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I undertand that part. However, 5.56 is too small of a caliber as outlined by Jeff Cooper. Maybe 6.8 or 6.5 When I used to read Cooper's Corner in the 1990's, he wasn't a fan of the AR. I feel part of this was because of the lightweight 5.56 round, and if the 6.5 or 6.8 were available, he might've had a change of heart. The flat top upper and accessory rail handguards were also game changers for the AR platform. But the AR-10 was around though right? I don't believe Cooper had any use for the M16/AR15 at all, certainly not in his developmet of a Scout Rifle. If memory serves, he consistently referred to them as poodle-shooters and rat-zappers. The Scout concept was a bolt action first and foremost, held to strict dimensions, with a long eye relief optic and chambered for .308 Winchester. |
|
Years ago I tried a Leupy scout scope in the forward position on a PRI tube
Did not like the wt shifted forward balance of the weapon....as I am much more comfortable with a neutrally balanced lt.wt. A high quality illuminated low power variable with long eye relief would be needed. I have also owned a Steyr Scout and ran a Leupy scout scope on it.... In states with repressive gun control laws a bolt action "Scout" with a 10 rnd detachable mag would be a decent alternative... imo |
| I built one with a Leupold 2.5 IER mounted forward on a ARMS extended rail. No, it didn't meet Cooper's definition. Yes, my wife loved it as her first deer rifle...light, handy, enough magnification for the Wisconsin woods, eye relief was non-critical. I've since sold it to a friend, who gave it to his niece for HER first deer rifle. I don't see a need to sneer at the concept. It worked very well. |
|
I tried, its really hard to get it just right. To get the knock down power that Cooper wanted for a scout rifle requires an AR-10. If you only own one gun, and want to hunt anything bigger than a white tail, you need something bigger than a 223. The catch comes that most, if not all AR-10 platforms are heavy, very heavy if you want to get great reliability and glass on them. Guns are a balance of many factors, power, weight, rate of fire, reliability, robustness, accuracy. Cooper chose to cut down on rate of fire to improve weight, reliability, and power. The AR platforms excels at rate of fire, as opposed to other traits. They are built in an opposing directions, making it a very difficult process to make an AR into a "Scout." Could it work, sure, if you live in a free-state, and may only have to shoot things sub-500 lbs and soft skinned, or if you would rather a high volume of fire with an 11+ pound rifle compared to a low volume of fire and an ~8 pound rifle. |
|
Quoted: That's what I'm trying to figure out...Quoted: Quoted: The Scout concept as Cooper defined it belongs to bolt action, 30 cal rifles, for the most part. The new Ruger Scout is a hell of a neat rifle that would compliment just about anyones collection. Applying Cooper's requirements for his scout concept to the AR platform, IMHO, makes little sense. Let ARs be ARs and excell a what they do best and let the Scout concept be what it is. Heaven forbid that we might want to "think outside the box" and expand on a concept. I built an MP5 inspired AR, so I get it. However, it really depends on if youre thinking of a concept as utilitarian or aesthetic. Cooper made that Scout rifle with specifications for a purpose. I don't know what the purpose is though really. But which are we trying to achieve with a AR platform? The Specifications? Or the purpose? or some mock up of partially both? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's what I'm trying to figure out...Quoted:
Quoted:
The Scout concept as Cooper defined it belongs to bolt action, 30 cal rifles, for the most part. The new Ruger Scout is a hell of a neat rifle that would compliment just about anyones collection. Applying Cooper's requirements for his scout concept to the AR platform, IMHO, makes little sense. Let ARs be ARs and excell a what they do best and let the Scout concept be what it is. Heaven forbid that we might want to "think outside the box" and expand on a concept. I built an MP5 inspired AR, so I get it. However, it really depends on if youre thinking of a concept as utilitarian or aesthetic. Cooper made that Scout rifle with specifications for a purpose. I don't know what the purpose is though really. But which are we trying to achieve with a AR platform? The Specifications? Or the purpose? or some mock up of partially both? The purpose was to have an all purpose rifle. Light for carry and quick target acquisition and powerful enough to take decent game. Most people think that the scout is only classified as having a forward mounted scope. In reality that was mostly a necessity to make use of his other qualifications, bolt rifle loadable by stripper clips. The stripper clip was his fix for quick loading, which was superceeded by external box magazines, which were not as common when the concept was born as of today. The closest a semi-auto could be to this concept is something like an SKS. Even though the caliber is too small. Trying to turn an AR into a Scout is like trying to make a suburban into an Astro van. |
|
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Specifications were just dated for the tech at the time. So if someone wants to make an AR a scout aesthetically like you said.....it's pure aesthetic. I'd like to see a list of specs, based on today's tech, to accomplish the same purpose though. I bet it's a ton easier. |
|
Quoted:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Specifications were just dated for the tech at the time. So if someone wants to make an AR a scout aesthetically like you said.....it's pure aesthetic. I'd like to see a list of specs, based on today's tech, to accomplish the same purpose though. I bet it's a ton easier. Using caliber and purpose as the only original starting point, i'd say. 308 AR with either a red dot or 1-4x optic. Or one of the new. 1.1-8x scopes. I'd also say 16" bbl, although cooper specified 19" for the scout. I think on modern semi-autos the 16" is probably a pretty good compromise. The only real disadvantage of the. 308 ARs is the size ans weight. Even a 16" AR is about a lb past the heaviest end of coopers weight list and several inches. ETA: The closest weight wise would be a SCAR-17. It's 7.6 lbs comes just under Coopers 7.7 lbs maximum. With the stock extended it's shorter (38") than Coopers desired maximum length (39.4"). Add a RDS, 1-4x, or 1.1-8x scope and you have a "modern scout rifle". With no chamber to need to be cleared, there's no reason to forward mount anything. |
|
AR10 with heavily fluted 16" SS barrel. Fixed stock. 4x ACOG mounted in normal, not the "scout" position. Add a canted aimpoint T1 and LW bipod.
