There's a discussion going on over in the AK section of the forum that's got some VERY interesting discussion about Iraq.  The thread originally started out on what kind of AK Zarqawi carries, but branched off into a different direction when Rayman1 provided some input (he's currently serving in Iraq) as to what's going on over there.

The orignal thread can be found here.

I've copied and pasted Rayman1's post in sequential order below.  It's long, but very much so worth the reading:

Quoted: Just reading some of the posts on the Zarqawi stuff.  I'm currently working in Baghdad doing intel/security work and my daily grind is dealing with these things.  Zarqawi is a Sunni from Jordan and his kind are very much the minority here.  His group is attributed to several beheadings, execution killings, bombings, etc. but nothing of major note in comparison to what the Shiite-dominated security forces we put in place here are doing to the people and us.   He more than likely got his AKS-74U from his Chechen merc buddies who came here as snipers.  And yes, there are a lot of US weapons out here to include M4's, M16A2's, SAW's, and 240B's.  Getting ammo for them is a problem, though.  But they pump out videos in the marketplaces showing attacks on convoys, etc. and grabbing up our guys' guns and equipment.  Most of those scenes are 2003-2004 dated.  However, they do have a lot of our stuff. Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.  We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied.  They follow a guy much worse than Zarqawi called Muqtada Al-Sadr.  He runs the Jaysh Al-Mahdi or "Mahdi Army" which fought us in 2004 in Najaf until a peace arrangement was brokered with them.  And his buddy, a guy named Al-Hakim (who incidently is the Vice Presidnet of Iraq) runs the Bader Corps - Iraqi military dissidents that fled to Iran with their tanks, etc. for 15 years and received training/equipment from Iran.  Hakim is not even Iraqi -he's an Iranian citizen.  Bader Corps and the Mahdi Army run all the security forces in Iraq.  Iranian intelligence agents make up a part of the Iraqi Ministry of Interior which controls the security forces and it's controlled by Iran now.  The "insurgents" we've come to hear about on the news and from the briefings by the military are mostly Sunnis fighting the Iranian-directed Iraqi forces because they are angry that they see us helping them.  By day we train those guys and at night they go do the executions and round-ups of the Sunnis throughout Baghdad on unauthorized raids.  But when they round up 20 guys without any reason, they simply tell us they are "insurgents" and we buy it.  And, of course, they use the mosques or husseiniyahs (Shiite mosques) to plan and coordinate their attacks on the Sunnis as they know we can't touch them in there.  A couple months ago on the news when they talked about the raid that was conducted on the prayer room here, the Shiites called it a mosque and the entire Baghdad City Council broke off all relations with the US military.  However, a tortured Sunni man was found and rescued in it, along with tons of weapons and Al-Sadr propaganda.  The Ministry of Interior stayed neutral and quiet but was upset.  But that is almost all Shiite mosques here.         Zarqawi has directed all Sunnis to fight the Iranian-backed Iraqi government as they are Shiite and hate each other.  So, every Muslim merc throughout the area has either come here or is still here fighting us and the Iraqi security forces.  And the Iraqi security/military forces put the IED's out on the street and make us believe they're put their by something called "insurgents."  We've seen the Iraqi Police place them, we've seen the Iraqi Police fire at Sunni mosques.  Neither side is good but Al-Sadr hates us and needs only to be told by Iran to turn on us overtly.  We've already had run-ins with the Mahdi Army and Bader Corps agents but were told to let them go as they are with the government.  So lots of the people here believe we support the Shiite's side because we (Us military) roll with them knowing every Shiite mosque is a torture facility and jail for Sunnis that the Iraqi Police use.   Sorry to write so much but just wanted to get guys reading this to understand partly about the civil war that is truly going on here.  The Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah from Lebanon send guys here for a 3-month training program.  Chechen, Kuwaiti, Jordanian, Syrian, Afghan, and other mercs come here to help both sides.  The Iranians send the Bader Corps and Mahdi Army weapons and Iranian advisors which are openly received by Iraqi government representatives to be transported to Baghdad's Sadr City for distribution to police/military units.  All of which we know goes on every day, none of which the US military here will touch because of politics.  Frustrating.  But off-topic now and my apologies.

A couple people posted that they appreciated his input:

Quoted: Thanks for the kind words on the post - I just didn't want to turn the original poster's post into a political session as it started to go a bit off-topic. But if anyone is interested in the real Iraq situation here from someone on the ground, on the street, and dealing with real Iraqis (good and bad), along with the military, I can tell you what I know from my dealings here. Just give you a quick couple of examples of how not to rely on the news for opinions on Iraq: A. Reporters posted in Iraq (Baghdad) live in the International Zone (IZ), formerly known as the Green Zone. The IZ is practically another country as it is big and is a completely different world from regular Iraq as it is heavily guarded and protected. It is far removed from the outside. Reporters do not venture out of the IZ or the nearby red zones due to the danger but they do have their local Iraqi interpreters and assistants take a camera/mic out to do interviews, etc. They get footage and bring it back into the IZ where the reporter's crew does the editing and stuff. What they obtain is largely dependent upon whether their Iraqi assistants choose to give them real info or just what they want to give. NO Iraqi is going to report on the Mahdi Army or Bader Corps unless they want to be shot later. Sunnis won't do it because they will be killed. Shiites won't do it because most don't think there's anything wrong with those to organizations as they protect Shiites. Take the news with a grain of salt but know there are no reporters out there onthe ground covering anything here. Whenever you see the journalist reproting live from Baghdad on the news, the background behind him is the IZ. B. Lots of "spinning" info here. The Iraqi Police Commandos which many units are assigned or attached to do things by themselves without authorization. They are visited during the day by us, then we leave before evening. They do they're bad guy stuff later. Let's say during the night, they roll-up to a neighborhood and abduct 20 Sunnis, take some jewelry and money, and rough-up some women. From those 20, maybe 10 will be taken with them back to their compound. The other 10 wil be taken to a mosque, tortured, killed, and dumped in the neighborhood. We arrive and find 5 Sunnis in the Commando's official custody, beaten, of course, and perhaps the other 5 are accidently discovered by us in another building on the compound. An argument begins with the Iraqi commander there about how he's doing bad stuff and he says they were "insurgents" and not to meddle in their business. As we don't want to offend, we finally give in but scold him lightly about not doing that again. The US military commander then takes that info, does a report saying the Iraqi Commandos conducted 4 successful raids and apprehended 10 "insurgents." His higher-ups are happy and the General says the Iraqi security forces are doing great work catching terrorists and start giving them more independence and financial help (morny for new police trucks, equipment, etc.). A Kenmore wash machine could not have spun that better. And sadly, the US military cannot stop what they do here because it is not the mission. The mission is to train and equipment the Iraqi security forces, pretty much all bad guys, so they may take cotrol of the country themselves. Probably Iran's master plan for years - we always joke how they must laugh every day in Teheran.

Then a few posters asked him to post some more info:

Quoted: Im glad folks enjoyed the posts. I personally don't care about the politics of the situation, either. But when it's in your face all day and night, and the politicians (both government and in the military ranks) have your hands tied about really cleaning this place up from the Iranian-backed militias that we've allowed to sprout up to control officially control the country, it gets frustrating. When our forces roll out on patrol and find a possible IED along the roadway between two Iraqi Police or Mahid Army (almost the same thing) checkpoints 500 meters from each checkpoint and the IED is triggered when EOD guys arrive to go over and neutralize it amost killing several troops, then it becomes my problem. Especially when there is not a single Iraqi policeman in the area until it detonates, then they are on the scene in a minute because they knew it was there. Iran had them plant it earlier. And then we roll with them that night to train them on how to do their jobs. To quote one military officer who trains the Iraqi Police Commandos, "We're just training them to become more efficient killers when they go out with their Iranian advisors when we leave them in the evenings." Wish I could tell some other stories that would completely shock you as to the policies and ROE (rules of engagement) that have been set forth by the commanders here. Basically what it boils down to is we are still rolling around here on requirements and mission focus with commanders in the 2004 mindset (the people doing these attacks on us are ex-Baath Party members, Saddam loyalists, and "insurgents"). We really need permission to hit ALL the Shiite mosques or "husseiniyahs," go into the all-Shiite Iraqi Ministry of Interior (MOI) and get rid of all the Iranian agents, and disarm all the Iraqi security forces to re-build them again the right way - with the same amount of Kurds, Sunnis, Christians, and Shiites. We unfortunately let the government, military, and security forces be created with only Shiites. And since we're gradually giving them more independence, we can't cannot tell them what to do anymore. So we must accept the fact the new Iranian-controlled Iraqi government is doing an ethnic cleansing program here and we are indirectly stuck within it.

Posters asked about the politics behind the higher-ups in the military leadership:

Quoted: To answer the question whether or not the higher-ups know what's going on here is a foggy mess itself. As everyone knows, the higher the rank, the more politics get involved. Probably more than half of the GI's know what the deal is here and most of the military training/assistance teams know. The supreme higher-ups in the rear know but are reluctant to clog up the system with bad news about the guys they are training. As you know, the focus is to get out of Iraq by training the Iraqis to take over the country themselves. So any info about Iran's meddling here is just stuff that would keep us from leaving. So, there is a general "Don't tell me because I don't want to know about that" mindset. Plus, I'd imagine it's rather embarrasing at the mid-level (Lieutenant Colonel) to senior-level (General) to say these things to the highers in the States. Basically, the powers that be are either aware or becoming aware, thanks to some good media reporting that can't be supressed as easily as within the military/government channels. So it's out there. It's also generally known that no one wants to go into Iran to duke it out with them as support back home will be minimal. The real problem is that the intelligence collection system here is absolutely broken. For example: You get detailed info on a building near an Iraqi Police station used as a torture/execution facility by the Iraqi Police and Iranian advisors. You give it to the military unit that is responsible for that AO and visits/jointly works with that Iraqi Police Station daily. The commander of that unit does not want that info as it is not his mission. His mission is only to help the Iraqi Police. And even if he acts on the info, there's nothing he can do about it if the Iraqi Police say it's their building under their jurisdiction. Case closed. Remember, we've given them more authority and independence because we are not occupiers anymore - we're advisors and guests. Even Iraanians that have been rolled up are let go once they are brought into Iraqi Police custody. So what's the point. Another example: You have an Iraqi guy who has established a good relationship with an Iraqi Police Captain at an Iraqi Police Station. And he's a Shiite. But he's tired of how the Iranian-backed Bader Corps militia and their Iranian advisors come into the station and task-out his policemen and equipment to do some killings of some Sunnis in the neighborhood, and how they make his police patrols run intereference to ensure no US patrols enter the area while Bader Corps guys do their stuff. So he starts giving info about who the bad guys are, when they come, and what they do, along with other info, too. But the military unit that Iraqi guy works as an interpreter for does not want him talking with the Iraqi Police Captain anymore because intel collection is not what they want him to do. Just translate for the unit about how many patrols the station conducted in the neighborhood. Naturally, all that info stops coming in about the killings that eventually that same military unit will want to know more info on. The Iraqi Poice Captain feels duped and wonders why we permit the militias to do their thing. The military doesn't know how intel works or how to use it until it's too late here. Now you see how the folks in the neighborhoods begin to not trust us and have little faith in us because it looks as though we're helping the bad guys. Enter the random sniping, IED, or mortar attack. And then the police label them as "insurgents" and we go after them. Totally works in the favor of the bad guys. I hope that can explain more about why we continue to get attacked here. It's not some bad-ass, die-hard "insurgents"and ex-Baath Party guys that want Saddam back, it's relatives of the folks we're trying to help that are getting angry at us and the Iranian-backed government here. Those relatives might be ex-military or have access to some heavy stuff. The Sunnis here don't usually attack us because they want us to know it's the police doing it. But they don't see us helping them so they attack the police. Then the police say "insurgents" attack them and always try to draw us into the gun battle by not doing anything until we help put down fire for them. And when those guys do finally fire on us, the police do a "See, I told you they're insurgents - they're shooting at you, too" thing. Hope that makes sense about why we're still here.

A few comments from others about what a clusterfuck it is over there and this was posted:

Quoted: It's certainly a mess now to say the least. You'd be suprised at the number of people that remark about wishing Saddam was back to clean the mess up. They also say it would only take him two weeks to straighten out. But I must admit, he did have some things right. In Al-Amarah along the Iraq-Iran border, Iranians have been pouring in every day unchecked. They use the swamps and rivers in the area to smuggle people and weapons in from Iran. It's no coincidence that Bader Corps has their headquarters there and routinely meet Iranian agents on the Iraqi side and transport them up to Baghdad using Iraqi Ministry of Interior trucks and government personnel. They are later assigned to Iraqi military/police compounds throughout Baghdad and the rest of the country, and tucked away where we never see them. I've even met one on a police commando compound who was ballsy enough to show me his Iranian identification card and passport. He wore the same khaki BDU's as the rest of the Iraqis. Some of us joked later about how he must be deployed, too. What can you do when they are given Iraqi citizenship and passports by the Iraqi government? Since the government is running itself and we cannot interfere in their affairs, how can you stop that? Saddam had an easy fix for that - he just drained all the swamps and rivers there and shot anyone that tried to come across the border. The smuggling stopped. The tide of Irainian/Shiite influence has already poured over in a wave and there's not a whole lot that can be done now. Put simply, they run the country and are doing their ethnic cleansing thing backed by the government. Zarqawi is a nut bag and he's also a Sunni from Jordan. All of his al-Qaida boys in Iraq are Sunni and they have the ear of both the Sunnis and the desert people that are in remote places here. So he has the backing of the Mujahadeen guys that are violent, unrelenting fighters. They aren't interesting in running Iraq but to just get rid of us and the Iranian shiite-backed Iraqi government. He hates the Shiite running Iraqi killing his Sunni brothers as much as he hates us, and they've been duking it out in random fights. The al-Qaida guys have the luxury of getting more personnel from all over the place who have some training - Chechniya (enter Zarqawi's AKS-74U), Syria, Jordan, etc. And they get the more sophisticated weapons that are brought out of those places, in addition to arms from Iraq's neighbor, Syria. The Iranian-backed Bader Corps and Mahdi Army militias that run Iraq's government get weapons from Iran and are with the Shiite crowd. Al-Qaidi does the more daring, spectacular attacks and uses suicide bombers to conduct them. Give it time and the two will pound at each other but since we roll on the Iraqi government's side, we will always be getting involved in this crap as the two sides hammer at each other.

Quoted: This will give you a kind of idea of what it's like here now - if you look on the news about the British helicopter that went down yesterday in Basra, that incident speaks for itself. Basra, an almost entirely Shiite city, had folks celebrating in the streets and at the wreckage site. The British actually got into some firefights with the Mahdi Army militia that, again, we permit to roll around unchecked. The citizens of Basra shouted praises to Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shiite personality that dominates Iraq right now. He is the leader of the Mahdi Army, among other things, and is routinely visiting Syria, Iran, and Jordan on "diplomatic" trips - and he's not even a diplomat. Again, we allow this. He has professed to destroying all US forces in Iraq and persuades the Shiites he controls to do this. Again, we do nothing to stop him because we are afraid that by rolling him up, we will set the country into civil war. It already is. The helicopter incident yesterday is one of many incidents that are completely unfathomable that we permit to exist in terms of the allowance of these Iranian-supported militias to not only exist, but to let them do their own patrols in and around ours. I'm really not familiar with the construction of any large base here but I do know that a LOT of time and money is being dumped here for installations that will be turned over to the Iraqis. One base up north was cleaned-up, fixed-up, and returned to an Iraqi military unit. It was turned into a big event with speeches by the US commander, etc. At the end of that day, it was ransacked. Iraqi military personnel literally went wild taking furniture, equipment, and even floor tiles out of buildings. But that never made any news - too embarrassing, I'm guessing. And we're currently running very expensive fiber optic cables on many of these FOB's (Forward Operating Baes) that will ultimately be turned over. LOTS of money dumped over here. But that's an entirely different subject. This heavy Iranian influence is just becoming obvious and is much deeper than we'd all like to think. In 2-3 years, I'd guess this place will be no different than Teheran. Currently, in Sadr City (all Shiite) next to the Green Zone, if you open a beauty shop, CD/DVD shop with Western movies, or even a bakery (seriously) with a hint of Westernism, or even a faddish/Western haircut, you will be first warned and then later shot and your shop blown-up. Really. We had a deal not long ago where the Mahdi Army militia hanged 6 guys from the streetlights over something as trivial. It's widely accepted that we do not go in that area because of the "political" quagmire of getting into a shoot-out with the Mahdi Army or Badr Corps. So you can imagine how that kind of rationale the Iranian-supported Iraqi government will spread throughout Baghdad after 2-3 years with the government forces zapping all Sunnis here.

Quoted: Thank you all for the kind words. It's reached the point where people ought to know the real scoop and not what reporters based solely out of the Green Zone report, and what the military's PAO (Public Affairs Office) puts out. Just keep in mind - when you hear the words "insurgents," anti-Iraqi forces," and "Jihadists," it's garbage. It sucks when you have guys come to you and tell you that his neighbor's 4 sons where grabbed by the Mahdi Army, put against a wall near a mosque, and shot in front of everyone. Then their bodies burned in the street. And the guy asks what you can do about it. Especially when you know what time those guys meet, where they meet up, and what they do. Their practically untouchable as their is no requirement on dealing with them.

Quoted: My goal was to really try and make honest sense out of the garbage that is spoiuted on the news. The real deal. I wanted to explain why we are still here and why things have gotten 10 times worse instead of better - which never made sense to me in the past as we've been here for 3 years. We had this place locked up at the begininng of 2004. Then enter the militias. We fought with Sadr and his boys in Najaf, they brokered a peace deal, and we let them take part in the new security of Iraq. So we can't do anything about the Mahdi Army. Even though he hates us and has routinely advocated for the killing of every US soldier in Iraq. His Mahdi Army often puts out little DVD's in the markets showing their exploits at hitting us with IED's, ambushes, and snipers. But we allow him and his boys to openly run their gun trucks around. The Mahdi Army even has branch offices throughout Baghdad that we don't even close. They militiamen guard ALL the Shiite mosques in case we decide (never will happen) to roll in and find their weapons, courts, and torture facilities inside. The one of the most irritating things that bugs me and most of my colleagues here doing what I do is the lack of knowledge for the outside situation by those making the rules here for intel. Sad but true - we go off of intel requirements that were written in 2003-2004 and must report those things that satisify those requirements. If it doesn't meet those requirements, it can't get reported because it doesn't fit the square hole. So valuable, timely intel falls to the wayside because there isn't a slot for it. Everyday. Really. If it truly is earth-shattering, it can go up by there are specific channels and by the time it reaches those who need it on the ground but living 50 meters from me, they've already gone out and it's too late. As long as Colonels enjoy giving PowerPoint presentations with words like "insurgents," "anti-Iraqi forces," and "Jihadists," poor Joe and along with his commander and his unit, will never know what the real deal is. And they work here and go out with those very same dudes that do those bad things.

Quoted: You'll get no arguement from me about how Sadr should've been offed back in the day, along with Al-Hakim, the leader of the Iranian-backed Badr Coprs and the #2 guy in the Iraqi govenrment AND who is not even Iraqi - he's Iranian. And, of course, every freaking Iranian national in Baghdad, too. Send their remains back in the wooden weapons crates that carried the weapons they sent over here. Now, the US military won't go in the same city that Sadr's in, just to aviod any political problems. Remember the crap about a month or maybe two ago involving us going in a prayer room and cutting down some bad guys inside. That was just a prayer room that was nothing - but it had a HUGE amount of AK's RPG's,RPK's, etc. and tons of Sadr prpaganda. The Shiites made a big stink about it and the Baghdad Government Council automatically cut-off relations with the US military, the Shiites spun the incident completely out of control (yeah, the guys we're still over here to protect), and the Iraqi government strategically stayed quiet. An Iraqi dentist that was kidnapped, tortured, and held hostage was in that "prayer room" awaiting his death by the Mahdi Army inside. If that's the kind of crap that goes on in Shiite "prayer rooms," imagine what transpires in the confines of a heavily defended Shiite mosque. We know where they are and what they do in them but cannot touch them. Regarding the prayer room story, we later caved in yet again to the Shiites here and held back revealing a lot more that was going on inside that "prayer room" so they wouldn't get embarrassed and it wouldn't look as though we were slamming their religion. That's pretty self-defeating and sad. But sadder yet is the fact that Sadr's Mahdi Army is getting stronger (more weapons from Iran), bigger (if you don't support them, you're against them), and more openly powerful (they know we can't touch them and often flaunt that fact in front of us on the streets). But since they are not on the bad guy list AND they seem to abide by the law by often calling themselves a neighborhood watch program when in our presence, they TECHNICALLY haven't broken any rules. And when these knuckleheads gather up with their trucks and load-up their weapons, we seem to even find a technicality to excuse that conveniently prevening a US commander on the ground from causing a political incident with the Iraqi government, the Mahdi Army, Iran, and the Shiites in general by "accidently" getting in a gun battle with them. Joe's got a lot to deal with all around him when he goes out over here that he doesn't know about.

We should've gotten rid of al-Sadr and the Mehdi Army. If Saddam and his military couldn't stop us, those punks sure as heck can't.

Wow.

Quoted: Wow.

You aint kiddin'

Ehh...

The IZ isnt that big.  Its something like 4mi. square?  All kinds of cool stuff there though....
The infamous Cross Sabres, Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the Al Rasheed Hotel, etc....

Amazing stuff.  Thanks to you for bringing this to our attention, and thanks to Rayman1 for what he does and for posting it in the first place.

Very interesting information.  I feel that I should say that all the ISF and some others I worked with were great and professional.  They were a huge asset to us whenever we could get them for patrols.

well, what happens when we bitch slap iran?  these fucking people are a lost cause.  they're so wrapped up in their bullshit religious beliefs that they don't realize that maybe, just maybe, the other side is comprised of PEOPLE too, and not the devil

Quoted: Quoted: Wow. You aint kiddin'

Great job, tRenzer.  

I had the exact same idea, but I don't know how to move sections of a thread like that (or make a link).

I would encourage everyone to see our discussions in full at the original thread starting on page 2, if possible.  There is some additional info to be found there as well.  Rayman1 is explaining something to us that we all need to hear.  It appears as though our friends and relatives may unwillingly be fighting for Iran's future in Iraq, and apparently that is no paranoid exaggeration.  If this is not correct, someone please chime in and help us understand where we may be wrong.

Does anyone out there know how we can shed some light on this, and back what we say without throwing Rayman1 under the bus?  Is there any effective way whatsoever to do something from home?  I know it may be impossible, but if not then...

this is making me sick

Wow x 2

I had no idea it was that bad over there. I need to check the whole thread out.

Thanks for the cross-post.

THe most messed up thing about it is that is true. Much the same way when we supported Iraq back in the 80s during the Iraq-Iran War; same way with the Muhjahadeen in A-Stan back on the 80s, when we supplied thwem with Stingers to fight the Soviets, only for them to attack us later.

Is a sickening spiral of lies and deception that makes you wonder why our guys are fighting and dying in a war where the enemy seems to be the people we are trying to liberate. It saddens me and angers me to hear this happening and our govt. doesn't do anything about it; to let it continue just to save face.

I've served in the military for 13 years and it hurts me to read this. To know that men like my friend Bobby (KIA 8-1-04, Mosul) died for nothing.

Why?

We should assasinate Mookie al-Sadr when we invade Iran.

tag

HH

Fuckin' Hell.

Once again the politics are fucking over our mission.

Have we learned NOTHING from Viet Nam?

I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."  

Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries.

This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves.

Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings".





Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.          

... Not an encouraging report for sure. Makes you wonder what the end-game will look like.

... Just hoping our military leadership are allowed to finish off the war in Iraqi so we can focus on Iran in the next decade.

Quoted: well, what happens when we bitch slap iran?

That'll never happen because our senior political leadership lacks a fucking pair of balls.

Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.

This is simply not true.
All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander.
The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar.
In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.

We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied.

That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide.
Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units.
The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations.
Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF.
The Marines also have no "independent Battalions".

If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs.
WE lived with the Iraqis.
If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did.

tag

And don't forget the Kurds. I stayed near a town called Khanaquin, by the Iranian border and travelled a little through the north, FOB Warrior, etc, and the Kurds keep their areas locked down pretty tight.

Quoted: We should assasinate Mookie al-Sadr when we invade Iran.

Since we aren't going to invade Iran... doing so could be problematic. Airstrikes maybe... invasion... you better get the draft ready. Not going to happen.

It's amazing how wrong our military and political leaders were. Here we thought with the Ivasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, we would have Iran surrounded on two sides (3 really counting the Persian Gulf). That it would put the Mullahs under incredible pressure and have them shaking in their turbans. In reality... all we did was oust one of Iran's greatest enemies (Saddam), create a Shiite client state for Iran (Iraq) and weaken our on position in the middle east by bogging ourselves down and draining available man power with which to threaten Iran. we couldn't have shot ourselves in the foot better if we had planned it!

Quoted: I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."   Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries. This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves. Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings". Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.

What you're advocating is what we tried in Vietnam... collective punishment of the civilian population caught in the crossfire of the war. It did not work then... it will not work now. It won't drain the swamp of terrorists... it will only deepen it. Short of genocide... that tactic is a lost cause.

You need to do a little reading on counter-insurgency 101.

The original post mentioned:

Quoted: <snip Basically, the powers that be are either aware or becoming aware, thanks to some good media reporting that can't be supressed as easily as within the military/government channels. <snip>

Maybe the higher ups are waiting for it to be 'reported', and action being demanded.  It would put the media on the defensive and 'allow' the leadership to go on the offensive.

Headline: "IRAN MUST BE STOPPED"



Hears hoping it breaks sooner rather than later .

Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did.

Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... and supressing the Sunni Insurgency only helps to reinforce that puppet's hold on power, I can see Iran giving those orders.  

Thanks for the re-post tReznr
You're a good egg

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet...

Your premise is flawed.

It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders.
Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria).

I am going with Cincinatus, maybe becuase we were in the same general area.

Most everything from raymans post didnt fit with what I saw. Our Iraqi guys hated Iran, got blown up by IEDs all the time (the IEDs they were supposedly planting?), and were mixed sunni, shiite, and even a jew or 2.

Also reporters dont go outside the green zone? We twice had reporters attached to us for major operations in Al Anbar, way far away from green zone.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria).

It doesn't matter if they like Iran... they like us even less. Iran and the Iraqi govt.  are allies in the same cause... solidifying the Iraqi govt.'s control on power, and getting us out of Iraq. Those in the Iraqi govt. have deep ties going back to Iran for the last 20 years. They might tell you they don't like them... what they say behind your back in smoke filled rooms with their Iranian intelligence buddies is what really matters.

Quoted: Quoted: I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."   Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries. This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves. Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings". Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.           What you're advocating is what we tried in Vietnam... collective punishment of the civilian population caught in the crossfire of the war. It did not work then... it will not work now. It won't drain the swamp of terrorists... it will only deepen it. Short of genocide... that tactic is a lost cause. You need to do a little reading on counter-insurgency 101.

Perhaps YOU should do a little counter-insurgency reading.  I have. The Philippine Insurrection and the Malaya thing did not involve warm fuzzies and kumbayah's. Far from it. Downright nasty and brutal. But SUCCESSFUL!

Vietnam? Other than an incoherant strategy, lack of will was the issue as it seems to be now.

Genocide? If a given area turns against you, it must be eliminated. Period. Call it what you want. I have no qualms about it. If a free-for-all is ultimately what wins and saves as many of our guy's lives as possible then so be it. Genocide gives no option for the targeted---they're gonna be wiped out no matter what. Treating a population as hostile and as potential enemy until proven otherwise leaves the door open for cooperation ON OUR TERMS.    

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria). It doesn't matter if they like Iran... they like us even less. Iran and the Iraqi govt.  are allies in the same cause... solidifying the Iraqi govt.'s control on power, and getting us out of Iraq. Those in the Iraqi govt. have deep ties going back to Iran for the last 20 years. They might tell you they don't like them... what they say behind your back in smoke filled rooms with their Iranian intelligence buddies is what really matters.

Where do you get this fantasy?
Were you there?
Have you been to Iraq, and have you ever spoken with any of the Iraqi military, police, or government?
I have to assume the answer is no.

If you think "Iranian intelligence buddies" are waltzing about Anbar and into Firm Bases -you are high.


Where do you get this stuff?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."   Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries. This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves. Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings". Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.           What you're advocating is what we tried in Vietnam... collective punishment of the civilian population caught in the crossfire of the war. It did not work then... it will not work now. It won't drain the swamp of terrorists... it will only deepen it. Short of genocide... that tactic is a lost cause. You need to do a little reading on counter-insurgency 101. Perhaps YOU should do a little counter-insurgency reading.  I have. The Philippine Insurrection and the Malaya thing did not involve warm fuzzies and kumbayah's. Far from it. Downright nasty and brutal. But SUCCESSFUL! Vietnam? Other than an incoherant strategy, lack of will was the issue as it seems to be now. Genocide? If a given area turns against you, it must be eliminated. Period. Call it what you want. I have no qualms about it. If a free-for-all is ultimately what wins and saves as many of our guy's lives as possible then so be it. Genocide gives no option for the targeted---they're gonna be wiped out no matter what. Treating a population as hostile and as potential enemy until proven otherwise leaves the door open for cooperation ON OUR TERMS.

Great plan... once everyone is dead... we can just plant a USA flag and have a gas station in the middle of a giant sandbox as the 51st state. LOL.

Most interesting thread in a while.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria). It doesn't matter if they like Iran... they like us even less. Iran and the Iraqi govt.  are allies in the same cause... solidifying the Iraqi govt.'s control on power, and getting us out of Iraq. Those in the Iraqi govt. have deep ties going back to Iran for the last 20 years. They might tell you they don't like them... what they say behind your back in smoke filled rooms with their Iranian intelligence buddies is what really matters. Where do you get this fantasy? Were you there? Have you been to Iraq, and have you ever spoken with any of the Iraqi military, police, or government? I have to assume the answer is no. If you think "Iranian intelligence buddies" are waltzing about Anbar and into Firm Bases -you are high. Where do you get this stuff?

From people you probably wouldn't considered qualified. Just friends in the uber-left leaning state department.  

Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."   Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries. This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves. Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings". Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.           What you're advocating is what we tried in Vietnam... collective punishment of the civilian population caught in the crossfire of the war. It did not work then... it will not work now. It won't drain the swamp of terrorists... it will only deepen it. Short of genocide... that tactic is a lost cause. You need to do a little reading on counter-insurgency 101. Perhaps YOU should do a little counter-insurgency reading.  I have. The Philippine Insurrection and the Malaya thing did not involve warm fuzzies and kumbayah's. Far from it. Downright nasty and brutal. But SUCCESSFUL! Vietnam? Other than an incoherant strategy, lack of will was the issue as it seems to be now. Genocide? If a given area turns against you, it must be eliminated. Period. Call it what you want. I have no qualms about it. If a free-for-all is ultimately what wins and saves as many of our guy's lives as possible then so be it. Genocide gives no option for the targeted---they're gonna be wiped out no matter what. Treating a population as hostile and as potential enemy until proven otherwise leaves the door open for cooperation ON OUR TERMS.     Great plan... once everyone is dead... we can just plant a USA flag and have a gas station in the middle of a giant sandbox as the 51st state. LOL.

Quite frankly I don't give a shit if they're all dead or not. And we don't need a 51st state. I'm stating what should be obvious, and has been stated to me from guys who have been there (I haven't) about how we changed our ROE to play nicey-nicey. We see how successful that's been, huh?

You seem like the doom and gloom type. WE'RE LOSING. OH MY GOD! WE GOTTA LEAVE NOW! So exactly what is your plan?  

Bump. Unreal.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've had several guys who were in OIF-I tell me that during the invasion, if it moved it could be shot. When the major large unit combat was "over" the ROE changed drastically. Then the problems began. We had to be their "friends", and warm fuzzies for everyone. THAT SHIT HAS TO CHANGE!!! Political correctness will be our downfall both here at home as well as abroad. If we ran the "occupation" with much looser ROE we would inevitably be labeled as NAZI's or some other bullshit. Who fucking cares? When our guys are dying I don't give a shit what it takes or how other countries see it. We (and the other occupation powers) didn't play this shit in post-WWII Germany. If the things that took place then happened now---look out! The left and others would be wringing their hands in angst. But you know what? IT EVENTUALLY WORKED! The notion of "liberating" a population is all wrong. After WWII our take on it was "We kicked your ass as a nation, now it's gonna go our way. Want to resist? We'll crush you. When you come around to our way of seeing it, we'll slowly take the boot up off of your neck. Fuck up and back down it goes."   Obviously we are viewed as weak. That's our fault. A military deployed should maintain a war footing and mentality---NOT one of a friendly neighborhood cop. Any threats should be neutralized, and politics be damned. OUR GUYS COME FIRST!!! Mosques off-limits? Gimme a fucking break. War has no boundaries. This unbridled fear of doing anything to Iran is nonsense if done PROPERLY. Do it like we've done in Iraq and it's a self-imposed reality. If Iran's population (as Iraq's should be) is viewed as HOSTILE until proven otherwise, and the ROE reflect that, our guys will have a less difficult time of it. Notice I didn't say "easy" time of it, as war is never easy. But we CAN make it less difficult and sustain less casualties. We and PC are the only ones stopping ourselves. Let's face it folks: all this Mideast shit is smackdown for 9-11. Bush can talk about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" all he wants, but it's about payback on the Arab/Muslim world in general. And we aren't done yet either, nor should we be. Their pain must be great enough to make them at least hesistate before ever thinking of another 9-11. Iran has had one coming for about 27 years now. They're probably next. But it needs to be done right (I fear it won't). We don't have to have open warfare on civilians, although I use the term civilians loosely. But we DO need to recognize that the majority of those bastards over there in the sandbox region don't like us. However they must FEAR us. Notice I didn't say "respect" us. Respect is somewhat based in admiration. There is none of that so fear will work in lieu of respect. My friend is a retired SgtMaj from 5th SF Group and spent his days working the sandbox. He concurs (from experience) that the single-most thing that "they" understand is FORCE. Pure unadulterated force. So be it. If a population is hostile, and feeds/supports/hides the actual "enemy", then that population (or elements of it) is the enemy also and should be dealt with as such. To hell with what others think including our own Quisling 5th column here at home. Fuck 'em all. The maximum survival possible of our troops while accomplishing our payback is what matters most to me, not people's "feelings". Having said all of the above, I don't think we have the spine to do it. God bless all you troops who are doing an OUTSTANDING job while having your hands tied. You make us proud.           What you're advocating is what we tried in Vietnam... collective punishment of the civilian population caught in the crossfire of the war. It did not work then... it will not work now. It won't drain the swamp of terrorists... it will only deepen it. Short of genocide... that tactic is a lost cause. You need to do a little reading on counter-insurgency 101. Perhaps YOU should do a little counter-insurgency reading.  I have. The Philippine Insurrection and the Malaya thing did not involve warm fuzzies and kumbayah's. Far from it. Downright nasty and brutal. But SUCCESSFUL! Vietnam? Other than an incoherant strategy, lack of will was the issue as it seems to be now. Genocide? If a given area turns against you, it must be eliminated. Period. Call it what you want. I have no qualms about it. If a free-for-all is ultimately what wins and saves as many of our guy's lives as possible then so be it. Genocide gives no option for the targeted---they're gonna be wiped out no matter what. Treating a population as hostile and as potential enemy until proven otherwise leaves the door open for cooperation ON OUR TERMS.     Great plan... once everyone is dead... we can just plant a USA flag and have a gas station in the middle of a giant sandbox as the 51st state. LOL. Quite frankly I don't give a shit if they're all dead or not. And we don't need a 51st state. I'm stating what should be obvious, and has been stated to me from guys who have been there (I haven't) about how we changed our ROE to play nicey-nicey. We see how successful that's been, huh? You seem like the doom and gloom type. WE'RE LOSING. OH MY GOD! WE GOTTA LEAVE NOW! So exactly what is your plan?

It's already a civil war. Pull out... let them duke it out. Crown the winner once on emerges... which will be the Shiites backed by Iran. Those are the people we are supporting now anyway according to Rayman1 and all accounts I hear.

Let the Iraqi govt. and their shiite milita friends take the gloves off... and fight for their own damn country... and leave us out of it. We can then play nice with the winner. Similar to your plan... but it doesn't involve our troops fighting and dying.

It's what's going to eventually happen anyway... its just happening right now in slow motion and costing us American lives. Fuck it... let them kill each other. They are killing each other right now. What good is it doing us being there??? The shiites could end it tomorrow if we would just leave and let them and their militias clean house.

Once the dominate milita wins, they can then have some unless international organization try to negoiate a political sentiment under whereby they swear not to futher the minority groups a

Quoted: Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you....

Can I take it at face value when the Iraqi with the RPK next to me shoots up a bad guy, then later is himself killed? Can I take it at face value when they run over a mine and get blown up? Can I take it at face value when they find a bad guy and beat the shit out of him because they dont like insurgents messing up thier town? Can I take it at face value when an Iraqi shows me pictures of his kids and says he wants to protect them from the bad guys and thanks George Bush?

Your right, they hate us.[>:/ All the Iraqis I did missions withs were great. I did not sense any hate, they thought some of the things we did were funny, we thought the things they did were funny, but no hate.

I have nothing but good things to say about the Iraqi military, well except that they eat WAY too much!!! They stole all our MREs!

dunno... didna read the first posting in great detail, browsed it i guess. first impression is it doesnt pass the smell test. relentlessly drives towards a complete failure of everything and everybody in iraq. while i have a lot of reservations about what goes on over there. this post finds nothing but failure, hate and worthlessness in iraq where every living creature is at each others throat and ours, the reporters never leave never-land and iran controls everything sorta...

just seems to pessimistic to be true. in everything are are exceptions. things can be really bad and there are a few good folks (iraqis) to be found here and there. in this post none. nada.. zilich..

just too bad to be true...

Quoted: Quoted: Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you.... Can I take it at face value when the Iraqi with the RPK next to me shoots up a bad guy, then later is himself killed? Can I take it at face value when they run over a mine and get blown up? Can I take it at face value when they find a bad guy and beat the shit out of him because they dont like insurgents messing up thier town? Can I take it at face value when an Iraqi shows me pictures of his kids and says he wants to protect them from the bad guys and thanks George Bush? Your right, they hate us.[>:/ All the Iraqis I did missions withs were great. I did not sense any hate, they thought some of the things we did were funny, we thought the things they did were funny, but no hate. I have nothing but good things to say about the Iraqi military, well except that they eat WAY too much!!! They stole all our MREs!

Nice personal story... and I'm sure many friendships were made with the men you served with. However, I am talking about politics and political maneuvering. What the Iraqi soldier does and thinks is totally different than what the Iraqi politician says and thinks.

The Iraqi leaders know that one day we will leave... but that Iran will always be their neighbor. They are making back room deals and coming to mutual understandings. Hell... Iranian diplomats regularly meet with Al-Sistani... no american has ever met with him. Coincidence? I don't think so. We infidels think that because our interests are currently aligned with the Iraqi Shiites right now... that they are our friends. But in this world, and in politics, interests are not only seen in the short term. They must plan for the future as well... hence, their Shiite neighbor and patron.... Iran.

More two cents.

The perspectives of two different people from Baghdad and Ramadi can be pretty far off the mark and not necessarily contradictory.  Shiites are more active in Baghdad than Al Anbar.


From Globalsecurity.org:

In the Iran Iraq war estimates of the Iraqi dead range from 160,000 to 240,000. Iraq suffered an estimated 375,000 casualties, the equivalent of 5.6 million for a population the size of the United States.

CIA factbook syas the population of Iraq is 26,783,383
-------
Is Sadr pro-Iran?  Yeah, I'd say so-highly likely.  Are all the Shia in Iraq pro Iran?  That's like saying all the French were pro German in 1919 because they are Christian.  Way more complicated then that.  Way too much bad blood.  If you are a Shia and your son was killed or wounded by the Iranians 20 years ago, are you going to give your country up to Tehran?  

One in 71 Iraqis took a bullet from the Iranians.  Crank that down to military age males, and I'd say one in 25.

I'd bet a large chunk of change that there are Shia death squads that are pro Iran and they are in pretty good numbers but not to the degree Rayman1 says.  PRobably just anti Saddam payback., you ask me.  Pretty influential in Baghdad, maybe.  

Bet  the house that if the US starts the withdrawal game the Sunni leaders will beg us to stay.  And Iran is moving too fast and will play out long before the last GI leaves anyway, so if Sadr wants to step up we may get a second crack at him. Shoulda finished him in April of 04.

My .02$ YMMV

Quoted: tag for later

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria). It doesn't matter if they like Iran... they like us even less. Iran and the Iraqi govt.  are allies in the same cause... solidifying the Iraqi govt.'s control on power, and getting us out of Iraq. Those in the Iraqi govt. have deep ties going back to Iran for the last 20 years. They might tell you they don't like them... what they say behind your back in smoke filled rooms with their Iranian intelligence buddies is what really matters. Where do you get this fantasy? Were you there? Have you been to Iraq, and have you ever spoken with any of the Iraqi military, police, or government? I have to assume the answer is no. If you think "Iranian intelligence buddies" are waltzing about Anbar and into Firm Bases -you are high. Where do you get this stuff? From people you probably wouldn't considered qualified. Just friends in the uber-left leaning state department.

I'm going to have to call bullshit here.
I have enough "friends" in that community, and DoD and Intel.
What you are saying doesn't square with anything I've heard from them, and from what I have personally witnessed in Iraq.

Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you....

It has nothing to do with what they "tell" me.
I lived with them. I operated with them. I faought with them.
None of what you say about "Iranian Intelligence" agents or the IA taking orders from them jibes with reality.
No one in the State Department would ever say those things.
If they did, it would be because they were talking out their ass.

Quoted: Quoted: From people you probably wouldn't considered qualified. Just friends in the uber-left leaning state department.   Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you.... Basically you heard it from a guy... Well, Cincinnatus IS the guy. Your "uber-left leaning state department" friends rode around in the backs of our armored Suburbans and got honey poured in their ears by imams and sheiks while Cincinnatus and his guys were training and going on hits with Iraqis. Who do you think has the better perspective on events? He wasn't told things, he saw and did things when he and his guys were kicking down doors and killing or PUC'ing bad guys. And "uber-left leaning state department" may have been an attempt at sarcasm in your eyes, but in the eyes of those of us who spent everyday for a while with FSOs over there, it's all too correct an assessment.

The guys on the ground do the fighting and dying... that is for sure. But its the politicians that will decide the future of Iraq... and who their allies are. No amount of kicking down doors will give you the perspective and incite of knowing what Iraqi politicians are truly thinking. Somehow, I think my state dept. friends, who actually meet with and converse with the Iraqi politicians daily, would have more incite into their view. Your opinion may differ.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you.... Can I take it at face value when the Iraqi with the RPK next to me shoots up a bad guy, then later is himself killed? Can I take it at face value when they run over a mine and get blown up? Can I take it at face value when they find a bad guy and beat the shit out of him because they dont like insurgents messing up thier town? Can I take it at face value when an Iraqi shows me pictures of his kids and says he wants to protect them from the bad guys and thanks George Bush? Your right, they hate us.[>:/ All the Iraqis I did missions withs were great. I did not sense any hate, they thought some of the things we did were funny, we thought the things they did were funny, but no hate. I have nothing but good things to say about the Iraqi military, well except that they eat WAY too much!!! They stole all our MREs! Nice personal story... and I'm sure many friendship were made with the men you served with. However, I am talking about politics and political maneuvering.

No you're not.
You're talking out of your ass about stuff that you know nothing about, to people who were ther, and have direct knowledge of the situation.

What the Iraqi soldier does and thinks is totally different than what the Iraqi politician says and thinks. The Iraqi leaders know that one day we will leave... but that Iran will always be their neighbor. They are making back room deals and coming mutual understanding. Hell... Iranian diplomats regularly meet with Al-Sistani... no american has ever met with him.

That's not true, too. Sistani has met with Americans.

Coincidence? I don't think so. We infidels think that because our interests are currently aligned with the Iraqi Shiites right now... that they are our friends. But in this world, and in politics, interests are not only seen in the short term. They must plan for the future as well... hence, there Shiite neighbor and patron.... Iran.

Bullshit.
You are assuming stuff that is not true.

Most Iraqi Shia do NOT like or trust Iran.
Those are the facts.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right now, the Iraqi security forces like the Iraqi Army, Public Order Brigades, SF, Commandos, and Police are almost entirely Shiite which take all their orders from Iran.   This is simply not true. All of the Iraqi Army units work directly for the US military. They ALL have advisors. Every mission comes directly from a US commander. The Police are NOT all Shia.  They might be in Shia areas, but not in Anbar. In Anbar they are ALL Sunni. Many of whom are working with the Insurgency.We are just a nuisance that pops into their compounds to check on them every so often and they are very good about doing the little dog-and-pony show for us to make us go away when we are satisfied. That is absolutely not the case in Anbar. EVERY ADVISOR LIVES WITH HIS UNIT. This is theater wide. Marine and Army Advisors ultimately work for II MEF, as do their Iraqi Units. The Iraqi Units conduct NO large scale independent operations. Not because they are not able, or are not trusted. They work WITH II MEF they are OPCON ansd TECON to II MEF. The Marines also have no "independent Battalions". If those units that he speaks of operate on their own, without advisors, it's because the local area commanders that just "pop into their compounds to check on them every so often" are not doing their jobs. WE lived with the Iraqis. If they were taking orders from Iran, then Iran's orders must be to cooperate with the Marines, fight hard and stamp out the Sunni Insurgency in Fallujah -because that is what they did. Since the Iraqi Shiite led govt. is an Iranian puppet... Your premise is flawed. It is based on the FALSE assumption that Iraqi Shiites like Iran, and would follow Iranian orders. Many of our Iraqi Shia Soldiers expressed a desire to fight Iran (and Syria). It doesn't matter if they like Iran... they like us even less. Iran and the Iraqi govt.  are allies in the same cause... solidifying the Iraqi govt.'s control on power, and getting us out of Iraq. Those in the Iraqi govt. have deep ties going back to Iran for the last 20 years. They might tell you they don't like them... what they say behind your back in smoke filled rooms with their Iranian intelligence buddies is what really matters. Where do you get this fantasy? Were you there? Have you been to Iraq, and have you ever spoken with any of the Iraqi military, police, or government? I have to assume the answer is no. If you think "Iranian intelligence buddies" are waltzing about Anbar and into Firm Bases -you are high. Where do you get this stuff? From people you probably wouldn't considered qualified. Just friends in the uber-left leaning state department.   I'm going to have to call bullshit here. I have enough "friends" in that community, and DoD and Intel. What you are saying doesn't square with anything I've heard from them, and from what I have personally witnessed in Iraq. Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you.... It has nothing to do with what they "tell" me. I lived with them. I operated with them. I faought with them. None of what you say about "Iranian Intelligence" agents or the IA taking orders from them jibes with reality. No one in the State Department would ever say those things. If they did, it would be because they were talking out their ass.

You are talking about living and operating with Iraqi military units. They are not the ones making political decisions. They take orders which are relayed to them from their political leadership. How the hell would they know what the reasons behind those orders are.

What you saw and heard from these soldiers makes little difference. You can chose to believe in your little rosy colored fantasy... maybe it helps you with your mission and staying alive. I can't fault you for that.

We'll just have to wait and see who's actually right. Time will tell us all. However, we do not have a very good track record with post conflict environments turning out as we planned or hoped.... something to keep in mind.

Definitely.
You are full of shit.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: From people you probably wouldn't considered qualified. Just friends in the uber-left leaning state department.   Secondly, again you think because someone in the Iraqi military, govt., police tells you something, you can take it at face value. They have an agenda... and telling you what they really think... you think that is part of it??? If you take what these people are telling you as gospel... I have some beach front property to sell you.... Basically you heard it from a guy... Well, Cincinnatus IS the guy. Your "uber-left leaning state department" friends rode around in the backs of our armored Suburbans and got honey poured in their ears by imams and sheiks while Cincinnatus and his guys were training and going on hits with Iraqis. Who do you think has the better perspective on events? He wasn't told things, he saw and did things when he and his guys were kicking down doors and killing or PUC'ing bad guys. And "uber-left leaning state department" may have been an attempt at sarcasm in your eyes, but in the eyes of those of us who spent everyday for a while with FSOs over there, it's all too correct an assessment. The guys on the ground do the fighting and dying... that is for sure. But its the politicians that will decide the future of Iraq... and who their allies are. No amount of kicking down doors...

20 years. Field Grade. Infantry and Intelligence. I am not myopic in terms of the political situation in Iraq.

I might kick in doors now and then, but only because it brings me so much joy.
It's a hobby.

will give you the perspective and incite of knowing what Iraqi politicians are truly thinking. Somehow, I think my state dept. friends, who actually meet with and converse with the Iraqi politicians daily, would have more incite into their view. Your opinion may differ.

I think you're full of shit.
I don't think you have "state dept. friends, who actually meet with and converse with the Iraqi politicians daily".
I think that's bullshit.
Your story stinks.

I tell you what, I know most of the guys on the DSS teams in Baghdad, and a few State guys too.
You IM me the name of this "person" who "actually meets with and converse with the Iraqi politicians daily", and I'll send you the name of the American who met with Sistani.
I'll check your story out.

tag