[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Accuracy of AR15 Ammo - Part 2 Pics (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/4/2006 9:52:02 AM EDT
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My friend Chapperjoe sent me a note asking if I would test some ammo that he had bought. Mainly, he was interested in the Guatemalan ammo that AIM Surplus had on sale, but he also had some other ammo to throw in the mix. He sent me a few rounds of each and we filled in with some stuff we were interested in. Then, off to the range. We had done a test on the accuracy of military spec ammo a while back. Here it is: Accuracy Part 1 But this "new" ammo was just now becoming available and we decided to give it a try. Here we are at the range. I am shooting my DPMS Model A-15, with a heavy stainless 1 in 9 barrel. This has proven to be a very accurate rifle and usually capable of sub-minute groups with handloads.  Shooting will be at 100 yards. Here's the results.  Group #1 - Handloads, .87 inches. (I can usually do better.) #2 - Guatemalan 55 gr, 2.43 inches (opened badly by a flyer) #3 - SS 109, 2.7 inches #4 - Wolf polymer, 6.1 inches #5 - Blackhills Mk 262, 1.88 inches Second target:  #6 - Blackhills 52 grain, 1.68 inches #7 - Winchester 45 grain, 1.52 inches (4 shot group) We decided to let Tman take a try.  Last target:  #8 - Handloads, .91 inches #9 - Tman shooting Guatemalan, 1.64 inches #10 - Tman Winchester 3131A, 1.48 inches Conclusions: 1. These are 5 shot groups. If we shot a lot more of them, we would have a better average group size. However, we were just looking at a snapshot of what kind of groups these rounds would shoot out of a high quality rifle. 2. The Guatemalan surplus seems to shoot within 2 inches. This is actually pretty good for Milspec ammo. The government requires 2 MOA, and that's about what they get. 3. The SS 109 was some hot stuff, meaning it was loaded hot. But its accuracy wasn't particularly great. 4. We shoot a lot of Wolf Polymer. It's great for plinking, but it's only about Minute of Pie Plate. That's fine, as long as you know what you are getting for the money. 5. And lastly, as I noted in Part 1, anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.  |
Thanks for the testing. Thanks for someone actually telling it like it is in regards to the conclusion #5 
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I've always been happy with how the guat stuff works, glad others are having good results with it. I've never shot .223 wolf, and after those pics I doubt I ever will. I need all the help I can get.I have a 9mm carbine with a Colt scope and I can do better then that with cheapass S&B ammo. [not talking about your shooting abilities, I'm talking about the ammo quality as far as accuracy is concerned. |
That's one of the reasons that we wanted to do this one, both parts 1 & 2. Tman especially goes ballistic when someone posts and says, "Yep, I can shoot 1/2 inch groups with my AR and milspec ammo, all day." The correct response is, "No. You can't." Milspec ammo is usually about 2 minute ammo. And it doesn't matter what gun you shoot them out of, they will not do better than 2 inches. Sure, you may have a 1 inch group once in a while. But that doesn't make your rifle and ammo "sub-minute". It just means that you once shot a small group. There is nothing to be ashamed of if you shoot milspec ammo into 2 inches. That's what it was designed to do. |
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awesome. just awesome. Guatemalen stuff seems to be consistent above all else. That T-man group is great! I try and load up on Mk262, Q3131A - it's great to see what the rounds can do when people who actually know how to shoot do it! I buy the 262 cause I know of its capabilities, but its good to see it done for real! These would've been frame and hang targets for me: #5 - Blackhills Mk 262, 1.88 inches #9 - Tman shooting Guatemalan, 1.64 inches #10 - Tman Winchester 3131A, 1.48 inches |
Glad you enjoyed it. Many thanks for the ammo and help. That group #2 would have been about .93 inches without the flyer. I believe that the Guat stuff is good ammo. More tests will let me know.  |
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O_P, Someday if you have the time, could you try the test again using a couple differant rifles, same ammo? It would be nice to see what you can actually gain accuracy wise with heavy vs std barrel, and see just how much difference there is with two rifles with the same barrel. |
Sure. We'll give that a try some time.
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I remember buying Guat surplus years ago for less than ten cents a round. It was all green a corroded but the guy was cleaning it in a tumbler. It shot great as i recall. When he ran out of it, he had some loose stuff left that was still all green and I bought it and shot it like that. 
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That's a good idea. I've shot some Federal Gold Metal Match, which is very popular with snipers, and compared it to my handloads. It wasn't as accurate as my handloads, but it would be very unusual for commercial ammo to match handloads. I'll see what I can do.
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Thanks. |
For 10 cents a round, I could put up with a little corrosion, as long as it fires. I bought a case of Guat stuff, and it looks like new commercial production. But I didn't pay 10 cents a round. But it sure shoots good.
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Cool, thanks 
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I've shot 1.5" from 175 yrds with FGMM in my 700 Sendra and basically one hole groups at 100 yds look like a three leaf clover. |
So it gums up your rifle and posts groups 3x that of other ammo. Gotta get me some. 
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I have shot a few different "Quality" .308 loads, and they all shoot "good". But none were as accurate as my handloads. I'll get with brianksain and get a collection of what are considered "the best" of sniper rounds, and see what we get. |
Now you've done it. |
Yep, you get what you pay for, I guess. I, and a lot of other folks, buy Wolf because it is (or maybe I ought to say 'was') cheap. I never thought that it was super accurate. Tman and I say that it shoots "minute of coke bottle" at 50 yards. We just like to bounce things around on the 50 yard dirt bank. It's plenty good enough for that. But if you want accuracy, it ain't what you want. Funny story.....a guy that worked with us told Tman one day, "I can shoot groups with Wolf as good as any you can shoot with handloads. Tman challenged him to a shoot-off at the range after work. When we drove up, our friend had already been there and shot a few groups for record, and he ran toward the car, waving his hands, and hollering, "The shoot is off! No contest!" When you actually shoot paper, count all the holes, and measure the groups........you are not proud of the "patterns". 
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| I have actually gotten pretty decent results with the Wolf I've tried, and that's been in a variety of rifles. I think all the groups have averaged less than 2.5-3" from my target AR and Savage 10FP. I'll dig up the pics and post them when I get a chance. Matter of fact, some of the lowest SD's I have ever recorded out of factory ammo was with Wolf polymer! |
All I can say is, I sure hate that you're all the way in Georgia. We'd sure like to see you shoot some of those groups.
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I agree. Wolfe has it's useful purpose. If all you're gonna be doing is firing at plastic bottles on a bank, bump firing or FA fire, why pay extra? |
I have access to M118LR, M852, XM 80. LEmme see if I can get some your way. Someone else is ognna have to get teh commercial stuff. |
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good job! and shameless plug for my recent Garand vs. Mosin o' truth that I thought you might be interested in |