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Posted: 4/9/2015 8:39:49 PM EDT
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I have a few of these CCI 45ACP shotshells. For those interested in what's in them and the OAL, here you are:
OAL 1.1925", 1/3 oz No. 9 shot. 
I'm going to try making some as per various Youtube videos using LC .308 cases, a 41 magnum carbide sizing die, and a 38spl seating die. RCBS makes a set of dies but they are a bit expensive. |
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 I followed the instructions on The Ammo Channel, but I couldn't get mine to function. Shot fine, just not enough power to cycle the slide. I will revisit this project sometime in the future. |
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Seems like for 100gr of shot they're using a small powder charge. I'm going to try some loads for 1/3rd oz (about 146gr).
Since there's no significant contact between the shot and the bore, I suspect it might take more powder to get the shot up to speed. We'll see. I'm waiting on the 41magnum die to get started. I've cut 21 cases and plenty of card discs. |
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I would have to check my notes, forgot the weight of shot I used. The 41 mag die works well for forming cases, doing the crimp is what I had problems with. I guess the RCBS shotshell die set does a good job, but they are pricey for an experiment like this. I used a modified RN seater in a 50 AE seating die to crimp. Did a small amount of crimp in steps. 5 steps IIRC. |
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I'm having problems finding a die to make the crimp with.
Apparently the die to use is the Lee 38 spl seat and feed die because of the mouth of the die is shaped right for the job. The Lee seat and feed die in their 4 die set seems to be different than the one I see on the youtube video, and I don't want to spend $44 to find out if it works. I sacrificed a 30 year old 223 Pacific/Hornady resize die with a broken neck/decapping stem (no spares available) and used a 1/8" carbide bit on a dremel tool to rough cut it and radius the mouth. I put the die in a mini-mill vice and spun it as I cut with the carbide bit. The Dremel was strapped to an angled piece of wood to help stabilize it. It's pretty rough, but it will crimp the case without being annealed. It just takes lots of lube, and patience to work the crimp. I'm going to see about having a machine shop clean up and polish the radius for me... or I have to make a tool to do it myself. 
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I'm looking for a place local to machine my die.
Meantime I made 20 rounds with my rough cut die. The crimps are... Rough. They're uneven and reflect the Dremel marks. The crimp happens all at once with a "crunch". I turn the case and apply pressure every 1/4 turn to even out the crimp as best I can. I put a #8 finish washer between the brass and my rough cut die and that helps smooth out the crimp. They can come out a bit lopsided. I only ruined 3 cases. My recipe is 4.5gr of 700-X, 115gr of #7.5 copper plated shot with card wads. I might head out tomorrow to see how they work. |
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Originally Posted By Poop3rscoop3r:
Very interesting OP. Please update when you test them. Do the CCI birdshot rounds cycle your slide? I've never shot any yet. I can't replace them so I thought I'd make my own to play with. Here are some photos: top shows the Dremelled 223 sizing die with a test crimp. It is uneven, and shows the bit cuts. 
The next shows the finish washers which helps to smooth out the lumps and tool marks, till I get it machined correctly. It doesn't seem to matter that the washer is off center: it conforms to the die, and stays put. It's good for maybe 5 rounds before I have to throw it away. I feel the crimp form, then turn the case about 1/8 turn, and re-crimp gently 6 to 8 times to smooth out the crimp. The top 5 shells are early ones, the bottom 5 are the last 5 I did. You get much better and faster at making them with practice. The clear wads are cut from milk jugs. The card wads are cut from Winchester White boxes. In addition, I read the castboolits thread and tried sizing the round (full length 308 then using the 41 magnum die) before cutting it. The case is much easier to size this way and is much more concentric. I mark the case with a dial caliper at 1.200", cut with a small pipe cutter, grasping the case with an Irwin Quick Grip clamp to twirl the case to save my fingers. 
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Update:
I shot the rounds I made yesterday in a Glock 30S and a Para-ordnance P14-45. None of the rounds would cycle, and the recoil seemed mild/weak. There are no signs of excessive pressure on the primers. A few of the cases have split. So I might have to try a heavier load, or try a different powder. Here are the patterns: the G30S at 10 feet seemed to disperse more than the P-14, but at 5 ft there wasn't much difference. 
