Hello everyone,

I've been watching this thread, instead of blowing up a de-railed, run amuck thread I thought it better to blow up my own derailed, run amuck thread in order to get the train back on track, headed the right direction.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/393235_made_my_first_reloads_tonight.html&page=2

If link isn't hot, blame the android, leave me out of it.

Exceptions needing call outs are as follows.

Shooting lead through a Glock barrel is safe. WRONG

Someone missed the memo on polygonal bores and increased pressure effects. Upon primer ignition pressure moves behind and ahead of projectile. Traditional rifling creates the gap needed to keep a soft lead bullet from sealing bore. Polygonal rifling is smooth making it possible for lead to seal bore. Add fouling into the forcing cone or sometimes called the transition area between chamber and rifling, its possible for bore to seal, blocking gas from escaping ahead of the bullet. This allows a spike in pressure and tug of war in reverse. Gas is going to escape from someplace.

Pressure follows the least path of resistance, meaning pressure will escape the weakest possible point. A sudden spike in pressure, like primer on powder ignition either finds a quick means of escape or becomes a bomb.

To say loading lead to shoot through a Glock barrel is safe is like saying smoking is safe. Just because you do it with no ill effect today doesn't mean harm isn't in the future.

Henny is a good example of someone who's loaded lead for Glock  barrels forever without I'll effect. He casts his own bullets, watches his brinnel and casts hard lead. Henny is also righteous in keeping his Glock  barrels free from fouling.

To say loading lead to shoot through factory Glock barrels is safe is wrong and experiences support this as does Glock owner manual. Shooting lead through Glock barrels is done. Glock never said it was safe and it's not a safe practice for everyone.

I got a saying. Well, I got lots of sayings.. One being if you play with a bag of rattlesnakes long enough you could be bit. For anyone taking this practice to be incapable of consequence. It's not a matter of if, but when. Period.

Plated bullets load same as Jacketed. WRONG

Plating on plated bullets is much thinner than jacketed. Plated should be loaded no hotter than mid-range jacketed data or risk pressure issues and/or plating seperating from lead. I've tested this with both Berrys and Ranier. Large chunks of plating laying on a concrete floor is telling of seperation.

Another issue for plating is crimp. Use of fcd is fine but use a light crimp or risk seperation of plating. Again, plating laying on concrete floor is telling. Use very much crimp on a Berrys 185 grain hbrn bullet and don't be surprised when someone walks by at range suggesting you tighten the choke on your .45acp barrel.

Regards,


dc.

If you've got something to add, add it. Don't roll your eyes in disapproval, what exactly don't you agree with ?

Where's the little smiley face that's eating pop corn??

Right you are sir, this is a big no-no.
Though this will still end with somebody thinking they know more because they haven't blown their gun up yet.

Edit: Just to be clear though for all, it would be perfectly acceptable to buy an aftermarket barrel with traditional rifling to shoot those cast rounds through.
Is it worth it? Whole different debate, bit to re-emphasize the OP's point its all about the rifling on the barrel with Glocks.

I would say of the course of 20K rounds fired, yes it would be worth it.  I can find lead much cheaper and easier than FMJ.  The cost would be made up in a few thousand rounds at the most.  Even more if you cast.

My take on the problem with shooting lead in a poly barrel is a little different.  Seems that the fouling isn't a big problem as long as you only shoot lead, but unless the lead is completely removed before you shoot a jacketed bullet, the lead acts as an obstruction, and problems ensue.
I've shot plated bullets, and don't really like em much.  I reduced the load 10% from jacketed, without problems.
The ONLY issue I've EVER read about with Glock kabooms was with the early .40 S&W chambers.  The feed ramp extended into the chamber too far, causing "guppied" cases.  With hot loads, or brass that had been loaded too many times, there was a risk of case head separation.
9mm never had this problem, and in fact, the leading issue is not as crucial, because 9mm barrels/breeches are generally thicker than the other calibers.

