Posted: 1/19/2011 4:26:05 PM EDT
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Hello all,
This is the day so many of you have been waiting for. I cannot tell you how many phone calls we receive each and every week asking us why we cannot sell you an IR laser. Well today everyone's ship has come in! Laser Devices which we are their top level distributor, has just announced at Shot Show their new line of Class I IR lasers for sale to the commercial market. We are finally VERY happy to offer the following IR devices. DBAL-I2 MSRP EA. ($966.00) - Dual Beam - Vis. Red Pointer/IR Pointer EOLAD-1I ($1440.00) ITAL-Classic ($678.00) OTAL-Classic ($678.00) Specifications: Type: Infrared Wavelength: 835nm Class: 1 (Eye Safe) Beam Divergence: 0.3 mrad Range (75-100m) Temp Range: -40C - +51C We will begin to start taking orders via Monday, 1/24/2011. You may email our sales Dept now to get on the initial list as we are away at the Shot Show. We are EXTREMELY happy to finally offer LEGAL and FULLY warrantied (1 year DBAL-I2/ITAL/OTAl & 2 year EOLAD 1I) IR lasers to the commercial market. Thanks all. Vic |
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Quoted: Hello all, This is the day so many of you have been waiting for. I cannot tell you how many phone calls we receive each and every week asking us why we cannot sell you an IR laser. Well today everyone's ship has come in! Laser Devices which we are their top level distributor, has just announced at Shot Show their new line of Class I IR lasers for sale to the commercial market. We are finally VERY happy to offer the following IR devices. DBAL-I2 MSRP EA. ($966.00) - Dual Beam - Vis. Red Pointer/IR Pointer EOLAD-1I ($1440.00) ITAL-Classic ($678.00) OTAL-Classic ($678.00) Specifications: Type: Infrared Wavelength: 835nm Class: 1 (Eye Safe) Beam Divergence: 0.3 mrad Range (75-100m) Temp Range: -40C - +51C We will begin to start taking orders via Monday, 1/24/2011. You may email our sales Dept now to get on the initial list as we are away at the Shot Show. We are EXTREMELY happy to finally offer LEGAL and FULLY warrantied (1 year DBAL-I2/ITAL/OTAl & 2 year EOLAD 1I) IR lasers to the commercial market. Thanks all. Vic What is different about these new Class I IR lasers? |
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Quoted: So are these are basically as bright as a milspec laser with the safety bolt in? I'm thinking around .4 mw output. The deal with Class 1 is that no matter how much exposure you have to the laser beam you can not exceed the Permissible Exposure Limit at any time. .02 -Arbiter ETA: I was close. Here: Class 1 LaserA class 1 laser is safe under all conditions of normal use. This means the maximum permissible exposure (MPE) cannot be exceeded. This class includes high-power lasers within an enclosure that prevents exposure to the radiation and that cannot be opened without shutting down the laser. For example, a continuous laser at 600 nm can emit up to 0.39 mW, but for shorter wavelengths, the maximum emission is lower because of the potential of those wavelengths to generate photochemical damage. The maximum emission is also related to the pulse duration in the case of pulsed lasers and the degree of spatial coherence. |
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Gents, indeed as mentioned these are low power systems that are "clocked-down" from the Class 3b high power systems. Also, for those wondering if they can simply take the units apart to bring up the power levels...We are told the diodes and specific points are encased with epoxy and will break pretty easy if manipulated. It will also void the warranty if any unit is opened up.
