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.303 reloading **fireforming results pg 4** (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/28/2012 4:08:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jnk556][Edited]
Ok, so I have lucked into a set of dies from the EE again Anyways, I'm going to load for the enfield in the future, but I don't have any .303 brass, but i do have 120rnds of Hotshot .303 ammo that will not shoot for shit in my rifle (it keyholes) I think it was loaded with the wrong kinda bullet, as I have a few boxes of the old SA .303 and it shoots great. as well as a few rounds of radway i used to have. All other ammo shoots fine but that hotshot.
Anyways, What would be the best way to pull down those 120 factory rounds, and replace the bullet?? I was thinking of just buying a collet puller, and seating new bullets, but the necks are crimped pretty good, and would probably need re-sized before I could load new bullets. So am I going to have to pull the bullets, toss the powder, and the primers, and start over?? Seems like a waste of good ammo..... Also, would IMR 4895 be a good powder for .303?? it's pretty much my go to powder for 30-06, and 7.7 jap, so i have some it handy. |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
Ok, so I have lucked into a set of dies from the EE again Anyways, I'm going to load for the enfield in the future, but I don't have any .303 brass, but i do have 120 rounds of Hotshot .303 ammo that will not shoot for shit in my rifle (it keyholes) I think it was loaded with the wrong kinda bullet, as I have a few boxes of the old SA .303 and it shoots great. as well as a few rounds of radway i used to have. All other ammo shoots fine but that hotshot.
Anyways, What would be the best way to pull down those 120 factory rounds, and replace the bullet?? I was thinking of just buying a collet puller, and seating new bullets, but the necks are crimped pretty good, and would probably need re-sized before I could load new bullets. So am I going to have to pull the bullets, toss the powder, and the primers, and start over?? Seems like a waste of good ammo..... Also, would IMR 4895 be a good powder for .303?? it's pretty much my go to powder for 30-06, and 7.7 jap, so i have some it handy. 1) I use a kinetic puller to pull milsurp 7.62x54R even in steel crimped cases. One thing you can do to make it easier is to break the crimp by pushing the bullet in a little first. 2) IMR-4895 should work fine in the .303 Brit. IMR-3031 was made for it though. |
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Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
Ok, so I have lucked into a set of dies from the EE again Anyways, I'm going to load for the enfield in the future, but I don't have any .303 brass, but i do have 120 rounds of Hotshot .303 ammo that will not shoot for shit in my rifle (it keyholes) I think it was loaded with the wrong kinda bullet, as I have a few boxes of the old SA .303 and it shoots great. as well as a few rounds of radway i used to have. All other ammo shoots fine but that hotshot.
Anyways, What would be the best way to pull down those 120 factory rounds, and replace the bullet?? I was thinking of just buying a collet puller, and seating new bullets, but the necks are crimped pretty good, and would probably need re-sized before I could load new bullets. So am I going to have to pull the bullets, toss the powder, and the primers, and start over?? Seems like a waste of good ammo..... Also, would IMR 4895 be a good powder for .303?? it's pretty much my go to powder for 30-06, and 7.7 jap, so i have some it handy. 1) I use a kinetic puller to pull milsurp 7.62x54R even in steel crimped cases. One thing you can do to make it easier is to break the crimp by pushing the bullet in a little first. 2) IMR-4895 should work fine in the .303 Brit. IMR-3031 was made for it though. I could try the kinetic puller, my arm may get tired doing 120rnds though 
EDIT: just took one down using the kinetic puller, and it was very easy, 3 wacks and it was done. Powder appears to be a fine extruded powder (who knows what the Bosnian's used) Bullet is a .310 diameter, boat tail, of the 180gr variety. Maybe this is why it keyholes, never saw a .303 shoot a boat tail?? |
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The Enfield used a early type hot burning double base cordite powder and if you have a worn barrel it will not like boat tail or Russian steel core bullets because they do not Obturate or expand when kicked in the seat of the pants and fill the bore when fired. I prefer any .312 flat base Hornady bullet and have always had good luck with them.
The best brass for the .303 Enfield is Privi Partizan, it is .010 thicker in the base web area, it has thicker rims and a larger base diameter than any American made cartridge case. Your biggest problem will be fireforming the cases and preventing stretching and thinning in the web area, with American cases and at the maximum headspace setting of .074 you can have approximately .016 head clearance and your cases will stretch badly when fired. 
A trick a Canadian taught me was to place a rubber o-ring around the case at the rim and then fireform the cases. The o-ring holds the case against the boltface and when compressed centers the rear of the case in the chamber. NOTE: In 1914 the Enfield chamber was enlarged in diameter and length to make room for the mud of Flanders fields (battlefield conditions) and the chamber does NOT conform to American SAAMI standards (longer and fatter) 
After fireforming the .303 case will then headspace on the shoulder with the base of the case resting against the bolt face. DO NOT use a full length resizing die as this will push the shoulder back approximately 1/8 of an inch too far which causes early case head separations. 
If you do not like the rubber o-ring method of fireforming you can create a false shoulder and fireform that way but this may increase neck splitting depending on the type brass used. 
I fireform the cases using .312 pistol bullets using SR4759 or Trail Boss powder. 
Below is a fired case in a Wilson case gauge, the amount the case is sticking above tha gauge is how much longer the military .303 chamber is than American SAAMI standards. 
And a case forming and file trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die to bump the shoulder back when the cases get to be tight fitting in the chamber when neck sizing only. 