I worked two Glock 21 failures last year. One was factory ammunition and with some help from me the guy got a check for $700.00 from commercial ammunition manufacturer. This failure was unrelated to lead.

The other was an older guy, in another forum who'd listened to others and ignored the obvious. His "excuse" was pistol fired out of battery. This is a common excuse used to cover catastrophic case failures within polygonal bores and lead fouling.

By the end of thread the guy had to admit his misdoings given the picture of what really happened I painted for him.

For the record, I sob carry a bug G19. I won't shoot lead through Glock  bore. I could if I followed Henny's methods to the letter, fact is it's simpler to fit a Barsto barrel and be done with it. I've got several thousand 9mm loaded using cast. Just haven't gotten around to fitting barrel yet.

I left part of the picture painted in first post. I'd be most impressed if someone finished brushing the canvas.

Never give it up in one post,


dc..

Double post.

I also ordered an aftermarket barrel after hearing about this issue. Good thing I researched the topic before shooting anything through it. I will be purchasing a 9mm Lone wolf conversion barrel to shoot 9mm out of my g27, since I have no desire to shoot .40

whatever. thousands of lead through a G17 - no issues.

How often are you cleaning your bore?  How many rounds will you go before cleaning?

I've never shot lead, but I've had my Gen 2 G22 since '91 and I would consider picking up some lead bullets if they were cheap.

I just went through most of Glock's website and didn't see one mention, or disclaimer, stating that lead bullets should not be shot.  I also went back through my original manual and there is no warning against shooting lead.  It does state in red ink, that if I shoot reloads through my Glock, I'll void the warranty, but since I purchased it on 7/29/91, I don't think the 'reloads' clause is still an issue, lol.

Chris

I have shot thousands of plated,lead, Moly through glocks in 9/40/45  with factory barrels for the last 20 years Never had a problem and intend to continue to do so.

Threads running right on track. We did this one time in General Discussion and believe it or not. Conversation got technical in a real kind of way PDQ, Posted Haste but Pronto.

Here's another brush stroke on the canvas.

Wiki, note what McMillan has to say.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling#section_4

Same question to you then...how often are you cleaning your bore, after shooting lead bullets?  

Every 100 rds, 200, 300?

Chris

Chris, I suggest you visit with Henny, hopefully he will have some input. He's firing lead through several Glock  barrels and done so for years. His word is the only word on this subject I would trust within this forum. Henny and myself have exchanged a few out of forum conversations. Although I'm not comfortable shooting lead through my Glock bore since I use this gun for carry and run a reasonably warm all copper bullet.
I am comfortable Henny knows more than the average reloader on this topic.

Regards,


dc.

I don't see any cite, just an article speculating on why Glock might have issued some 'warning' that the author is referencing, but providing no evidence that it even exists.

Also, regarding the conjecture, it sounds like the scenario involves guns that are fouled beyond what most who are even fairly deligent with firearms care, would allow to happen.

I posted in the thread that you reference in your OP and stated that lead is safe to shoot in a Glock, but requires more frequent cleaning and I stand by that statement.

Nothing on Glock's site, or in my Glock manual, states that I shouldn't be shooting lead.

It does state in my manual, that if I shoot reloads in my weapon, I void the warranty, because Glock believes that reloaders are all over map and a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

As far as Gayle McMillan's opinion goes, well...barrel makers are all over the map as far as what works and doesn't work, so I'll just file it over there.

Chris

Moly what ? I run moly coat fmj through an open class gun.

Have yet to see moly coat lead.

That's fine. I'm painting brush strokes here. I'll get you to where your standing at. This has been done so many times I'm surprised to see you standing on that side of the fence.

As my friend Mr. Baker used to say, " everybody has to be someplace."

dc.

You have not seen moly coated lead?

Bear creek make a whole slew of the as does black bullet international.  The ones i use are bear creek. They are usually about 2/3 of the price of plated. The 147 with 3.8 wst is the bomb for idpa

People moly coat lead pistol bullets...it's not uncommon.  Probably even using hexagonal boron nitride, h-BN, as well.