We also posed the question in several meetings with LDI, if any older units Vis. OTAL/ITAL units can be converted over to IR versions? At this point, LDI is not able to do the conversions and some of this has to do with the new models are water proof down to 20m as they have changed the internal design to accommodate the new water proof spec. We will be putting the units through their paces very shortly with several Gen 3 devices to get the skinny on true ranges. We also DO understand these are short range systems and not for folks who need to go out past 100 yards. With a low power system, one also has to look at how an IR illuminator like our IR Torch or SF Vampires, M1's etc will effect the beam. More to come...Just trying to get out all the info we are getting up to speed on. Vic P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. |
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Quoted: Gents, indeed as mentioned these are low power systems that are "clocked-down" from the Class 3b high power systems. Also, for those wondering if they can simply take the units apart to bring up the power levels...We are told the diodes and specific points are encased with epoxy and will break pretty easy if manipulated. It will also void the warranty if any unit is opened up. We also posed the question in several meetings with LDI, if any older units Vis. OTAL/ITAL units can be converted over to IR versions? At this point, LDI is not able to do the conversions and some of this has to do with the new models are water proof down to 20m as they have changed the internal design to accommodate the new water proof spec. We will be putting the units through their paces very shortly with several Gen 3 devices to get the skinny on true ranges. We also DO understand these are short range systems and not for folks who need to go out past 100 yards. With a low power system, one also has to look at how an IR illuminator like our IR Torch or SF Vampires, M1's etc will effect the beam. More to come...Just trying to get out all the info we are getting up to speed on. Vic P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. Can you also do it with a D-300, or will these for some reason not work well with Gen 2? |
| I think this is great news and it is about time. As someone who has owned various IR lasers dating back to the early 90's I have never found a real need for them in hunting applications. IR illuminators yes, IR lasers not really and certainly not beyond 100 yards but this is great news all the same. |
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Quoted:
Gents, indeed as mentioned these are low power systems that are "clocked-down" from the Class 3b high power systems. Also, for those wondering if they can simply take the units apart to bring up the power levels...We are told the diodes and specific points are encased with epoxy and will break pretty easy if manipulated. It will also void the warranty if any unit is opened up. We also posed the question in several meetings with LDI, if any older units Vis. OTAL/ITAL units can be converted over to IR versions? At this point, LDI is not able to do the conversions and some of this has to do with the new models are water proof down to 20m as they have changed the internal design to accommodate the new water proof spec. We will be putting the units through their paces very shortly with several Gen 3 devices to get the skinny on true ranges. We also DO understand these are short range systems and not for folks who need to go out past 100 yards. With a low power system, one also has to look at how an IR illuminator like our IR Torch or SF Vampires, M1's etc will effect the beam. More to come...Just trying to get out all the info we are getting up to speed on. Vic P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. That is great news! I'm in line for that... |
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Alright gentlemen, here is my initial report. we have them on the shelf and ready go as we speak.
DBAL-I2 Class1 I'm working on getting the OTAL and ITAL versions up right now, but they are also in stock. Let's start with the function. To start off, these are low power units to make them eye safe. While a standard issue AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-15A is at least 5mW with higher power units available, the average civie doesn't need this kind of range anyway. Outside targeting, one of the main functions of an IR laser is communication- especially with Aerial Units. They can be used to point out distant targets to air or other ground teams. But, this needs to be mitigated with the fact that you can really only point out as far as you can see with your NVGs. While Gen3 can see a long distance, positive ID of a potential threat under non magnified NVGs becomes somewhat difficult past 100 yards. The longest shot I have made off hand in this capacity was with an AN/PVS-7B and an Israeli-made IR Laser from ITL on my weapon at just over 200 yards. While anecdotal, the vast majority of laser use in my career has been at ranges of 100 yards in. This is perfect for the new Class1 lasers since they are maxing out at 100 yards. The manual says they are good to 75 meters. I took my trusty laser rangefinder out over the past couple nights and decided to get my own test data. 75 yards yielded a very visible pointer. I was very impressed with the beam divergence because the shape was quite circular. But, I was able to push it out to 100 yards + (albeit the pointer tended to start dropping off quick past about 115 yards). But, it performed very well. The photos you see on our website are during cloudy/no moon conditions. The nice thing about the lower power is that it lends itself very well to CQB applications. The problem with the full power units is that they bloom all over the place at close range. Depending on the environment, this can be exacerbated by light colored walls. It is often hard to make pinpoint accurate shots at close range because of the large halo produced by the back splash. The lower power of the Class1 lasers produces reduced splash and more accuracy potential. One of the things I was worried about was the affect of an IR illuminator in addition to the reduced power laser. I afraid that the illuminator might wash out the pointer. I generally run an illuminator and pointer in tandem during MOUT/CQB scenarios. The DBAL-I2 Class1 substitutes the IR Illuminator of the full power version with a visible Class IIIa laser. This is because traditional IR illuminators built into multi function laser units like the DBAL are built from lasers as well (Class IIIb). They require a higher output to create the wide, focusable beams. There is really no way to produce this affect with 0.07mW (the maximum output for eye safe). So, a handy visible laser was substituted for the illuminator in the DBAL-I2 variant. As stated previously, the visible laser is available in red or green. Now I know some of you are saying "what about the LED IR Illuminators like the