Below a Prvi Partizan case and a Greek HXP case side by side, both were fired in the same No.4 Enfield and you can see how much thicker the Prvi case is and how little the base of the case expanded. 
Emergency war time headspace was .084 or .010 more than the .074 max headspace listed today, bolt heads are now very expensive and I would advise just fireforming the cases and not spending additional money chasing down longer bolt heads. The reason is simple, even with tight headspace the larger diameter chamber will allow the case to stretch outward and our small diameter American brass will stretch anyway. Bottom line proper fireforming is the key to long brass life on the Enfield rifle and I have gotten up to 32 reloadings from my cases. |
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
The Enfield used a early type hot burning double base cordite powder and if you have a worn barrel it will not like boat tail or Russian steel core bullets because they do not Obturate or expand when kicked in the seat of the pants and fill the bore when fired. I prefer any .312 flat base Hornady bullet and have always had good luck with them. The best brass for the .303 Enfield is Privi Partizan, it is .010 thicker in the base web area, it has thicker rims and a larger base diameter than any American made cartridge case. Your biggest problem will be fireforming the cases and preventing stretching and thinning in the web area, with American cases and at the maximum headspace setting of .074 you can have approximately .016 head clearance and your cases will stretch badly when fired. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch-1.gif A trick a Canadian taught me was to place a rubber o-ring around the case at the rim and then fireform the cases. The o-ring holds the case against the boltface and when compressed centers the rear of the case in the chamber. NOTE: In 1914 the Enfield chamber was enlarged in diameter and length to make room for the mud of Flanders fields (battlefield conditions) and the chamber does NOT conform to American SAAMI standards (longer and fatter) http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch_frame_0001.jpg After fireforming the .303 case will then headspace on the shoulder with the base of the case resting against the bolt face. DO NOT use a full length resizing die as this will push the shoulder back approximately 1/8 of an inch too far which causes early case head separations. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fireformed-zeroheadspace.jpg If you do not like the rubber o-ring method of fireforming you can create a false shoulder and fireform that way but this may increase neck splitting depending on the type brass used. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7189.jpg I fireform the cases using .312 pistol bullets using SR4759 or Trail Boss powder. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4691.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2717-a.jpg Below is a fired case in a Wilson case gauge, the amount the case is sticking above tha gauge is how much longer the military .303 chamber is than American SAAMI standards. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6321.jpg And a case forming and file trim die can be used as a shoulder bump die to bump the shoulder back when the cases get to be tight fitting in the chamber when neck sizing only. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7098.jpg Below a Prvi Partizan case and a Greek HXP case side by side, both were fired in the same No.4 Enfield and you can see how much thicker the Prvi case is and how little the base of the case expanded. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/privihxp.jpg Emergency war time headspace was .084 or .010 more than the .074 max headspace listed today, bolt heads are now very expensive and I would advise just fireforming the cases and not spending additional money chasing down longer bolt heads. The reason is simple, even with tight headspace the larger diameter chamber will allow the case to stretch outward and our small diameter American brass will stretch anyway. Bottom line proper fireforming is the key to long brass life on the Enfield rifle and I have gotten up to 32 reloadings from my cases. I think i got the jist of all that info, BTW, thanks for all that  BTW, what size of o-ring do I need??
So If i seat some new Sierra 180gr SP's in the virgin Hotshot brass (same as privi I think)I'm pulling down, and fire form the cases, then use my neck sizer, and just keep them trimmed to length I should be ok?? I'm pretty new to reloading, and first time loading anything rimmed so forgive me... |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
I think i got the jist of all that info, BTW, thanks for all that BTW, what size of o-ring do I need??
So If i seat some new Sierra 180gr SP's in the virgin Hotshot brass (same as privi I think)I'm pulling down, and fire form the cases, then use my neck sizer, and just keep them trimmed to length I should be ok?? I'm pretty new to reloading, and first time loading anything rimmed so forgive me... Use the smallest o-ring that will stretch over the case, the size will vary depending on headspace and rim thickness. I remove the extractor to keep it from nicking or cutting the o-ring and this also helps center the rear of the case in the oversized chamber. Do not use an o-ring that is too large that will cause hard bolt closing and remember to grease the back of your locking lugs to help prevent wear on the lugs. The Enfield rifle gets a bad rap for being hard on brass, rear locking lugs, weak action etc, when the real problem is thin undersized American brass that is not made for the Enfields oversized chamber by SAAMI standards. (Prvi Partizan brass is like Lake City 30-06 brass and is thicker) Below is a a factory loaded Winchester cartridge fired in an Enfield with tight SAAMI headspace setting (.066) or .002 over minimum headspace. The factory cartridge below stretched .009 in the base web area on the first firing. The case stretched to meet the bolt face and outward to meet the chamber walls, the o-ring method of fire forming would not have allowed this case to stretch. 
If you need more Enfield information go to Milsurps.com http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 and go to the "Lee Enfield On-line Knowledge Libraries (Index of Articles)" http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34880 and download the Enfield books and manuals, I donated 95% of the books and manuals you will find there on the Enfield rifle. |
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Thank you very much for all this info, it's great!!