Chris

I am waiting for someone to offer them fancy color painted bullets like they have in Europe. Be cool to pull out a pink or purple tipped cartridge.

I think what you'll find is bullets are coated with a synthetic wax compound containing molybdenum disulphide.

Not exactly what I perceive as moly coating I give jacketed bullets. Wax is prone to fouling and I would have concern using lead bullets larger in diameter than jacketed bullets in that caliber through polygonal bore.

dc.

You could be right. Not sure what he process is, but they call them moly. I have driven them up to 1100 fps and experienced no leading. Have read in another forum of some open guys using them .

It's worth it to me over plated or FMJ. For every 2k plated I can get 3k moly. Makes a big difference when I shoot 12- 15k rounds a year.

I have the Lyman Turbo 1200 moly kit.  I can moly coat any bullet I choose, but since I don't use lead bullets, I confine myself to jacketed bullets.

I can't speak to commercial moly coated lead bullets, but the Lyman kit is pretty simple, so I don't see why that's not being used by some shooting mollied lead?  It's not rocket science.

Chris

I use the same kit.

You get Dillons periodicals ?

Coating isn't the overriding safety factor to your use of lead. What bhn are these bullets ?

If you mean their monthly catalog, yes, I've gotten them since '95.  Still have most of them here...for the covers of course.

I don't disagree with you, that shooting lead in Glock factory barrels requires one to be a bit more judicious, but I don't think that it's an inherently dangerous endeavor, like you seem to make it out to be.

Just clean the bore out more frequently, is all that I'm suggesting and one won't (shouldn't) have any 'problems'.

Chris

Agree. My buddy is a target shooter with a Glock 21. He shoots lead thruough his gun all of time, probably >30,000, and he's never had a problem with the original Glock barrel. BUT he cleans the barrel religiously. It is so clean that you can probably "eat off of it." And he never shoots a max loads either.

I bought my M31 a couple of years back.  I never made an attempt to shoot lead through it (I'd read the warnings).

I did try to shoot plated bullets through it.  Even at 8 or 10 yds. I had "patterns", not groups.  I bought a Wolf .357 SIG barrel for it and that cured the issue - with the same exact load.  Maybe some Glocks will shoot plated bullets okay.  Mine did not.  If/when I buy a .40 S&W barrel for my M31 it will be a Wolf barrel.

Oh, I've not tried to shoot lead bullets through the .357 SIG Wolf barrel either.

Look up how the different barrels are made and you'll see the polygonal is "funny animal" compared to traditional barrels.

Funny you should post this.  Just last week I tried plated bullets through a Glock 19 for the first time.  Shot 100 of Barrys plated and all in a 3 inch group at 50 feet and no "leading" signs.

Then started shooting Rainier plated and what a surprise, patterns for sure no groups.  "group" was like 8-10 inches at 50 feet. WTF  

I guess you just have to test everything in your own gun.  I am still freaked out about the "group"  Both loads 4.5 grns   W 231.

I've shot my Glock 23 for years with mid-velocity, semi-hard (i.e., 90% wheelweights/10% lino) cast bullets without issue, long before I even knew what polygonal rifling was.

I don't really give a shit about the theories.  Hard bullets, proper lube, sensible velocities, careful reloading procedures and good cleaning and you are good to go.

Every theory and ka-boom story has an "IF" in it.  If you don't clean, if you go high velocity, if you get lead build-up. Bullshit.

Remove the "IF's and you will have an intact Glock for twenty some odd years as I have.

Everything in this post is correct.

I've shot cast bullets from my Glock 22 and 27 since the early '90s and never had a problem. Probably shot in excess of 10,000 rounds.



I use wheelweights and heat treat to a bhn of 18-20 and shoot lighter target loads. I don't try to load high end loads with lead. I've measured my brass after firing and haven't had any of the case bulges I read about so often.



I clean my guns after every trip to the range (maybe 300-400 rounds max). I've never had anything more than minimal leading.