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Success!
On the new load: 6.0gr Bullseye under 120gr of 7-1/2 shot, card wads: all 12 rounds cycled, with the very last once failing to eject. I think I could add 5 more grains of shot judging by the amount of space left after crimping. The powder will compress a bit. One round I loaded at 5.5 gr Bullseye failed to cycle. It was fun to shoot pieces of clay pigeons hand tossed into the air, or used hulls. The hulls would go downrange about 10 yards after hitting them. Recoil was moderate. Brass was tossed about 5 feet to my right. Yesterday other than the fact that none of my rounds would cycle my G30S or P-14, I had a lot of leading in the bore. I wasn't sure if it was due to my shot shells or new bullets I was trying (230gr Bayou coated bullets). The Bayous were over a new load of True Blue I was trying, and that might have contributed. The recoil on these rounds was heavy and the brass was ejected forcefully, so my load might have been too high for these bullets, even if at the mid range for lead. However, today after shooting only the 13 rounds of my shot shells and nothing else, the bore was leaded badly. I followed up with about 100 rounds of FMJ and other rounds and that cleaned up a lot of the lead. I think I'd sacrifice some shot capacity by using a shot cup to avoid the leading issue. I don't know how hard it will be to stuff them into these previously fired cases. The mouth is smaller after crimping and firing compared to "virgin" brass. It took me a couple of hours to scrub the mess out from my 2 barrels yesterday. At least today there's only the P-14 to clean and it isn't bad after all those other rounds flaking off the lead! Edited for spelling and correcting numbers after counting the spent cases... 
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I have been thinking about why I'm getting so much leading of my barrels.
The shot is claimed to be high antimony, and copper plated to boot. The speed of the shot shouldn't be so high as to cause leading on the basis of that. Could it be that the little card wad between the powder and shot is so totally destroyed, it results in hot gases around some of the shot, softening it to cause the leading? I have found bits of cardboard wadding, all tattered and singed. After the brass is crimped, and then fired once, inserting a plastic shot cup will really not be possible. I'm going to experiment with fiber wads, 1/4" to start and see if that helps. If it does, then I'll split them and see what I can get away with. Cleaning up the barrel even after only a few shot shells is such a chore, it detracts from the fun of shooting them. |
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When I shot my loads, I also shot a lot of cast bullets that day. I didn't notice any abnormal leading. I used cardboard wads cut from a beer 12 pack. My shot is old reclaimed I've had around for since the 80's. |
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LGS had some Wonder Wads.They're like thick, firm felt, meant for black powder guns.
The thicker wad means 107gr of shot can be put in. It does help reduce the leading a lot. Again, 6gr of Bullsye is behind the shot, with continued good cycling out of all but 1 round out of about 10 I fired off today. |
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OK I got in a 7/16" ball end mill bit (cobalt 4 flute from ebay, $9.95 shipped).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161617510345 
I have a mini-mill which I have only mini-mally used as a drill press, and without any clamps to secure my vice, I was able to smooth out my Dremelled die (held in a machinist's vice) pretty well by twisting the bit in chuck by hand. The vice was only secured with a Quick Grip. Once I get in my clamps I can use the power and mill out a deeper cavity with radiused corners. 
Here a test piece of newly cut and sized brass has been gently crimped by feel. It is much easier to crimp and quite smooth. 
Is it possible to overdo it? I thought I'd see what happens:  
The die is only as deep as the mouth of my old die. It really needs to be bored deeply to give me some adjustment. I used the die to smooth out a few of my old crimps and it really does a nice job there. You just have to be careful not to lean into the handle of the press! |
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Very nice. I'm going to put that on my "to do" list. Thanks for posting all the pics.  It seems a little strange to have a two person thread around here.  I have torn down all of my 6.0 grs Unique rounds and have them ready to charge with Bullseye. |
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I'm liking the 6gr of Unique.
But I'm not giving up on the 700X, so I've loaded a couple rounds with 5.3 and 5.5gr 700X to see if that works. I tried using my 700X in my LnL for .45acp, but my Hornady case activated powder drop hates it. Extreme variations of charge, jamming the rotor, just horrible. I also have some International Clays which I can't use for pistol loads, but seeing as how these are shotshells I don't see why I can't use this powder in them. I also don't understand why more folks aren't posting in this thread. I suppose just because we find these shotshells great fun to make and shoot doesn't mean they do. For me it's the challenge. No dies available and nobody makes them anymore. Old stock for sale for $2-$3 a shot on GB. Now I have A Glock Semiauto shot/handgun! When my M10/45 gets out of jail I'm going to try these full auto... |
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If it makes you two feel any better I have been following this thread. I made some .45 shot shells a few years ago for killing snakes. I used cut down .270 cases, a cut
down .30-06 full length sizer die(it had been previous ruined). I used 410 wads to drastically tighten patterns, I just used a couple layers of card stock hot melted to the top to hold it all together. I don't remember any load data off hand but I know they didn't cycle. |
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Originally Posted By roach68: If it makes you two feel any better I have been following this thread. I made some .45 shot shells a few years ago for killing snakes. I used cut down .270 cases, a cut down .30-06 full length sizer die(it had been previous ruined). I used 410 wads to drastically tighten patterns, I just used a couple layers of card stock hot melted to the top to hold it all together. I don't remember any load data off hand but I know they didn't cycle. How were you crimping the case mouth? |
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Back from the range:
700X 5.3gr and 5.5gr both cycled, using a Wonder Wad between shot and powder, and card and thin cardboard on top of the shot. No signs of over pressure. No leading with these rounds. This amount of 700X is in the upper end of loads for .45ACP rounds using certain 200gr lead bullets (Lyman manual), so I figured it should be OK for half this amount of shot. I have started measuring my shot with a Lee 1.3 cc dipper from my 41 magnum set, that gets about 110 gr of #7-1/2 shot, about as much as the case will hold and not spill over. Edit: Closeup of the 2 test rounds with 5.3 and 5.5gr of 700X: 
Some more photos of the newest batch I made up today. Here are some messed up LC cases I got in a batch of brass, good for cutting. They have been resized and put through the 41 magnum die. It's easier to resize/reshape prior to cutting (a tip from one of the previous experimenters): 
I made some serious mistakes on the 3 cases on the left as I crimped them. The cases sometimes aren't centered in the crimp die, so they were destroyed. The middle 6 are reloaded cases, the ones on the right are the surviving newly made ones: 
I did a bit more chamfering and that helped center the cases for crimping. The crimping feels sort of like seating a primer into a smooth but snug primer pocket. When there's high resistance, that's when the crimp is done. I have reloaded these all with these new wads from Midway. I don't like the 45 cal ones I used between the powder and shot. They are too stiff, a bit too big in diameter and harder to get level compared to my Wonder Wads. I use a tweezer to get them in and tamp them with a 3/8" dowel. Today I prepped the shot by giving them a squirt of PB Blaster Silicone spray. I want to see if that helps the leading issue at all. Of course, the stronger wads might help that anyway. However the .38-55 wads (.030") are great for the top. Perfect fit to keep the shot in. 
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My last upgrade, and a tribute to those here who showed me the way by using the HF 2" chop saw to cut their 300 BLK brass.
It is a garage fix that isn't pretty but does the job. I used some scrap trim and garage door weather stripping to make this jig. The screws are positioned so that the brass abuts the tapered screw chamfer. By screwing up or down you can adjust the length of the brass. The screw close to the blade adjusts for straightness and provides support so the brass doesn't get pulled away. You do have to hold the brass in place. I was too lazy to use my router to make a deep groove in some lumber like others have done in a more craftsmanlike manner. The cut isn't perfectly level because the case is tapered. I might have to add another screw near the blade in the groove for adjustment. But then again, it's good enough as it is for the purpose of making these shot shells. Or you can turn the case a third of a turn or a quarter turn and cut it in small steps for a more square cut. The saw is pretty much up to the task, slowing down a bit and sometimes stopping at the back wall of the case. I might add some more screws near the blade path as a blade guard. The jig is attached to the saw from the underside using 2 screws. 
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I bored the crimp die just a bit more today, by I noticed that it left some chatter marks. I think the bit is not spinning concentrically. So I need a collet to replace the drill chuck on my HF mini-mill.
Even so, the die does a nice crimp. Being a little deeper into the die, the radius is easier to get the brass into. A little jiggle and I feel a clunk as the brass settles in. It doesn't take much force at all, even with no annealing. Here's the last bunch. I soaked the .45 fiber wads in silicone spray to soften them up a bit and it's a lot easier to get into the case over the powder charge. Hopefully the silicone doesn't affect the powder. 5.3gr 700X, 110 gr 7-1/2 shot: 
Although I didn't see any sign of over pressure in my brass, and the recoil is not harsh and the brass is thrown only about 5 feet to my right, I found 1 case in my pocket which has a bulge on one side of the case. None of the others showed this. 
Here's the primer, which I don't think is looking excessively flattened and isn't cratered: 
I don't know what I had in this case: I think it had more than 115 gr of shot, and 6 gr of Unique. Lesson: use any of this data with care and start lower and work up. Just because it doesn't blow up my gun, well, you know the rest... |
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Thanks... it has been a while in the making.
An update: experimenting with various loads of powder and shot: 5.3 gr 700X and 6.0 gr Bullseye will cycle with enough shot: 115-120 gr of 7-1/2 shot over either a paper wad or the others I have tried. It's hard to stuff this much in with the thicker wads like Wonder Wad, though. Lower the shot to 107 gr and less and neither powder charge is enough to cycle the gun consistently. At 95 gr shot there is no cycling with 5.3 gr 700X. With 110gr of 7-1/2 shot and 5 gr of International Clays I got cycling, but 95 gr of shot and 4.5 gr of International Clays I didn't (this was a short case I was simply trying to use, I would normally use more powder with less shot)... I will have to do a lot more experimenting and watch for pressure signs that I read about with this powder. There are cases with mild bulges in these tests, particularly with 6gr Bullseye and 120gr shot, but taking a close look at my standard .45ACP cases with mid-range loads, they're there too, and I just never really paid any attention to them. I am juggling many things but it doesn't look like I am overcharging at these powder charge levels in my Para P14 or Glock 30S. Leading seems less with the better wads but still present, most of which clears with a mag or 2 of plated or FMJ ammo. It's a great sight to behold a hand tossed clay pigeon shattered by one of these 8 feet away... or a can in the air go downrange full of tiny holes... 
Disclaimer: As with all reloading, work up your own loads and use these numbers at your own risk... Edit: Today I have been working the 700X to save on my Bullseye, and I think on closer inspection the primers are slightly flattened with the Bullseye compared to the 700X. 5.6gr of 700X with 115gr of 7-1/2 shot with a Wonder Wad cycles most of the time with my P14, but fails to eject completely with the Glock. The major issue even with the P14, is there isn't enough ejection force for reliable cycling. I'm going to stick with the P14 for now since it seems to eject better than the Glock. I am loading up some rounds with 5.7gr and 5.8gr of 700X under 115gr of shot. Leading is still present with Wonder Wads. If cycling isn't a big issue then much less powder can be used. 
Edit: more load experiments. I tried 5.7 and 5.8gr of 700x, these worked fairly well, particularly with a firm grip, with a couple of failures to eject out of 10. However, up at 6.0 gr 700X there was some obvious unburnt powder, and most of these failed to eject. I think we reached that point were more powder and greater pressure seems to make the end of the case grab the rifling, therefore slowing extraction and halting ejection.. Some folks seem to think annealing will help this issue. And more 700X doesn't really help. I think for the way my P14 is, 700X and 115gr of shot isn't going to cycle reliably. I seem to get better results with the 6gr of Bullsye, but there seem to be higher pressure signs with the Bullseye. I'm wondering is a lighter recoil spring will help... Too bad there aren't aluminum cases to try. |
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