Posted: 10/5/2010 7:46:38 PM EDT
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I've been an avid 1911 Kool-Aid drinker ever since I got my first one, a full-size neon orange squirt gun with yellow grip panels. I couldn't explain it. It was just looked bad ASS. It was big and ugly with a nose like a freight train, and seemed to say "I'm not going to kid you, this is really going to hurt." I got my first 1911 around 2003 while stationed with the Air Force in Idaho. It was a Rock Island Armory pistol, with a crooked rollmark, grips like polished plywood and mismatched parkerizing. I didn't care, I was drawn to the neat row of the black pistols lined up like sleeping soldiers in the gun store's case. After years of gazing longingly at the photos in Guns & Ammo, it was exciting to finally have my very own. It was solid and had a satisfying weight to it that somehow made you think that WWII wasn't really all that much of a challenge after all, what with pistols like these on our belts. Unfortunately, my bubble burst when I discovered that the gun didn't really work all that well. It was plagued with feeding problems that were made somewhat worse when the sear abruptly, and quite literally, crumbled to dust, but not before allowing the pistol to empty its magazine in one long BURRRRRP. Had the gun not been pointed on target, I might have lost a foot, or worse. Thankfully I had never developed the puzzling habit of peering into the muzzle to verify the weapon's condition, as had several of my friends. After several attempts to rehabilitate the weapon, I discovered it was nowhere near the common 1911 tolerances, and no aftermarket components would fit the gun. I soon sold it to an aspiring garage gunsmith and went in search of a replacement. After some searching, I found: Springfield GI model:  It was twice the price of the RIA, but had a warranty and a decent reputation. Unfortunately, it was plagued with some of the same feeding issues as the previous gun. I sent it back to Springfield with a list of complaints and upgrades. When it returned months later, it had a new Black-T finish, Yost-Bonitz retro sights and slim VZ grips. I removed the lanyard ring as a finishing touch, and took it to the range.  Unfortunately, the gun didn't work then, either. The finish made the slide drag severely, sometimes taking a full second to return to battery. In addition, it would barely feed FMJ ammo, and wouldn't even TRY to chamber any JHP. I threw another five hundred or so rounds through it in an effort to wear the finish from the rails, but to no avail. Grief-stricken and besieged by a barrage of snide comments from my friend, an avid Glock-fondler (it got so bad, he has to register with the police when he moves to a new town), I sent the gun back a second time. It returned with a tweaked extractor and a new 16lb recoil spring. After 200 rounds it will now eat any ammo from any magazine and ask for more. This leads me to the theory that it is cheaper to sell a "decent" gun and deal with the relatively few warranty complaints than it is to manufacture them correctly, giving them the loving hand-jobs they deserve. Shortly after purchasing the buggy GI model, I returned from a desert deployment flush with cash from three months of buying only Maxim magazines and the occasional can of Pringles at the BX. Having had several months to research my next gun purchase, I settled on another Springfield, but this time I had learned that nice 1911s were not cheap, so I figured that laying out a little extra cash might help avoid the problems I had experienced with the previous pistols.  The TRP was shockingly well made. I was astounded at how well fitted two pieces of metal could be. The slide moved like an oiled piston, and the gun printed one-hole groups over and over and over. I swapped out the full-length guide rod for a standard stainless plug and picked up a few Wilson 47D mags. However, the gun was somewhat ammunition sensitive again, and would not reliably feed JHP ammo, regardless of what brand and magazine I used. I've yet to send it back to Springfield, but plan to do so before the end of this year. Now that the GI was humming along nicely, I decided to make it my carry gun and all was right with the world. That was, until I saw... The Norinco.  I drove by a gun store one day last summer and in the used pistol case, saw a somewhat worn looking 1911. I asked to handle it and saw that it said "Made in China" on the side. Images of being chased by angry, pitchfork-wielding men with stained NASCAR hats flashed before my eyes. "COMMIE-MADE NINTEEN'LEVENS IS TREASON! GIT 'IM, BOYS!" However, I remembered hearing something vaguely special about these particular guns, so I peeked at the price tag. $360 Remembering my Rock Island had sold for not much more than that new-in-box, I hesitated and politely thanked the dealer. I went to my car and began researching the Norc on my phone. Some common phrases kept appearing: "Amazing", "Incredible", "Rock-solid", "Excellent metal", and other accolades popped up over and over again. I ran back inside the store. There was only one other customer there, and he was floating dangerously close to the pistol case. I noticed he stopped to inspect a Finnish Nagant rifle. I took the opportunity to casually topple a rack of dusty Mausers onto his young son, thereby distracting him from my quarry. The Norinco came with two magazines (one still in the wrapper), an instruction manual and the original box with the styrofoam insert. Karma had supplied me with a replacement for the Rock Island, nearly a decade later. I have since fired hundreds of rounds through the Norc, and it hasn't once jammed, misfed, failed to extract, feed or cycle. It hits where I aim it, and the trigger breaks at a steady 3.5 pounds. And it was the cheapest of the three. Go figure. ETA: More pics!             |
| I never get tired of the 1911 pics..it's like each gun has it's personality and name. The Glock lemmings..I cannot tell the difference between them. Nice handguns you have there...I like the 3rd pic, it's looks like an original A1 but cleaner, nice trigger and grips. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Unpossible U R lying and never owned a 1911 just like me I lied about the 25 I have owned  Ever wonder why people may not believe you? During my 20s I bought a gun a month or more I was young with no responsibility and was hardcore handgunner , bowling pins, IPSC, Steel, etc shot about 250K in handgun rounds during that decade figured it up once I have owned over 100 handguns I switched handguns like under wear to find what worked for me I run my stuff , hard dirty and hot just feel for what most 1911s cost ya shouldn't have to buy different mags , and polish and tweak the thing for a brand new firearm to function acceptably owned a bunch a Wilson was the only thing out f the box that functioned acceptably for me |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Unpossible U R lying and never owned a 1911 just like me I lied about the 25 I have owned Ever wonder why people may not believe you? During my 20s I bought a gun a month or more I was young with no responsibility and was hardcore handgunner , bowling pins, IPSC, Steel, etc shot about 250K in handgun rounds during that decade figured it up once I have owned over 100 handguns I switched handguns like under wear to find what worked for me I run my stuff , hard dirty and hot just feel for what most 1911s cost ya shouldn't have to buy different mags , and polish and tweak the thing for a brand new firearm to function acceptably owned a bunch a Wilson was the only thing out f the box that functioned acceptably for me Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. There are a TON of 1911 manufacturers out there, so finding the right combo of mags and guns is essential. It's completely worth the effort, and fun as well. |
| I really enjoyed reading this story of yours which reminds me of the best type of writing that used to appear in G&A magazine years ago...some of your phrases such as 'it was easy to imagine us winning ww2 with pistols like these on our belts' are brilliant. My own views of 1911's are pretty narrow, I tend to stick with Colts, I've learned to polish and file to cure their hiccups with aplomb...replace parts etc...every 1911 I get gets tinkered with to achieve the proper blend of function and aesthetics, I like the lanyard loops, arched or flat MS housing are fine, short or long trigger etc...I LOVE the wide hammers on the old 1911's which are very comfy for my sensitive thumb to cock. One either 'gets' 1911's or doesn't....I have found few that work right out of the box though, I am fine with that but if one is not mechanically inclined however, there are other guns to buy. I have heard mostly good things about the Norincos...but for me it has to be American steel. |
| I've always been a Glock guy, but I bought my first 1911 last year for about $350 - a used Norinco that had a little work done; a trigger job and new grips. Its quickly become one of my favorites and now often gets carried instead of the Glock. So far its been 100% reliable. A couple weeks ago my dealer somehow got a few in and I picked up another - NIB w/2mags for $350. |
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Now you've done it! The secret is out.
My Nork. It was a $200. rusted truck gun when I bought it. Polished all the internals, replaced the springs, added grips and a brushed nickel finish and still have less than $400. in it. I've put thousands of rounds through it and can't remember the last failure. All that and it will shoot 2" groups all day long with my handloads. It brings me back to the days I carried a Remington-Rand. ETA: It will work with the cheap, $8. USGI clone mags until they fall apart or the lips finally spread enough to throw them away, which is usually a few years down the road. I also added the long trigger. 
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I lol'd at the "Dropping a rack of dusty Mausers on his son". Every 1911 will run great with a new recoil spring and ramp polishing. I still have no idea why manufacturers like to deal with all the warranty claims when 99% of the issues are fixed with a good recoil spring and a feedramp job.  Glad to hear the Norinco is running as it should.  |
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Quoted: Or you could have just bought one Glock and been done with it.  I've owned several Glocks, a 23, a 26 a 17 and a 19. I sold all but the 19, but I never shoot it or carry it. I just don't like them. The grip is wrong, the trigger is terrible, and they're absurdly thick for a 9mm. The only thing they have over a 1911 is capacity. That's really it. I enjoy plinking with it, but it's not my go-to gun. I know that's inconceivable to some people. 1911s suit my geometry much better. The knee-jerk "just get a Glock" line really doesn't apply to everybody. It's unrealistic to expect that they're always the best alternative. |
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Quoted: +1  These 1911 lover threads about harrowing storries of long years trying to make thier gun work right crack me up.I didn't need to do any work to the Norc to get it to run 100%. To date, my G19 has jammed much more than the Norinco. It's proof that the 1911 platform is capable of utter reliability when it's built properly. The Chinese can afford to make them properly, cheaply. US labor is a little more costly, though. |
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Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. There are a TON of 1911 manufacturers out there, so finding the right combo of mags and guns is essential. It's completely worth the effort, and fun as well. In all honesty, it SHOULD run right, right out of the box. I am done playing games with my guns. They should run. I say this as a die-hard 1911 guy... Who now runs M&Ps and has relegated his beloved 1911s to safe queen duty. We've allowed 1911 manufacturers to get away with too much. They SHOULD run like Glocks. They're mechanically far simpler than Glocks or other crunchentickers. We shouldn't have to spend $2k to get a 1911 that runs well on a large scale. (I know, this is when someone will chime in with "my representative sample of ONE runs great, you're an idiot) |
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IIRC, back in the early 90's, those Norinco 1911's were $249 dealer cost. "What cost $249 in 1991 would cost $387.30 in 2009" according to the inflation calculator here http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi I think he got a good deal. |
| I love 1911's....but I've given up on them as a weapon for serious social purposes. They're just too finicky and expensive, and even the expensive ones sometimes don't work all that well. Were I to hit the lottery tomorrow I would collect 1911's like nobody's business...but I'd still carry and use polymer on a day to day basis. |
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My tale of some 1911s. Bought this LW Springfield, shot lower than POA at 25yds. Something Springfield was famous for at the time. Sent it back for a higher rear sight and some Custom Shop work since it was there. Boring as far as reliability, sold it though. The accuracy was very Glock like and I figured the aluminum frame wasnt going to work with me and my high volume shooting.  Besides, someone wanted it more than I did and paid as such. Bought this older Miami Para Limited on a buying binge. The pic shows everything I picked up that week. Dont mind the "for homeowners insurance posterity picture. Thats all I bothered with to take of it. I still feel weird taking pics of guns to show off on the internet.  It ran great with all but the two wore out mags that came with it and for 350 bucks I just had to buy it. Only sold it because Ive never been able to get used to the fatass front straps on Para's. It was also very accurate off the bags. Then theres the TRP. Mine had exactly one round not go all the way into battery out of the very first mag. Never skipped a beat after that for thousands of rounds of abusive treatment. Fairly accurate, the ambi-safety had to go because it got loose fairly quick, but I had a Kings single side I wanted to put in it anyway.  Like I said, I sold it because I wanted to buy more ammo and components. It has that ghey ass Tactical rollmark and it didnt really measure up to the two that replaced it. Bought this jewel for 400 bucks in a private sale, came with all the paperwork and box. Pretty well a mint piece, ran 500 rounds of hardball and probably the same of 200gr reloads through it. Boring in the reliabilty department but hideous when it came to accuracy, Im sure the shitty sights contributed but damn, 6 inch groups at 20yds off-hand was something I couldnt live with.  Bottom line it went bang every single time. Then theres these two mutts. The most expensive Ive owned in a long time but the best.  Accuracy is amazing, triggers awesome. Fit and finish, above what you get from the run of the mill. Reliability, well the Brown did choke with more than 1200 rounds of lead reloads before cleaning. In its defense, the rim and case mouth were pretty chewed up. I guess I should quit waiting ever 6 or 7 reloads before tumbling the brass so I notice these things. But they both always go 1k rounds between fieldstrip and clean. I guess my point is, Ive owned cheaper and more expensive. All but a couple Colts, a Springfield V10(Oh was that a POS) and a Kimber had more than an occasional hiccup. And I wanted to post it here before you get all the Glock leg humpers talking shit. Especially since I had a G23 that was the definition of jammomatic. |
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Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. There are a TON of 1911 manufacturers out there, so finding the right combo of mags and guns is essential. It's completely worth the effort, and fun as well. Automobiles are complex machines... the majority of which have no problem functioning off the showroom floor. Imagine if it didn't run right and the dealer told you, "Well, you can only run Shell gasoline in it. The ride will be terrible unless you put on Pirelli tires too." Such a manufacturer would be out of business pretty darn quick. Modern manufacturing is incredible and yet poorly functioning 1911s abound. You'd think after 99 years gunmakers would have it figured out. And lest I be accused of being a hater, here's my 1911, an STI Spartan: 
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Quoted: Quoted: Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. There are a TON of 1911 manufacturers out there, so finding the right combo of mags and guns is essential. It's completely worth the effort, and fun as well. Automobiles are complex machines... the majority of which have no problem functioning off the showroom floor. Imagine if it didn't run right and the dealer told you, "Well, you can only run Shell gasoline in it. The ride will be terrible unless you put on Pirelli tires too." Such a manufacturer would be out of business pretty darn quick. Modern manufacturing is incredible and yet poorly functioning 1911s abound. You'd think after 99 years gunmakers would have it figured out. And lest I be accused of being a hater, here's my 1911, an STI Spartan: http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff93/stratocaster81/spartan_rub3-800.jpg I'm not so sure about that comparison. You're paying a lot more for a car, and it undergoes more testing and QC than a gun does. There are also regulations about its manufacture, specs, etc. Any joe with a CNC machine and some files can be a 1911 manufacturer. The problem in the 1911 community is standardization and QC. If the companies like Springfield and RIA had tighter control and higher standards, the 1911's reputation among the laymen would improve. Like someone said above, it's because we allow them to get away with it. We don't hold them accountable as long as they have a Whiz-bang warranty to fix the problems that shouldn't have been there in the first place. |
Good story! I like it. 
To each his own but I have zero tolerance for an unreliable handgun. No koolaid in the world is strong enough to overcome that nasty taste and I've seen more than my share of low-end and high-end 1911 designs not meeting expectations. It's also a pretty sad commentary that a Chinese version of the iconic US pistol is considered the zenith. That is just pathetic.  
While I'm on a roll... I never really understood why people think the ergos are so great. Every one that I've picked up felt like holding a piece of unfinished 1x2 lumber without chamfered edges. Besides.....even JMB (God rest his soul) knew he could do better. BHP is dead sexy.
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I bought My Norc 1911 for $329.00 NIB back before they were banned from import. It's been flawless for a couple thousand rounds.
I purchased a SA GI model for My Son for His 21st BD. (He loves it!) It had the annoying habit of tossing the empties back into the shooters' face. 
I bought a new extractor from CDNN for $19.95 & it cured the problem. Glocks are OK, but...there's something about JMB's masterpiece that soothes My Soul.
The Ol' Crew Chief |
| I've had 2 springfields with nary a problem between them. First a lightweight which I traded in for a full rail TRP Operator. The Operator is armory koted and I've never felt a smoother action on anything. It has a full length guide rod thats a pain to take apart but it shoots all day every day like a dream. Maybe I was lucky with the two I got but I didnt buy cheap stuff, not that cheap stuff is always bad. |
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Many years ago a friend and I decided to get serious about pistol competition.
He flatly could not afford a Wilson gun. I spent the money I would have spent on the Wilson, on a Smithy machine instead. We, with the help of books and videos, set out to learn to build competition quality pistols. We started with Norinco guns because they were cheap––less than $250 a copy. Lo these many years have passed and we have yet to screw up a build. We now build rifles, too. I bought a new lathe at this years' SHOT show, and am now breaking it in. In fact, we just shortened a local LE's rifle barrel, turned it down and threaded it for his new can. I was sorry to see Norinco go. |
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Or you could have just bought one Glock and been done with it. +1 These 1911 lover threads about harrowing storries of long years trying to make thier gun work right crack me up.Almost as bad as the absolute bullshit glock fanboys come up with. I've only been around one glock that worked worth a shit. The rest were a joke. I find it VERY hard to believe I'm the only one that has had that kind of luck. But hey, you continue your regularly scheduled bullshit. |
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Quoted: Good story! I like it. To each his own but I have zero tolerance for an unreliable handgun. No koolaid in the world is strong enough to overcome that nasty taste and I've seen more than my share of low-end and high-end 1911 designs not meeting expectations. It's also a pretty sad commentary that a Chinese version of the iconic US pistol is considered the zenith. That is just pathetic. While I'm on a roll... I never really understood why people think the ergos are so great. Every one that I've picked up felt like holding a piece of unfinished 1x2 lumber without chamfered edges. Besides.....even JMB (God rest his soul) knew he could do better. BHP is dead sexy. What do you consider reliable? If someone tells me their pistol has never failed then I know they do more talking then shooting. Sooner or later an automatic will shit the bed, all of them. It might be a bad mag, bad round or limpwristing or a thumb riding a slide. Might just be an act of God, I know a 1911 requires more diligence when it comes to recoil springs and mags and past 10k rounds you need to look at your extractor possibly needing replaced or a little bend put back into it. But I can live with that for what I get out of it. Besides, it only took the industry like 30 years to get a polymer framed striker thingy pistol right. That M&P was a homerun I will give them that. The world might have finally came up with a pistol that might make range toys out of my 1911s. |
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Good story! I like it.
To each his own but I have zero tolerance for an unreliable handgun. No koolaid in the world is strong enough to overcome that nasty taste and I've seen more than my share of low-end and high-end 1911 designs not meeting expectations. It's also a pretty sad commentary that a Chinese version of the iconic US pistol is considered the zenith. That is just pathetic.
While I'm on a roll... I never really understood why people think the ergos are so great. Every one that I've picked up felt like holding a piece of unfinished 1x2 lumber without chamfered edges. Besides.....even JMB (God rest his soul) knew he could do better. BHP is dead sexy. What do you consider reliable? If someone tells me their pistol has never failed then I know they do more talking then shooting. Sooner or later an automatic will shit the bed, all of them. It might be a bad mag, bad round or limpwristing or a thumb riding a slide. Might just be an act of God, I know a 1911 requires more diligence when it comes to recoil springs and mags and past 10k rounds you need to look at your extractor possibly needing replaced or a little bend put back into it. But I can live with that for what I get out of it. Besides, it only took the industry like 30 years to get a polymer framed striker thingy pistol right. That M&P was a homerun I will give them that. The world might have finally came up with a pistol that might make range toys out of my 1911s. I put over 50k through my P226 without a single failure, I gave it to a friend so I would never have to see the day it choked
It was replaced by a Kimber, I put over 30k through it without a single failure.....than came constant failures. I replaced the barrel link and it runs like a champ again. They will all eventually choke, some just sooner than others and that is NOT a dig about the Kimber. 30k is pretty damn good. I maintained both well but there were times when both were so dirty(two day long high round count range sessions) I was surprised that they didn't choke. ETA: I replaced the springs in the sig once. Didn't know they were supposed to be at certain intervals  Replaced the recoil spring in the Kimber every 1000 rounds +/-.
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Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. Name one other machine where you wouldn't be pissed if it didn't work from the manufacturer. You buy a brand-new car. Won't shift into second gear. Do you say "Why not, it's' a complex machine? And fixing it will be half the fun!" |
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Good story! I like it.
To each his own but I have zero tolerance for an unreliable handgun. No koolaid in the world is strong enough to overcome that nasty taste and I've seen more than my share of low-end and high-end 1911 designs not meeting expectations. It's also a pretty sad commentary that a Chinese version of the iconic US pistol is considered the zenith. That is just pathetic.
While I'm on a roll... I never really understood why people think the ergos are so great. Every one that I've picked up felt like holding a piece of unfinished 1x2 lumber without chamfered edges. Besides.....even JMB (God rest his soul) knew he could do better. BHP is dead sexy. What do you consider reliable? If someone tells me their pistol has never failed then I know they do more talking then shooting. Sooner or later an automatic will shit the bed, all of them. It might be a bad mag, bad round or limpwristing or a thumb riding a slide. Might just be an act of God, I know a 1911 requires more diligence when it comes to recoil springs and mags and past 10k rounds you need to look at your extractor possibly needing replaced or a little bend put back into it. But I can live with that for what I get out of it. Besides, it only took the industry like 30 years to get a polymer framed striker thingy pistol right. That M&P was a homerun I will give them that. The world might have finally came up with a pistol that might make range toys out of my 1911s. Give them a try. The M&P is the only gun that's made my 1911s optional. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Why not? It's a complex machine. All the parts need to jive in order for it to function. Name one other machine where you wouldn't be pissed if it didn't work from the manufacturer. You buy a brand-new car. Won't shift into second gear. Do you say "Why not, it's' a complex machine? And fixing it will be half the fun!" You're missing my point. When made PROPERLY, the parts all jive and nothing goes wrong. When it doesn't receive the attention it deserves during production, ANY complex machine will be problematic. Properly made 1911s tend to be more expensive because of this fact. |
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Quoted: Quoted: IIRC, back in the early 90's, those Norinco 1911's were $249 dealer cost. "What cost $249 in 1991 would cost $387.30 in 2009" according to the inflation calculator here http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi I think he got a good deal. I just wish I had held onto a few of them that I ordered. |