I discussed this with a Glock Armorer at a gun show in the early 90's (i know he's not the final word or maybe even an acceptable source), and he said the heat treating would eliminate the problem.



I also shoot light target 9mm loads from Glock Gen 4 model 17s, and 26s using Rainier 115 gr. plated HPs and get good 25yd accuracy (1-1/2" to 2" groups). Shot over 3,000 of these.



1911smith,

Do you know of anyone having problems with the plated bullets?  The Rainier web site says they are acceptable for Glock pistols. I load them like they are lead, but are



they a problem with the polygonal rifling? I load target loads with these for my daughter to practice with and I'm not always with her when she shoots.

I think it is worth noting that:

a) shooting handloaded ammunition through just about any firearm will immediately void the factory warranty. Refer to the manufactures booklet/website to verify.

b) you can shoot lead bullets out of a Glock/HK all day, so long as you are using an aftermarket barrel with traditional rifling. I would not even think of shooting lead in a Polygonal bore.

YMMV

I have 2000 Rainer 147gr plated bullets I'm loading up.  I'm starting out with 4.5grs of #5.


Should I be worried about shooting these out of my new Ti-rant 9?  



I have Lone Wolf barrels on my G19 and G34.

I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to my loads and since Glock doesn't recommend reloads, I only run commercial through my Glock.  My 9mm reloading is strictly for my 9mm AR, which I shoot more than anything else.  

One of the many reasons I don't own a Glock. Thanks Smith...

-ZA

So here's a quick question in regards to plated bullets, I just grabbed some .357 158gr Berrys the other day to try in the wife's .357/38. I plan on using them in .38 spl cases what about the crimp? I have a Lee FCD and also hornady die with roll crimp that I usually use. How do you think I should crimp these? Or no crimp at all?

I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Another quick question:



If you use gas checks, does that eleminate the problem with lead in Glock barrels?

Very carefully worded, not bomb proofed though. Dillon October, 2006 ran a one page review of a book, highlighting Glocks in competition use. I can't say that I agree 100% with the NEVER x 3. Maybe never x 1. To use lead with ANY DEGREE OF SAFETY lead has to be a bhn of at least bhn18. This link is good insight as to the why ?

Dillon - October, 2006

Just another brush stroke on canvas, pictures starting to come together.

NO. Read Dillon link to understand more. There's lead you can use and lead you shouldn't use.

Note to the forum This thread will come full circle to original post. Some will say, " Oh, I get it." Some will say,  " But that's how I load."

Before you embarrass yourselves anymore than you have, go back and read original post. Emotion and Reason rarely mix.

Last paragraph, original post answers your question.

dc.

I made exceptions to one thread and framed the exceptions distinctly. Nowhere in plated exception does the word Glock appear. Since plated and Glock both appear in thread title it's become obvious assumptions were made.

To truly understand this thread you have to read links provided in full. I've had a conversation with Mr. Android. He graciously went back very early in this thread, prior to 7th post and made all links hot. Meaning, at the time of your first post all links were good.

Since your post another link was added. Be sure and read. As long as plating doesn't seperate your fine using both Berrys and Ranier. Remember these are soft cored bullets. I doubt bhn is above 12.

Regards,


dc.

Every gun manufacturer says that.  I shoot nothing but reloads except for 22LR



 

i have used plenty of precision moly bullets and missouri bullet compant lead bullets out of my glocks in 9/40/10 and 45. all are factory barrels. i do clean them a little sooner. maybe every 2-300 rounds. lately i have gone to precision delta for there full metal jackets since the price isnt that much more than moly or lead.

So, if I understand this correctly, the Dillon link states the issue is with leading and lead buildup that constricts the barrel and causes excessive pressure that results in a kaboom.



So, soft cast or swaged lead bullets with full power loads could be dangerous, but hard lead and lower power target loads along with a good, regular, cleaning regime SHOULD keep you out of trouble.



The problem I see is that the 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Sig and other high pressure loads could cause leading in certain barrels even with the above qualifiers.