ELR torch-V and Surefire Vampire?" Yes, you can get a very impressive, eye safe, IR Illuminator out of an LED. But, the components would not fit in the legacy body housings of the DBAL-I2, OTAL, and ITAL. So, you just gotta use an auxiliary IR Illuminator. This brings us to another great feature: LDI is using legacy body housings for the Class1 units. This is extremely exciting because they make (in my opinion) the most robust Mil Spec laser housings on the market. All housings are precision machined and milspec coated aerospace grade aluminum. The mounts are removable, but there is no reason to do so. LDI launched their extremely impressive HT throw lever mount last year and it quickly became my favorite throw lever mount. Chappy had a big hand in the design, but suffice to say, it is very strong, well-made, and self adjusting. The last part is important. I tend to not use a lot of throw levers on my guns. I jumped into the whole throw lever thing with everyone else several years ago, but came to the conclusion that I am rarely (if ever) removing accessories from my guns once they are set up. So, throw levers just added extra weight and snag points. My job requires that I have extra bells and whistles like IR lasers on my guns anyway, so every shaved ounce counts. But, most lasers came with throw lever mounts. LDI used to use ARMS mounts. Back in the day, I would replace them with Larue mounts. The problem was the LT mounts required the wrench to adjust the tension to varying dimensioned rails. Once the mount was attached, the space between the adjustment nut and laser body was too tight to fit the wrench. So, adjusting it was a PITA. But, LDI's new HT mount is completely self-adjusting, doesn't have a bunch of small breakable parts, and is as strong as the LT mounts (in my opinion). Also, the metal to metal contact with the rail is a major plus for durability - unlike the ATPIAL. There are a lot of fly-by-night companies that have tried to develop and market civie-legal IR lasers over the years. Most fell on their faces. The few that worked, were never durable enough to make it past airsoft. So, along comes LDI with true civie-legal IR lasers in MilSpec housings that have been proven in the fight against Hadji. They function well, test better than the stated specs, and even have benefits over standard power units in CQB situations. I am very impressed with the performance of these units. They fill a large empty space in the market. 
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Great review and agree entirely about the issues of the halo and back splash from the higher power lasers. In my experience they obliterate the target (predators) and do not allow for precise shot placement unless you introduce IR illumination.
I am curious about the IR Illuminator portion of your write up. Now I am not a techi but it was my understanding that the issue with class 3b not being eye safe is related to the beams collimation (narrow beam). Couldn't the case be made for a variance if they meaning LDI made an IR illuminator based on a class 3b that utilized a diffuser that spread the beam to 180 degrees so it was not collimated thus there would be no issues with eye safety? |
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Quoted:
Great review and agree entirely about the issues of the halo and back splash from the higher power lasers. In my experience they obliterate the target (predators) and do not allow for precise shot placement unless you introduce IR illumination. I am curious about the IR Illuminator portion of your write up. Now I am not a techi but it was my understanding that the issue with class 3b not being eye safe is related to the beams collimation (narrow beam). Couldn't the case be made for a variance if they meaning LDI made an IR illuminator based on a class 3b that utilized a diffuser that spread the beam to 180 degrees so it was not collimated thus there would be no issues with eye safety? I would hate to speculate on the legalities. 
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Got ya covered Larry.
Also just so folks know. We sold out of the first batch of Class 1's the very first day we got them in. The next batch is do in next week where we will be sending all the back orders out. LDI is ramping up production and we will continue to order as many as we can to keep up with the demand. Sorry for the short waits. Thank you.
Vic |
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I'm curious just how far the product line is expected to go. Couild one expect there to be, for instance, a combination IR laser/IR illuminator model, or even a visible laser/IR laser/IR illuminator model? ETA: Think something along the lines of a LDI DBAL-I^2 or DBAL-A^2. Side Note : doesn't the DBAL-I^2 from the LDI catalog have an IR laser and an IR illuminator? I thought the DBAL-I had the visible laser and an IR laser. |
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Quoted:
I'm curious just how far the product line is expected to go. Couild one expect there to be, for instance, a combination IR laser/IR illuminator model, or even a visible laser/IR laser/IR illuminator model? I think LDI has sold out their first batch. Insight can't even get enough orders for their PEQ-15 Vis model to start production. Obviously people want the IR lasers and not just look alikes. I'd say if insight got it the game there will probably be some good competition. I'd hope that eventually any good units would have a Class 1 version. |
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Did more shooting with the DBAL-I2 tonight with NO Moon. Easily made hits on a man sized steel target at 125 yards with no IR illumination. The laser lit up the target enough to see it. Feeling better about the PRACTICAL uses of the unit. Would I like more power? YES, but, it is better than nothing or a stolen unit right now. Thanks to Vic and Chip! |
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Quoted: P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. Out of curiosity, how well does a green visible laser show up in the generated green field of NVDs? Anything worth being aware of? Also, is there any kind of official waiting list for the incoming batch we could add our names/e-mail to to be notified? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. Out of curiosity, how well does a green visible laser show up in the generated green field of NVDs? Anything worth being aware of? Also, is there any kind of official waiting list for the incoming batch we could add our names/e-mail to to be notified? Hi N. Green vis will basically be the same "color" of course when viewed though a NOD...  You will see some bloom and target laser splash at shorter ranges due to the 5mW vis based on environmental conditions as well. For longer ranges the vis works well but of course laser discipline is key to only turn the vis laser on when one is only about to pull the trigger to remain as stealthy as one can expect using a vis laser. Hope this helps.
Vic |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. Out of curiosity, how well does a green visible laser show up in the generated green field of NVDs? Anything worth being aware of? Also, is there any kind of official waiting list for the incoming batch we could add our names/e-mail to to be notified? Hi N. Green vis will basically be the same "color" of course when viewed though a NOD... You will see some bloom and target laser splash at shorter ranges due to the 5mW vis based on environmental conditions as well. For longer ranges the vis works well but of course laser discipline is key to only turn the vis laser on when one is only about to pull the trigger to remain as stealthy as one can expect using a vis laser. Hope this helps. Vic Indeed. Given that the Class 1 IR laser is reduced power, that would leave the visible laser for target designation from an overwatch position. Green seems to be the laser color du jour, given its distinguishability from the "ordinary" red laser where to field of contact would require it. It simply occurred to me that green on green might be problematic unless the columnation/intensity were able to overcome that factor. Of course, the alternative is the red laser utilizing a beamshaper of some sort. |
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With the new release of the C1 LDI units, we've been asked a lot about this...
The dual tape switches for these units. BOTH, the Surefire SR07-D-IT and Insight's Dual Button Remote will fit the DBAL-Units. Only difference, each manufactures light plug will only work with their own respective lights. Hope this helps. Vic |
| You are going to have to move X300 on the 12 o'clock rail. I know this is a new and popular place to mount it (and I really like the concept), but it does not work if you are running a laser. The beams will splash on the body housing of the light, providing a larger signature for your position. As for the offset light mount, it is doable, but depends on the light and mount. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Gents, indeed as mentioned these are low power systems that are "clocked-down" from the Class 3b high power systems. Also, for those wondering if they can simply take the units apart to bring up the power levels...We are told the diodes and specific points are encased with epoxy and will break pretty easy if manipulated. It will also void the warranty if any unit is opened up. We also posed the question in several meetings with LDI, if any older units Vis. OTAL/ITAL units can be converted over to IR versions? At this point, LDI is not able to do the conversions and some of this has to do with the new models are water proof down to 20m as they have changed the internal design to accommodate the new water proof spec. We will be putting the units through their paces very shortly with several Gen 3 devices to get the skinny on true ranges. We also DO understand these are short range systems and not for folks who need to go out past 100 yards. With a low power system, one also has to look at how an IR illuminator like our IR Torch or SF Vampires, M1's etc will effect the beam. More to come...Just trying to get out all the info we are getting up to speed on. Vic P.S. There will be green laser version of the DBAL-I2 instead of the standard initial offering red vis. Price not yet announced on this version. Can you also do it with a D-300, or will these for some reason not work well with Gen 2? 835nm shows up just fine on Gen 1 and 2 gear.
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Quoted:
Great review and agree entirely about the issues of the halo and back splash from the higher power lasers. In my experience they obliterate the target (predators) and do not allow for precise shot placement unless you introduce IR illumination. I am curious about the IR Illuminator portion of your write up. Now I am not a techi but it was my understanding that the issue with class 3b not being eye safe is related to the beams collimation (narrow beam). Couldn't the case be made for a variance if they meaning LDI made an IR illuminator based on a class 3b that utilized a diffuser that spread the beam to 180 degrees so it was not collimated thus there would be no issues with eye safety? The biggest issue with a high power illuminator is right at the output, even at 180 degree spread, it still exceeds allowable levels. A larger diameter output lens would be required to reduce the specific exposure level to within legal limit; think tactical flashlight sized. |