I was looking at the info here here and it talks about the "o-ring method, but they used mono-filament (fishing line I think) instead of a o-ring. I have another question for you. My rifle has a #1 bolt head, and I do have a couple of the privi brass that have been once fired. Is there any way to take a unfired and compare those two, and figure how much my head space is, thus seeing how much the case has stretched?? I don't suppose just measuring case length would do?? I know a case gauge would really help me out I just ain't got one handy
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I generally don't use a bullet to fire form cases. Instead use a weight equivalent to about 10% of your normal/intended powder for the round, but use bullseye instead. Load the small charge (normally 4-6 grains) then add a small toilet paper wad on top pushing it down on the powder with a pencil, chopstick, shrimp skewer, etc. The fill the case with cream of wheat and hold it in place with another small TP wad at the end of the neck.
When you fire it, the cream of wheat moving forward and flowing out the case will bring the shoulder and neck out into full contact with the chamber. I've done this with .223 to 7mm TCU, .30-30 to .375 Winchester, 30-40 Krag to .40-50 Sharps and .30-06 to .35 Whelen. You'll get better results with more consistent necks if you hold the rifle vertically when you fire form, but that's likely to send the average range officer into orbit, so to do that you'll need a private spot to shoot. If you want to use a bullet and you are reloading, you can leave the bullet out far enough so that it solidly engraves in the rifling on closing the bolt, That results in the round head spacing on the bullet, holding the case firmly against the bolt face. Otherwise I agree, with military spec chambers you'll definitely want to use an o-ring to prevent the firing pin impact from driving the case forward on firing. |
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There are two other ways to check headspace on an Enfield and not use headspace gauges. One way is to place a new or full length resized case in the chamber and then insert feeler gauges between the right locking lug and receiver. Write down the feeler gauge measurment and then measure your rim thickness and then add the two measurments together and this will be your headspas reading.
The second way to check headspace is to use an unfired or full length resized case and a fired spent primer. 
First measure the length of a new or resized .303 case and write it down. 
Now just using your fingers start a primer in the primer pocket. 
Now carefully chamber this test case and slowly close the bolt and seat the primer, now remove the case and measure the case again and write it down. Now subtract the first case measurement from the second and this will give you the primer protrusion or head clearance, this is the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. The primer will be above the base of the case and sticking out like below and this is what you are measuring. 
Next measure your rim thickness and write it down. 
Now add your primer protrusion measurment to your rim thickness and you will have your headspace reading. Example 
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I've fire formed cases with Bullseye and TP only no fillers. The TP does lay on the ground afterwards.
I have several plinker loads that my boys and I shoot that use Unique and a "light for caliber bullet" one example of which is a 100gr short jacket in 30-30 or .308 Win. I use 12gr Unique in the 30-30. I have used from 9 to 15gr in the .308 Win. The 15gr load is very accurate. You could use Unique and the .312 pistol bullet in the .303 Brit. If you stay between 10 and 14gr it should work fine. Be VERY CAREFULL not to double charge. |
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
There are two other ways to check headspace on an Enfield and not use headspace gauges. One way is to place a new or full length resized case in the chamber and then insert feeler gauges between the right locking lug and receiver. Write down the feeler gauge measurment and then measure your rim thickness and then add the two measurments together and this will be your headspas reading. The second way to check headspace is to use an unfired or full length resized case and a fired spent primer. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0704.jpg First measure the length of a new or resized .303 case and write it down. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0710.jpg Now just using your fingers start a primer in the primer pocket. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0706.jpg Now carefully chamber this test case and slowly close the bolt and seat the primer, now remove the case and measure the case again and write it down. Now subtract the first case measurement from the second and this will give you the primer protrusion or head clearance, this is the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. The primer will be above the base of the case and sticking out like below and this is what you are measuring. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/9-2.jpg Next measure your rim thickness and write it down. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0727.jpg Now add your primer protrusion measurment to your rim thickness and you will have your headspace reading. Example http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hspace-b.gif Thanks, I'll try the primer seating method, and see what I get. As for fire forming, I really don't know what I'm going to do, seems like alot of work just to fire form a case. |
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As for fire forming, I really don't know what I'm going to do, seems like a lot of work just to fire form a case.[/quote]
Fire forming loads can be fun to shoot too. I bet the .312 pistol bullet with fire forming load would be a great practice load. When my boy was 7 to 8 years old I trained him to shoot my .308 bolt action deer rifle using the 100gr short jacket loaded with Unique. This training paid off his first season (8 years old) he took 2 deer with the rifle using my full power 150gr SP loads. One was a 8 point buck. My 22-6mm Ackley Improved fire forming load uses 12gr Unique and a 55gr FMJ. This "fire forming" load has shot 1" groups at 100 yards. |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
If you want to use a bullet and you are reloading, you can leave the bullet out far enough so that it solidly engraves in the rifling on closing the bolt, That results in the round head spacing on the bullet, holding the case firmly against the bolt face. On a "normal" rifle I will seat my bullets long and jamb them into the rifling to fireform the cases, BUT the majority of Enfield rifles will have throat erosion from shooting Cordite powder and even if you seat your bullets backwards they will not touch the rifling and this method will not work. Second, American made .303 brass has a small base diameter and the diameter of the chamber is much larger than normal. What happens with American made cases when chambered is they "lay" at the bottom of the chamber and when fired they will expand more on one side than the other. This will cause a warped banana shaped case with the base of the case out of alignment with axis of the bore and cause bigger group sizes. Below is an example, this was a factory loaded Winchester .303 case that was not fireformed and was reloaded three times, as you can see the case was going to seperate on the next firing. Please take notice the the crack is on an angle and this case is warped and the base of the case is no longer 90 degrees to the axis of the bore. By using the o-ring method I have gotten over 32 reloadings from my .303 cases and have never had any case head separations. 
By using the rubber o-ring when it is compressed on bolt closing it centers the case in the rear of the chamber and when fired you get equal case expansion and better case alignment when reloading. You must remember the Enfield chamber was enlarged in the first year of WWI because of the terrible dirty and muddy conditions of trench warfare to ensure a cartridge would chamber and fire. When you chamber an American made .303 cartridge case in a British Enfield rifle it is like parking a Smart car in a blimp hangar and you have a lot of excess room to spare. As you can see below American manufactures don't even know where to put the shoulder of the case. 
Below South African military .303 ammunition with the shoulder of the case in the correct location. 
In a nut shell if we could get heavy duty .303 cases made at Lake City the Enfield would be much easer to reload for. Don't blame the Enfield rifle for cartridge cases that are not made to British mil-spec standards. |
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Originally Posted By Motor1:
Fire forming loads can be fun to shoot too. I bet the .312 pistol bullet with fire forming load would be a great practice load. When my boy was 7 to 8 years old I trained him to shoot my .308 bolt action deer rifle using the 100gr short jacket loaded with Unique. This training paid off his first season (8 years old) he took to deer with the rifle using my full power 150gr SP loads. One was a 8 point buck. My 22-6mm Ackley Improved fire forming load uses 12gr Unique and a 55gr FMJ. This "fire forming" load has shot 1" groups at 100 yards. Motor1 Below is a 50 yard group firing the .312 pistol bullets, you can shoot all day long and not get a sore shoulder from the metal butt plate.
And its more fun than just making noise using COW. 
Below is a 50 yard 10 shot group after proper fireforming the cases and having a tight fitting and properly bedded fore stock. 
Below the same Enfield with a PH-5C rear target sight added at 50 yards, not bad from a well worn 1943 No.4 Mk.1 
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And when fire forming cases DO NOT oil or grease you cartridge cases, it will double your bolt thrust and posibly damage your rifle.
Below is from the British "Textbook of Small Arms" printed in 1929 
When the Enfield was proof tested an oiled proof round was used to seat the bolt lugs to the reciever, it was then checked for headspace and if the headspace increased .003 or more the rifle failed proofing. Second, the British used a different method of measuring chamber pressure and the copper crusher was located at the base of the case and the firing pin went through the copper crusher. If the case was not oiled during testing the copper crusher would only receive half the bolt thrust and not get a proper chamber pressure reading. Bottom line, a cartridge case is designed to grip the chamber walls and deliver half the force to the bolt face. 
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Ok, so it looks like I'm gonna end up using the .312 pistol bullets then. I'll either have to pick some up on-line, or at the fun show, as the LGS don't have shit for reloading, except powder I'll have to get a small thing of unique too I recon.
Damn this is going to cost me lots of money for what I thought was going to be a simple process... I need to find out what kinda head space I'm looking at first though, so I can find some o-rings.... Oh damn what have you guys talked me into 
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Originally Posted By big p51:
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Fire forming loads can be fun to shoot too. I bet the .312 pistol bullet with fire forming load would be a great practice load. When my boy was 7 to 8 years old I trained him to shoot my .308 bolt action deer rifle using the 100gr short jacket loaded with Unique. This training paid off his first season (8 years old) he took to deer with the rifle using my full power 150gr SP loads. One was a 8 point buck. My 22-6mm Ackley Improved fire forming load uses 12gr Unique and a 55gr FMJ. This "fire forming" load has shot 1" groups at 100 yards. Motor1 Below is a 50 yard group firing the .312 pistol bullets, you can shoot all day long and not get a sore shoulder from the metal butt plate.
And its more fun than just making noise using COW. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/100grainplinker.jpg Below is a 50 yard 10 shot group after proper fire forming the cases and having a tight fitting and properly bedded fore stock. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/range-day-target.jpg Below the same Enfield with a PH-5C rear target sight added at 50 yards, not bad from a well worn 1943 No.4 Mk.1 http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/range-day-2-1.jpg Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Those of us who really like to shoot our milsurp rifles (a lot) take it to the next level. We cast our own bullets and shoot them sub-sonic as well as super-sonic (my super sonic loads are 15 to 18 hundred f/s.) By far our favorite load is the sub-sonic cast 160gr from the 7.62x54R. My boys and I shoot against each other, off hand at a 50 yard pistol swinger (designed for up to 44mag). It is great fun and great practice. Plus we get to shoot our favorite old war horses without the all the recoil and without further eroding the already worn throats in some of the rifles. 
I have a photo of a target we shot with the sub-sonic load. I'll see if I can post it. The multi dot target was fired at 50 yards with the sub-sonic load. The target with "16" and "17" was fired during load testing. That is 16gr Unique and 17gr Unique. You can see the group starting to open up with the 17gr load. The 16gr load shoots the 160gr cast bullet at 1850 f/s. This was also fired at 50 yards. The rimmed ammo is 54R. The far left is PPU case reloaded with Czech components. The far right is one of the steel Czech cases loaded with my 160gr cast bullet sub-sonic load. The other photo with rimless case: Far left is a 6mm Rem. loaded with 75gr V-Max. The right side is the fire formed then loaded 22-6mm. The 2 bullets are .224 75gr A-Max and .244 75gr V-Max |
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I picked up a pound of Unique at a area fun shop (got reamed at $30 but oh well) Now I'll have to find some of the .32 bullets. Seem rare as hens teeth round these parts.
Oh, and I still need to get o-rings, and suggestion, Ace, Tractor Supply?? |
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I've used 90 gr .311 diameter cast lead bullets intended for a .30 Luger bullets for gallery type loads in Lee Enfields - as well as in a 30 carbine.
McMaster-Carr will sell you o-rings pretty cheap. You can get 100 packs of 011 or 012 0-rings for $2.11. Even with shipping it's a lot cheaper than the hardware store. |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
I've used 90 gr .311 diameter cast lead bullets intended for a .30 Luger bullets for gallery type loads in Lee Enfields - as well as in a 30 carbine. McMaster-Carr will sell you o-rings pretty cheap. You can get 100 packs of 011 or 012 0-rings for $2.11. Even with shipping it's a lot cheaper than the hardware store. Thank you a bunch. I'll check out McMaster-Carr for the O-rings. Just as long as they are .311-.312 diameter and around 100gr I should be GTG on fire forming bullets correct? I have looked at the Hornady's that were posted above, as they are about $16 a box on Midway, never looked into cast bullets.... Like I said I'm checking the funshow next Sunday first... |
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Just want to check, if I use the 100gr .312 pistol bullets, and the Unique pistol powder, I'm not gonna need a filler in the case am I?? I'm not thinking I will, but then again I have never dealt with something like this either
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Yes. You could use any .310 to .312 bullet in the 90 to 100gr area or up to 220gr cast. Don't feel too bad about the price of the Unique. You will find many uses for it and a pound will go a long way.
How many cases do you need to fire form? |
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Originally Posted By Motor1:
Yes. You could use any .310 to .312 bullet in the 90 to 100gr area or up to 220gr cast. Don't feel too bad about the price of the Unique. You will find many uses for it and a pound will go a long way. How many cases do you need to fire form? Roughly about 120. I have some old Hotshot ammo that was loaded with the 180gr BT. I'm going to take them down, dump the powder (I may use it later, I recorded the charges as I broke them down) and fire form them. I may try a few without bullets, and use cocoa wheat, and I could seal it with some beeswax that should work correct? |
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| I'm not in favor of putting anything in a case other than powder. That's just me. Like I stated earlier, I've used toilet paper and Bullseye before. Unique is a little slower than Bullseye but you could try it. Really for what you need to do I don't know why a cheep .308 bullet would not work. |
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Originally Posted By Motor1:
I'm not in favor of putting anything in a case other than powder. That's just me. Like I stated earlier, I've used toilet paper and Bullseye before. Unique is a little slower than Bullseye but you could try it. Really for what you need to do I don't know why a cheep .308 bullet would not work. Yeah, I'll just hit up the funshow and see what i come up with, and go from there, bound to find something. |
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Ok, I got around to checking my headspace in the Enfield.
Re-sized case length: 2.225 Re-sized case with primer seated partially to obtain "airspace" 2.247 Rim thickness: .60 2.247-2.225=.022+.60= TOTAL HEADSPACE .622 So does that sound ok?? I'm getting ready to order some o-rings from McMaster-Carr, which ones should I get, 011, or 012?? |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
Ok, I got around to checking my headspace in the Enfield. Re-sized case length: 2.225 Re-sized case with primer seated partially to obtain "airspace" 2.247 Rim thickness: .60 2.247-2.225=.022+.60= TOTAL HEADSPACE .622 So does that sound ok?? I'm getting ready to order some o-rings from McMaster-Carr, which ones should I get, 011, or 012?? That's a little thick for .303 British case rims. |
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Your rim thickness is not over 1/2 of an inch or .600 it is .060, your primer protrusion was .022 therefore your headspace is .082 and way over maximum.
Enfield military headspace .064 minimum .074 maximum American SAAMI headspace .064 GO (minimum) .067 NO GO (maximum) .071 Field Maximum You have .022 head clearance or air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face and "NO" commercial cartridge case was ever designed to be reloaded after being fired with that much excess headspace. You need a larger bolt head to decrease headspace "OR" use the rubber o-ring when fire forming cases and keep your pressures way below rated chamber pressure of 46,000 cup or 49,000 psi. Depending on your make cartridge case you could have case head separations on the first firing. RECHECK your measurments with a three to five times average. I did not check your math in your IM and when I read your post here I saw the error, disreguard my IM, your headspace is NOT .622, it is .082 and over maximum. NOTE: Emergency wartime headspace was allowed to go to .084 "BUT" you will not find this in print anywhere. Question, does your bolt S/N match the receiver and what is the number on your bolt head (1, 2 or 3) Also note the last batch of No.4 Enfield rifles came from Turkey and never had a British or Commonwealth armourer even touch these rifles. Originally Posted By jnk556:
Ok, I got around to checking my headspace in the Enfield. Re-sized case length: 2.225 Re-sized case with primer seated partially to obtain "airspace" 2.247 Rim thickness: .60 2.247-2.225=.022+.60= TOTAL HEADSPACE .622 So does that sound ok?? I'm getting ready to order some o-rings from McMaster-Carr, which ones should I get, 011, or 012?? |
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I see my mistake i'll remeasure tonight, and get it right. I'm not positive .060 is even right. I was in a hurry so....
The numbers match on the gun, and it has a #1 bolt head |
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Ok, remeasured.
Case length: 2.210 Rim: .058 Case with primer 2.227 Headspace: 0.075 Still too damn big. I don't understand how it could be so bad. The rifle is a 10/43 dated ROF(F) no.4 mk.1 All the numbers match, and it has a #1 bolt head. I've fired 100 or so rounds since I've owned it, and never had any problems. I've owned it about 5 years and I bought it from a guy on surplusrifle boards who claimed he used to load for it and shoot matches. All original except the stock has been refinished. So, what bolt head do I need, and is it possible to even find one? Should I just throw the damn thing back in the safe
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That was the original intent.
So I guess I'm still GTG on that then? I still need to pick up some o-rings, and the .32 cal pistol bullets.... EDIT: just ordered some 012 o-rings from Mcmaster-Carr
Question, my headspace is too big as we go right now, which way would you have to go to make it a bit better, up or down in bolt heads?? I have found some #0 bolt heads around the web.... |
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One more check for your bolt head, and that is over rotation.
You do not want the bolt head to rotate more than below. 
Below the over rotation is so bad the bolt and bolt head had to be replaced. 
Once the bolt head rotates past 20 degrees the threads in the bolt and bolt head start taking the pounding when fired instead of the mating surfaces of the bolt body and bolt head. Below when the bolt is in battery and ready to fire the two mating surfaces are not touching and then the threads get hammered and can cause the bolt to jam. 
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
One more check for your bolt head, and that is over rotation. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/overturnmax.jpg You do not want the bolt head to rotate more than below. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP2170.jpg Below the over rotation is so bad the bolt and bolt head had to be replaced. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/overtravel.jpg Once the bolt head rotates past 20 degrees the threads in the bolt and bolt head start taking the pounding when fired instead of the mating surfaces of the bolt body and bolt head. Below when the bolt is in battery and ready to fire the two mating surfaces are not touching and then the threads get hammered and can cause the bolt to jam. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gap.jpg I think I'm ok there. It's not as good as your top pic, but no where near as bad as the bottom pic. I measured, and it's out exactly 3/16" |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
That was the original intent. So I guess I'm still GTG on that then? I still need to pick up some o-rings, and the .32 cal pistol bullets.... EDIT: just ordered some 012 o-rings from Mcmaster-Carr
Question, my headspace is too big as we go right now, which way would you have to go to make it a bit better, up or down in bolt heads?? I have found some #0 bolt heads around the web.... If you can get the Enfeld to shoot accurately I have some spare bolt heads, what you need is a No. 2 or No.3 bolt head, each higher number bolt head is approximately .003 longer. "IF" your rifle does not have bolt head over rotation I would leave it alone and not worry about the headspace reading you have and I would use Prvi Partizan or Greek HXP brass. On my main Enfield shooter I have two bolt heads fitted depending on the type brass and rim thickness, a No.1 and No.2 bolt head. 
The photos below are from a 1946 Australian book "Competitive Rifle Shooting" by the National Champion Jim Sweet 
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Got the o-rings in today, still need to order up the Hornady pistol bullets.
Will update when I get it all ready to load up to fire form. |
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Ok, got the 2 boxes of Hornady .32 pistol bullets I ordered.
Need some info on the fire forming rounds, like COL, and charge weight for Unique. I think I saw previously between 10gr and 14gr of Unique, but I've never done this before, so i don't know exactly what I should shoot for..... |
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I'm not a big fan of pistol powders in rifle cases because the powder has too much room to move around and be position sensitive. Shooting at the bench you can tilt the barrel upward and get the powder in the rear of the case for better uniformity BUT when small game hunting this can be forgotten and accuracy can go out the window.
I prefer using SR4759 as it was designed for reduced loads and fills the case better, second is Trail Boss followed by reduced loads of 4895. With any of these three powders it is impossible to have a double charge without the case overflowing and are in my opinion safer to use. Also remember your headspace measurement of .075 using the primer method is not as accurate as having headspace gauges and it could pass a .074 headspace gauge test. Meaning don't worry about it, your a perfect candidate for using the o-ring method of fire forming. Also note an armourer would not replace the bolt head unless the rifle failed the maximum of .074. 
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I'm not a big fan of pistol powders in rifle cases because the powder has too much room to move around and be position sensitive. Shooting at the bench you can tilt the barrel upward and get the powder in the rear of the case for better uniformity BUT when small game hunting this can be forgotten and accuracy can go out the window.
I prefer using SR4759 as it was designed for reduced loads and fills the case better, second is Trail Boss followed by reduced loads of 4895. With any of these three powders it is impossible to have a double charge without the case overflowing and are in my opinion safer to use. Also remember your headspace measurement of .075 using the primer method is not as accurate as having headspace gauges and it could pass a .074 headspace gauge test. Meaning don't worry about it, your a perfect candidate for using the o-ring method of fire forming. Also note an armourer would not replace the bolt head unless the rifle failed the maximum of .074.
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
I'm not a big fan of pistol powders in rifle cases because the powder has too much room to move around and be position sensitive. Shooting at the bench you can tilt the barrel upward and get the powder in the rear of the case for better uniformity BUT when small game hunting this can be forgotten and accuracy can go out the window. I prefer using SR4759 as it was designed for reduced loads and fills the case better, second is Trail Boss followed by reduced loads of 4895. With any of these three powders it is impossible to have a double charge without the case overflowing and are in my opinion safer to use. Also remember your headspace measurement of .075 using the primer method is not as accurate as having headspace gauges and it could pass a .074 headspace gauge test. Meaning don't worry about it, your a perfect candidate for using the o-ring method of fire forming. Also note an armourer would not replace the bolt head unless the rifle failed the maximum of .074. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Can-update_Page_1_Image_0001.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/canheadspace.jpg http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/No4Mk1Arm_Page_56.jpg Great so I bought a pound of Unique for nothing then  I'm not using these pistol bullets for anything but fire forming, and I don't really care about their accuracy, I just want the cases fire formed, so I can neck size and get on with loading proper .303 rounds.
Only other powder I have handy is IMR4895, so if you could suggest a fireforming load for that.... I have the o-rings, and I plan to use them, headspace be damned
Also COL for the Hornady XTP 100gr bullets? I just need raw data, some numbers to put in to make these fire forming rounds, charge weights, and bullet depths... |
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jnk556
You can use the o-ring method with factory loaded .303 ammunition or your hotter loads and new cases and you do not need to reduce the loading to fireform them. I use reduced loads because I might fire form 100 to 200 rounds at a time and this way not have the metal butt plate punish my shoulder. Many of the Canadian Enfield shooters use between 37 to 38 grains of 4895 and a 150 grain bullet that gives them a velocity that matches the rear sight elevations and it is a mild load. |
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
jnk556 You can use the o-ring method with factory loaded .303 ammunition or your hotter loads and new cases and you do not need to reduce the loading to fireform them. I use reduced loads because I might fire form 100 to 200 rounds at a time and this way not have the metal butt plate punish my shoulder. Many of the Canadian Enfield shooters use between 37 to 38 grains of 4895 and a 150 grain bullet that gives them a velocity that matches the rear sight elevations and it is a mild load. Got ya. I didn't quite understand I could use full power loads with the o-ring method. I have approx 120rnds of boat tail Hotshot I need to breakdown, and change bullets in. Is there any way I could still use some of the pistol bullets with 4895?? Maybe drop the charge even lower, so like you said I won't need a ice pack for my shoulder
Oh, and since I won't have my extractor while using the o ring method, what's the best way to pop the cases out of the chamber, my knife???
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
The Hodgdons website has reduced H4895 loads listed and uses the 60% rule for loading. You can remove a fired .303 case with your fingernail and a "flick" of your finger. (Remember you have a "fat" chamber and a skinny case) Forgive my ignorance, what is the 60% rule? |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
The Hodgdon's website has reduced H4895 loads listed and uses the 60% rule for loading. You can remove a fired .303 case with your fingernail and a "flick" of your finger. (Remember you have a "fat" chamber and a skinny case) Forgive my ignorance, what is the 60% rule? If your caliber has data for H4895 you can use 60% of the listed max charge weight. It goes on to say that you can reduce that by another 10% but no more. Go to the Hodgdon web site and read it. Your original plan to use the pistol bullets and Unique is a good one. Just be careful not to double charge. That is the only draw back to loading like this. My pistol powder driven rifle ammo is very accurate and reliable. Many guys compete in military surplus rifle matches using pistol powder driven loads. Wildcatters have been fire forming brass this way for years too. |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
Originally Posted By bigedp51:
The Hodgdons website has reduced H4895 loads listed and uses the 60% rule for loading. You can remove a fired .303 case with your fingernail and a "flick" of your finger. (Remember you have a "fat" chamber and a skinny case) Forgive my ignorance, what is the 60% rule? Hodgdon® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS for Youth Hunting, Informal Target and Plinking H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet weight shown. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf As I stated earlier, I use SR4759 and the 100 grain pistol bullets and it works very well. If you want to play with other powders go ahead but get some reloading manuals with data for reduced loads. Just pick a bullet and powder and stay with a powder that nearly fills the case and has a good loading density and be safe with reduced loads. A double charge of pistol powder in any rifle is asking for trouble and could exceed the pressure of a proof cartridge and damage your rifle and "YOU". SR 4759 "This bulky handgun powder works great in the magnums, but really shines as a reduced load propellant for rifle cartridges. It's large grain size gives good loading density for reduced loads, enhancing velocity uniformity." |
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This whole thing is starting to make my head hurt. If I knew it was going to be this big of a pain to do all this I'd have left the rifle in the safe
Sorry if I seem confused, I'm new to all this, I mean if I have data for x type of bullet in front of me using a certain powder that's fine, but I haven't dealt with this stuff long enough to experiment like this. I could mess something up, and not even know it. I was told 10-14gr of Unique, and the pistol bullets would be fine, now I'm getting this reduced data info, the longer I go the more confused I get. So if I use the Unique (No way I'll double charge, I load all rounds up by hand, no measure) and use the pistol bullets all will be ok? What kinda COL do I need to go with the pistol bullets?? Sorry if I seem so dense, like I said I'm new to all this. |
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Originally Posted By jnk556:
This whole thing is starting to make my head hurt. If I knew it was going to be this big of a pain to do all this I'd have left the rifle in the safe
Sorry if I seem confused, I'm new to all this, I mean if I have data for x type of bullet in front of me using a certain powder that's fine, but I haven't dealt with this stuff long enough to experiment like this. I could mess something up, and not even know it. I was told 10-14gr of Unique, and the pistol bullets would be fine, now I'm getting this reduced data info, the longer I go the more confused I get. So if I use the Unique (No way I'll double charge, I load all rounds up by hand, no measure) and use the pistol bullets all will be ok? What kinda COL do I need to go with the pistol bullets?? Sorry if I seem so dense, like I said I'm new to all this. 1. You have a Enfield rifle that used Cordite powder which caused throat erosion, you are also asking about COL. The COL will depend on the condition of your throat on your rifle, meaning a brand new Enfield will have a shorter throat than a well used Enfield rifle. For your reduced loads with pistol bullets take a fired case and bump it in a sizing die so the neck will just hold a bullet in place. Just start a bullet in the neck of the case with a seating die, now chamber this test round and see if the bullet is pushed back into the case when the case is chambered and again measure the OAL length and adjust your seating depth accordingly. 2. I do not like small pistol powder loads and prefer to have the case at over 80% loading density, so make up your mind who's posting your going to go with and you head won't hurt. 3. Get a Lyman reloading manual and look at the loads listed and you won't be as confused. 4. Who told you about .312 pistol bullets and SR4759 powder for fire forming the .303 British cartridge with an o-ring and what is confusing about this information and preventing the case from stretching in the web area on the first firing. 5. The Speer reloading manuals lists reduced loads with SR4759 with the .303 British with 100 and 150 grain bullets. 6. You can NOT overcharge a case using SR4759 powder, BUT you can over charge a case with Unique and other pistol powders. If you are careful you can shoot for cheaper using these smaller position sensitive loads but be careful. 7. Pick a bullet, pick a powder, load your cases and go shooting, end of story...................... |
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Originally Posted By bigedp51:
Originally Posted By jnk556:
This whole thing is starting to make my head hurt. If I knew it was going to be this big of a pain to do all this I'd have left the rifle in the safe
Sorry if I seem confused, I'm new to all this, I mean if I have data for x type of bullet in front of me using a certain powder that's fine, but I haven't dealt with this stuff long enough to experiment like this. I could mess something up, and not even know it. I was told 10-14gr of Unique, and the pistol bullets would be fine, now I'm getting this reduced data info, the longer I go the more confused I get. So if I use the Unique (No way I'll double charge, I load all rounds up by hand, no measure) and use the pistol bullets all will be ok? What kinda COL do I need to go with the pistol bullets?? Sorry if I seem so dense, like I said I'm new to all this. 1. You have a Enfield rifle that used Cordite powder which caused throat erosion, you are also asking about COL. The COL will depend on the condition of your throat on your rifle, meaning a brand new Enfield will have a shorter throat than a well used Enfield rifle. For your reduced loads with pistol bullets take a fired case and bump it in a sizing die so the neck will just hold a bullet in place. Just start a bullet in the neck of the case with a seating die, now chamber this test round and see if the bullet is pushed back into the case when the case is chambered and again measure the OAL length and adjust your seating depth accordingly. 2. I do not like small pistol powder loads and prefer to have the case at over 80% loading density, so make up your mind who's posting your going to go with and you head won't hurt. 3. Get a Lyman reloading manual and look at the loads listed and you won't be as confused. 4. Who told you about .312 pistol bullets and SR4759 powder for fire forming the .303 British cartridge with an o-ring and what is confusing about this information and preventing the case from stretching in the web area on the first firing. 5. The Speer reloading manuals lists reduced loads with SR4759 with the .303 British with 100 and 150 grain bullets. 6. You can NOT overcharge a case using SR4759 powder, BUT you can over charge a case with Unique and other pistol powders. If you are careful you can shoot for cheaper using these smaller position sensitive loads but be careful. 7. Pick a bullet, pick a powder, load your cases and go shooting, end of story...................... I don't disagree with your advice at all but none of my Bullseye, Unique, or 2400 loads are "position sensitive". I have fired hundreds of 7.62x54R loaded with only 6gr of bullseye and have never had a single issue. The same goes for the other 3 powders I listed. I also agree if the OP is not sure he should definitely go the safe rout. Trail Boss is another that is safe to use. OP, If you load the pistol bullets, load them to the canalure. I doubt they will even come close to the lands but you can check that easy enough. |
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Ok, since I have a pound of Unique, and the pistol bullets, I think I'll go that route. Like I said all of these will be loaded one at a time, and will be checked several times, so a double charge is not likely. I'll load up about 20rnds at first, and take them up to the quarry on the mtn. to test, and if all goes ok, will load the rest up, and fireform. As far as seating I'll try the method to hit the throat, but if for some reason that doesn't turn out, I'll just seat to the canalure, or near it depending on what I find.....
I'll update when I get a chance to work them up. Right now I'm still processing a big batch of .308 brass, so it may be a few days.... |
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Originally Posted By Motor1:
I don't disagree with your advice at all but none of my Bullseye, Unique, or 2400 loads are "position sensitive". I have fired hundreds of 7.62x54R loaded with only 6gr of bullseye and have never had a single issue. The same goes for the other 3 powders I listed. I also agree if the OP is not sure he should definitely go the safe rout. Trail Boss is another that is safe to use. OP, If you load the pistol bullets, load them to the canalure. I doubt they will even come close to the lands but you can check that easy enough. "position sensitive" is why they use COW, dacron fillers, toilet paper and other methods to hold the powder next to the primer in the rear of the case. These methods are explained in reloading manuals and you can't get uniformity if one shot has the powder laying next to the primer and the next is in the front of the case. This can be tested by simply tilting the cartridge cases up and down and watching for vertical stringing with the position of the powder in the case. Second, the OP has already used the words "confused" and "head hurts" from all the information he has been given and is having information overload. I listed three powders to use to keep things simple, SR4759, Trail Boss and 4895, all of which can not be double charged with loads at approximately 80% of case capacity. (load density) KISS = keep it simple stupid |
.303 reloading **fireforming results pg 4** (Page 1 of 2)
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