The "scout concept" ching sling and long eye relief scope have no application on an AR platform. However, a light, handy rifle of good accuracy is possible in intended use, but not in the spirit of the scout rifle. 6.8, 6.5, etc would not work as they are not common mil calibers per col Cooper. However they would allow a lighter a r15 receiver to be used. |
|
I have personally handled several of the Gunsite rifles. Jeff Cooper's concept of a quick handling .30 caliper rifle for short to medium distances is executed very well by Ruger. There are a couple of things you have to take into consideration with this rifle. It is a sub-600 yard rifle, due to is barrel length. The 16.5" barrel loses over 200fps of velocity when compared to a 24" unit using 168gr BTHP. The clear advantage the Gunsite has over an AR-15 is the terminal performance of the ammunition used. The 168gr .308 Win carries the same energy at 450 yards as the 75gr .223 Rem/5.56mm BTHP at the muzzle.
I have one on order with my dealer it to be the buggy rifle. I will be installing a silencer, a RDS, and have a spare magazine with 210gr BTHP subsonic ammo for those needed surprise shots on game in the desert. |
|
Quoted: I have personally handled several of the Gunsite rifles. Jeff Cooper's concept of a quick handling .30 caliper rifle for short to medium distances is executed very well by Ruger. There are a couple of things you have to take into consideration with this rifle. It is a sub-600 yard rifle, due to is barrel length. The 16.5" barrel loses over 200fps of velocity when compared to a 24" unit using 168gr BTHP. The clear advantage the Gunsite has over an AR-15 is the terminal performance of the ammunition used. The 168gr .308 Win carries the same energy at 450 yards as the 75gr .223 Rem/5.56mm BTHP at the muzzle. I have one on order with my dealer it to be the buggy rifle. I will be installing a silencer, a RDS, and have a spare magazine with 210gr BTHP subsonic ammo for those needed surprise shots on game in the desert. Please remember that energy is NOT a wounding mechanism. It may be an indicator in some ways of power, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has more effective terminal ballistics. However, generally, .308 is going to be more damaging than 5.56mm, especially at range. 6.8 is probably the best multifunction cartridge thus far. I just wish it were cheaper since I'm not a reloader. |
|
The goal of the scout was to take average shooters and create a rifle that all of them could get hits with at average ranges in a caliber that could kill medium to meduim large game.
With that said the ACOG 3 & 3.5X is a near perfect scope for that application on a flattop and the 6.8 is a good caliber to use in this concept. Forget the rails and use 20 round mags it can be easy to get a 6.8 ar under 8 LBS. The forward mounted optic is just for fast acwuisition a red dot or ACOG will do this fine. Cooper also said good peep sights would also work so the a1 fits into the definition in all respects except caliber. |
|
I am in the process of a build right now that is kind of the same concept that Cooper had for his scout.
I'm using a 20" pencil barrel in 25-223 (25AR), put on a chopped Cav Arms lower, match trigger, flatop upper with the Lancer FF forearm (when it comes out). Back up irons of course and a 3-9x Accupoint (even though its 3-9x, it weighs only 11.4 oz which is very light given the magnification and illumination). I'm shooting for 7 pounds. This rifle will be easy to carry, capable of medium game out to 300 (100gr at 2700 fps), allows the use of standard AR magazines and 223 brass. IMO, a AR based rifle like above or in 6.x, is much more versatile than a 308 bolt gun. |
AR Sponsor
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter