Posted: 8/12/2010 6:13:51 PM EDT
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I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this  I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening |
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Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh. "not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4" dont sbs' also require one of those forms? Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference. The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference. |
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I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.
I would want that in writing, though. |
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Quoted: Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting..... There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. |
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Quoted: There is no NFA tax to be paid because thus will be a title one weapon the same as any other shotgun off the rackQuoted: Quoted: Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh. "not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4" dont sbs' also require one of those forms? Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference. The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference. |
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Quoted: Are you sure?Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle. Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction |
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Quoted: Drama llama?I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once. I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet. But it's coming smart ass |
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Quoted: Quoted: Are you sure?Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle. Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction I'm betting that the other guy who mentioned it wasn't a shotgun to begin with but rather a "firearm" might be right. |
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I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is. I would want that in writing, though. I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun |
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Quoted: Quoted: Drama llama?I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once. I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet. But it's coming smart ass I'm tracking, drama llama, you could have just waited until it was there.  |
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Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting..... There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"? |
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Quoted: We have a bet or not keith ?Quoted: Are you sure?Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle. Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction The Tech branch letter posted by me once it arrves will suffice for proof as long as it states what I said in the top post, bet? |
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Quoted: wrong, nothing to do with it, the judge is a pistol, it has a rifled barreli have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the *forgive me father* Judge revolver ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs |
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Quoted:
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Are you sure?
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I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle. Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction It could be a .410 to skirt the DD classification, ya know... |
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