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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:27:42 PM EDT
I am living proof that spending tons of money pimping out your rifle doesn't necessarily help you at all to become a better shot.
  This is one of my AR's right now. When it started out as standard 20" AR, I slapped a Burris scope on it (as well as a free-float tube and a Harris bipod), and was able to get about 1.5 MOA with Black Hills 68 gr blue box (measuring 10-shot groups). I figured the stock barrel (and the weak scope) might be limiting my accuracy. Then I had a White Oak match barrel added, a two-stage trigger, and got a more powerful scope - and I'm STILL shooting about 1.5 MOA with Black Hills blue box (both 68gr and 69gr). This is at 100 yards, btw.  I suck. I thought I was magically supposed to be a better shot, once I bought all the fancy parts for my rifle!   I guess the good news is that now I know that the rifle definitely outshoots me, and I can focus on really trying to improve my shooting skills. Now that I have a decent rifle setup, I hope to find time to shoot at least once a week and really make some improvements. My only remaining thin excuses at this point are:1) That it was actually pretty windy today at the range. I don't know how much wind could affect a 68/69 grain bullet over 100 yards, but maybe that was a slight factor. 2) My new scope is a somewhat cheap Barska scope. It seems to be pretty nice, and I heard some good stuff about them, so I wanted to try it. If I don't like it (or it can't hold zero), I'll switch to my better burris scope (although it is not as powerful). I also have a better scope mount (Armalite one-piece) I could use. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:33:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Looks like you did just fine to me.
We all can't be like some of the super marksmen here who actually get better the less they shoot and can consistently get sub-MOA groups all day with mil-spec ammo or Wolf out of their chrome lined barrels using only iron sights...
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:35:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Nah. I shoot the same way with a scope and manage to shoot high master scores across the course. Put a sling on that baby and it'll sing.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:36:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks In truth, some of these groups would have absolutely kicked ass (like 1/2 MOA), if I had stopped at 3 or 5 rounds. 
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:36:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Well, at least it looks good!
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:38:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Try more sizes in grain like 75 and down to the 45. My gun hate the 68 stuff it opens up the pattern like your with the 68. I purchased all sizes of grain from Blackhills and found out my 1in9 twist 24 inch Bushmaster likes the 75 gr. stuff and it likes the Winchester white box 45 gr. varmint rounds from Wally World. So try more ammo and let us know. OUT. Tuna
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:41:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Yeah - I'm definitely going to try the 75gr, since the 1/7 twist in the new barrel will easily handle it. Today, I was shooting both 68 grain and 69 grain SMK - and both grouped about the same. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:44:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Time to start reloading.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:45:43 PM EDT
[#8]
You might be surprised what the wind can do when you are trying to shoot tiny groups, even at 100 yards. A 10 mph wind from 3 o'clock can deflect your shot 1.1" at 100 yards. (figures are for a 69 grain SMK with a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps) If the wind shifts during your next shot and it is now coming from 9 o'clock your shot is now deflected 1.1" in the opposite direction of your first shot. If you did everything perfect, except account for the wind, you're looking at a 2.2" group at 100 yards. I love to spend my disposable income on expensive enhancements for my AR-15s, but a really inexpensive item that can help when you are trying to shoot tiny groups is a simple wind flag. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:46:04 PM EDT
[#9]
That'll definitely make me a better shot, right?
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:47:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Most of the internet groups are like fishing stories.
There is zero shame in shooting an honest 1.5 MOA group, especially if you can do it on demand. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:48:27 PM EDT
[#11]
My groups are always spectacular up to a point and then the second shot screws it up. Regards, Mild Bill Even moderation can be over-done. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:56:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Well, there's my excuse! Seriously - thanks for the info. I had no idea it could make such a difference over such a relatively "short" distance. I believe winds were about 15 mph (gusting to about 20-22 mph), and was definitely at an angle (although not quite perpendicular). The target stand did sometimes move back and forth a little while I was sighting (but I always tried to get the shot off when it wasn't moving), and since I was shooting 68 and 69 grain, maybe the wind had more of an effect that I thought. When I went, I figured the side berms would minimize the effect of the wind, but there definiely was some wind there. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:58:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Here is one fix---shoot 3 shot groups and you will find SOME group tighten up.
Here is what I did for my varmint hunt last year. I bought as many Blue Box and Red Box BH in Ballistic Tip and Match from 40 to 68 to try to find a good match for my two ARs that I brought on a hunt. The Match grade performed well 3/4" MOA 5 Shots, but the 50 grain BT Blue Box BH performed consistantly at 3/4", others opened up to 1.5" It was perfect because I could get 1000 round boxes of BTs. Just try several different rounds and it will get better. Just like Stickman said----that is nothing to be ashamed off. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:59:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Dont be so hard on yourself, those shots are all 'minute of azzzhole'.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:04:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Nope, but it can make a bullet specificially tuned to your rifle, and that can help a bunch. TXL |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:04:19 PM EDT
[#16]
I knew a guy who used to make claims that his el-cheapo no-name franken-gun would shoot 0.25 MOA groups at 100 yards. Turns out his " groups" consisted of 2 shots each . Stick with your 10 shot groups. You will have a much better idea of what you, your gun and your ammo are capable of. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:06:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Beat me to it. Unless someone posts pics, don't believe them about their group sizes. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:06:31 PM EDT
[#18]
DK-Prof .......
Here is a tip............ if you are using that Bi-pod [ or any ]............ don't ! Your groups will improve significantly JF. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:08:19 PM EDT
[#19]
that isnt that bad
wether it be a person, deer, antelope, prairie dog those are all good hits a consistant 1.5 moa is good especially for 10 shot groups |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:08:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Yes, but only if you buy the really expensive stuff!
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:12:42 PM EDT
[#21]
maybe im ignorant of this or just an odd ball, but i shoot alot better groups in the prone with my bipod than i do with a sling, well not alot better, but a little better now on the bench i shoot about the same, but without the bipod my arm gets tired faster. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:13:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Do you mean to shoot without support completely (using a sling), or do you mean replace it with a stable rest, like a sandbag or one of those shooting rest thingys? Sorry if I don't quite understand your point - I'm not trying to be obtuse. For some odd reason (that I'm not sure I can even articulate well), I don't like shooting off a rest, since it seems too "contrived" or "artificial" somehow. Shooting with the bipod is something I know I can do anywhere. Not trying to knock anyone that does shoot off a rest - obviously that's probably the best way to get the most out of a rifle (or mounting it into some contraption designed to keep it rock-solid), but I just don't like it myself. Maybe it's just remnants of my days in the infantry, that I somehow feel that, whatever I can shoot at the range, I should be able to do in other settings too. Most likely, I am just slightly crazy.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:17:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Damn good in my book. IMO most of the claims here are bs...could be wrong though.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:19:44 PM EDT
[#24]
You should see my groups go south if I go shooting after a good dose of caffeine.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:21:03 PM EDT
[#25]
I figure most of the pictures were shot at 25 yards......
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:31:31 PM EDT
[#26]
+1 caffiene Fs me up pretty good also --Breath --Eyes open --muscle contol, try not to strain --take your time --follow up |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:40:05 PM EDT
[#27]
I've always found that shooting with my eyes closed does tend to reduce accuracy. (I'm just funnin with ya - I know what you mean) |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:45:48 PM EDT
[#28]
I couldn't do most of my job without a bi-pod. We're not allowed to bring shooting benches with us on call-outs and front and rear rests are too cumbersome to stalk with. Usually, it's prone or some other painfully uncomfortable position. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:00:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Those are fine groups if your not doping the wind. If your winds were anything like they were here in Kansas this past weekend....those are good groups with no wind attention factored in.
I shoot at a range with primarly benchrest shooter and while I was sitting there 1.5" groups (I couldnt find a sweet spot in the wind) the guy on the bench next to me had a 5 shot group that looked like one slightly oblong hole. Talk about "scoreboard". Then again he is a Distinguished Expert and this is his private range but still it was a fine group. I was happy to have 4 shots within 2" (2 each touched) at 200 yards on Sunday. Too bad the 5th shot was like 4 inches away lol! If you want to learn the wind get some wind flags. They can be pricy so if your on a budget, get some 24"-36" construction stakes and staple some streamers on them, place them down range so you can watch them as you are on target (both eyes open) and it should help you get a feel for the wind. I have an old set of Sinclair flags (complete with bullet holes from the Super Shoot) that look a lot like wind vanes with streamers on the end. They help a bunch. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:01:43 PM EDT
[#30]
try differnt ammo brands and bullet weights.
reloading may not make you a better shooter but it makes it easy to try lots of different loads. what is the twist rate on the barrel? how long do you wait between shots? really your shooting is fine try some different loads and let us know how it works out. If isn't any better just send me your rifle and I"ll " test" it for you 
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:01:47 PM EDT
[#31]
I tend to think that rifle and ammo combination should shoot better than that. I have a WOA SS barrel on my rifle and it's non-floated and shoots 1" to 1.5" inches with several types of ammo. Try different ammo, prone with the bipod and then resting the folded bipod on a rest like a shooting bag. I have to watch very carefully what the scope crosshairs are doing and position the rifle until there's no pulse movement. I have a problem with that "tick tick tick" sideways movement. HTH, peasant.
ETA : at 100 yds. I'm not sure a 15 mph wind is going to be that big a factor. But, I could be wrong on that. I was wrong once before. And try 3 shot groups to really check things out. That tells you about your rifle and ammo combination. 5-10 shots tells you about you. BTW : sweet rig! |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:02:45 PM EDT
[#32]
That looks like minute of dead to me. Good 'nuff!
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:07:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Get rid of the Bipod and get a good Sinclair Benchrest that will knock your group down, Do some reloading, there is no reason that rig should shoot over 1"! hell dont even have to be a sinclair, the Rock rest is a good one.
oddly on one of my builds I found that the A2 flash hider also made for shitty groups, would shoot 1/2" better without the FH than with, thats shooting 5 times with, then taking it off and shooting 5 more times without on a clean barrel. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:10:00 PM EDT
[#34]
My 5.56MM RECCEs with Douglas (1:7) and Lilja (1:8) shoot 0.45MOA with 75gr Hornaday TAP and ~0.6MOA for BH 75gr for me consistently. MK262 MOD1 is ~0.75MOA. Wes (MSTN) built them for me (he sent me targets with both 69gr and MK262 MOD1 which were all sub-MOA. I personally can't get any of the 68/69gr SMK loadings to shoot that well. Must have a mental flinch factor when it's not 75-77gr.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:24:22 PM EDT
[#35]
I have the same bipod and when I use it my shooting is worse for sure. There is a lot of play in most bipods. I've been looking for a good bench rest to see just what my setup is capable of but so far the best I've done is off sand bags. Using the sling is better as well.
But in all honesty I would not be shamed of those groups. They are good enough for me not to ever want to be down range from you
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:26:16 PM EDT
[#36]
I agree on the Winchester 45 gr. Varmint. EXCELLENT ammo if you don't mind the light bullets. I know my paper targets can't tell the difference.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:30:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Looks pretty good to me. It should tighten up some as you learn how the POI shifts as the barrel heats up, and you get the right rhythm down. I also don't like the massive bench rests that a lot of people use. A bipod on a free float tube works fine to keep pressure off the barrel, but it can still transmit vibrations to the upper if you are using it on a hard surface without any padding. A rear bag/ sand sock to help steady the butt helps a lot too.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 2:35:28 PM EDT
[#38]
like the dude said, take it off the bi-pod and put it on a nice sandbag, also use 3 or 4 different brands of ammo at a sitting. all in all though, you don't shoot bad.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:03:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Every rifle barrel has a favorite load.
You need to find yours.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:08:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Mount your optics properly, and I bet your groups will shrink. You have the number 1 problem I see with people mounting "bolt-gun" optics on an AR. There is no way you can ge betting the proper eye-relief and a consistant cheek weld.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:20:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Only thing that would suck would be the person or thing on the other end of that shooting. I don't see anything wrong with your shooting.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:44:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Thank you, I feel so much better now.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:53:34 PM EDT
[#43]
The scope needs to go further forward? Sorry if that seems like a really dumb question - I'm really not very experienced with a relatively powerful scope like this, but I have the feeling it should perhaps be further forward.(Boy am I going to feel dumb if you say "move it back" )I really appreciate all the advice. I'm still pretty new at trying to shoot small groups, and I'm probably making all kinds of beginner mistakes. I'll probably switch to my Armalite one-piece mount anyway, which might make it a little easier to move it a little forward. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 3:58:57 PM EDT
[#44]
A buddy of mine gave me some of those targets. I've never had any of that fancy stuff since I've only been to a "pay me" range a few times. 1.5 MOA ain't too bad for a battle rifle.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:08:32 PM EDT
[#45]
+1 |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:10:15 PM EDT
[#46]
if you are new at shooting, lay the rifle on a solid rest, exhale slowly while slowly squezing the trigger, try to time it so the rifle fire at the end of your exhaled breath. it may steady you a little. you really should not know when the bang is going to happen when shooting paper.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:15:31 PM EDT
[#47]
DK,
Yes you probably want to move the scope forward, (farther away from your eye). There are two basic setups you can use. The first is to use a picatinny sight rail and use your present scope rings as in the first picture below. The second is to use some type of "goose neck" mount like the LaRue Tactical mounts shown in the second picture.  
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:16:08 PM EDT
[#48]
The 1/7 barrel will shoot all the heavy bullets up to and including the 90's. Try some 77 gr SMK's!
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:22:33 PM EDT
[#49]
If you had a decent scope like an MRT or ACOG and properly mounted it that would probably help. That's not terrible anyway and the rifle barely looks pimped to me (FF forend and decent barrel.
Do you have a match grade trigger? That could easilly help- it's work for me to shoot under 1 MOA with a standard trigger, and childs play to do 1/2-3/4 MOA with a JP. If black hills won't reloads won't. Don't worry about that. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 4:47:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Looks good to me. If I want tighter groups I shoot a smaller target, aim small miss small. (business cards work nice) I agree with what some here have said, groupings are like fishing stories most of the time.
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