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Deuce01
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Posted: 1/12/2012 8:04:14 AM
[Last Edit: 1/12/2012 8:06:30 AM by Deuce01]
Did transferable factory Commandos/Carbines have bayo lugs intact or neutered?
Circuits
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Posted: 1/12/2012 11:37:37 AM
Originally Posted By Deuce01:
Did transferable factory Commandos/Carbines have bayo lugs intact or neutered?


Factory MGs have never been neutered.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
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Deuce01
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Posted: 1/12/2012 7:50:09 PM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Originally Posted By Deuce01:
Did transferable factory Commandos/Carbines have bayo lugs intact or neutered?


Factory MGs have never been neutered.


Thanks Circuits.

tgus
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Posted: 1/12/2012 8:15:57 PM
My factory commando has no bayonet lug.
Circuits
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Posted: 1/12/2012 8:57:44 PM
Originally Posted By tgus:
My factory commando has no bayonet lug.


Factory MGs have *rarely* been neutered, then. As with most things Colt, I guess you can never say never to any particular weird configuration.
"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
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leid
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Posted: 3/8/2012 3:16:22 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 2:23:35 PM by leid]
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Originally Posted By tgus:
My factory commando has no bayonet lug.


Factory MGs have *rarely* been neutered, then. As with most things Colt, I guess you can never say never to any particular weird configuration.



It is a bit disappointing to see that the current knowledge base here has not corrected the above statement. Kudos to tgus for adding his credible information. Post pics of your COMMANDO when you have time. I truly enjoy looking at the first generation Colt AR-15s.They are works of art IMO. Here is my information based on 44 years of experience with the AR15/M16 platform. With Colt there are ALWAYS exceptions but there are guidelines. One of which follows & is very important when it comes to identifying genuine transferables from the earliest CAR-15 series thru the M4 series 10.0" & 11.5" carbines manufactured prior to the advent of the 10.3" MK18 carbine/upper/barrel. A factory Colt 10.0" or 11.5" Carbine/upper/barrel should normally have a SHAVED bayo lug as shown on the original factory Colt 10.0" & 11.5" M4 uppers below. The only non factory original Colt parts pictured are the CCH BUIS & the FH on the 10" M4 upper. If you come across an "all original" 10" or 11.5" Colt Carbine/upper/barrel with a standard bayo lug, your BS filter had better be working to figure out what you are actually looking at. Unfortunately, Colt violated this guideline with the MK18/694X series. Some genuine factory Colt MK18/694X series carbines/uppers/barrels have bayo lugs and some do not. This caveat had us scratching out heads until several current U.S. military guys shed some light on this. The information they provided is that the Colt 10.3" carbines/uppers/barrels ordered for Uncle Sam are ordered WITH a full bayo lug. This requirement may be an effort towards better parts commonality. The Colt 10.3" carbines/uppers/barrels manufactured for LE may or may not have a bayo lug. When I look at a DOD MK18, I now expect to see an intact bayo lug. And I have not been disappointed YET. But in time, Colt will throw us another curve. They already have but that does not apply to this thread. FWIW.


Top-Bottom: ALL COLT 1x7 twist: first generation flat-top 14.5" M4A1 dated 12/00, 1985 14.5" M16A2 (Vietnam era CH Colt Harvey marked M16A1 upper receiver with tear drop FA), early 2000s 11.5" M4, & early 2000s 10.0" M4



Current factory Colt 6946 10.3" upper with bayo lug on pre-'86 early 800 series transferable "ghostly gray" Colt M16A2 lower FOIA says was manufactured 05/85:



I am not an NFA newbie having registered my 1st NFA in the '68 Amnesty. Here is the oldest NFA COLT assault rifle I currently own. It was manufactured by COLT during WW1 then spent WW2 in the hands of the British almost certainly in the hands of the British Home Guard. The original COLT "slim-jim" barrel is dated 10/18. FOIA says this U.S. MODEL of M1918 BMR was re-imported into the U.S. and entered into the NFA registry in 1958 (not the 1968 Amnesty). It is very hard to believe but this WW1 COLT first generation C&R assault rifle is now approaching 100 years old:

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tgus
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Posted: 3/9/2012 8:46:40 AM
Leid,

Thanks for the information. Here are a couple pics of my Commando. It left Colt in 1971 and the moderator was registered in 1974.


All of my shorties only the factory 9mm has the bayonet lug.
leid
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Posted: 3/9/2012 11:06:47 AM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 2:22:49 PM by leid]
tgus,
You are absolutely correct. Every 10.5" Colt 9MM SMG I have seen had a full bayo lug. I saw quite a few of them while working in Cali & Bogota for several years.
Thanks for the pics of your Colt COMMANDO; VERY nice indeed. I now regret not buying Colt COMMANDO s/n 4,574,612 when it came up for sale a few years back. But I was working out a fair price with a judge on his PROPERTY OF U.S. GOVT. marked Colt COMMANDO. The judge up and died before money changed hands. I mistakenly thought the judge's estate would eventually sell it to me but the judge's son wanted it. Just my bad luck as usual.

Carey

Pic below is from the sales ad for Colt COMMANDO 4,574,612: some of the arf "experts" kept talking trash about it but it was made virtually the same time as yours. It had Buddy Hinton drooling; he had passed on one of Bob Miller's early CAR-15 series model 607s many years before. I made an offer on one of Bob's early 606s but he turned me down. Eventually wound up with a model 741 which has been a great rifle. Don't know who finally bought this one, but they got a VERY nice COMMANDO at a reasonable price IMO. Was happy when it sold. Every time I drove thru the Baton Rouge area, I had to resist calling to see it. Wish I had especially when the price was reduced.

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tgus
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Posted: 3/9/2012 2:46:47 PM
Thanks! Too bad you didn't get the PROPERTY OF U.S. GOVT. marked Colt COMMANDO, that would be the one to have even better then a 607 I think.

I have an early 606 that came from Bob Miller collection. The muzzle can be seen in the top right of the pic above. It does not have a bipod. These are the reciever markings.


Originally Posted By leid:
tgus,
You are absolutely correct. Every 10.5" Colt 9MM SMG I have seen had a full bayo lug. I saw quite a few of them while working in Cali & Bogota for several years.
Thanks for the pics of your Colt COMMANDO; VERY nice indeed. I now regret not buying Colt COMMANDO s/n 4,574,612 when it came up for sale a few years back. But I was working out a fair price with a judge on his PROPERTY OF U.S. GOVT. marked Colt COMMANDO. The judge up and died before money changed hands. I mistakenly thought the judge's estate would eventually sell it to me but the judge's son wanted it. Just my bad luck as usual.

Carey

Pic below is from the sales ad for Colt COMMANDO 4,574,612: some of the arf "experts" kept talking trash about it but it was made virtually the same time as yours. It had Buddy Hinton drooling; he had passed on one of Bob Miller's early CAR-15 series model 607s many years before. I made an offer on one of Bob's early 606s but he turned me down. Eventually wound up with a model 741 which has been a great rifle. Don't know who finally bought this one, but they got a VERY nice COMMANDO at a reasonable price IMO. Was happy when it sold. Every time I drove thru the Baton Rouge area, I had to resist calling to see it. Wish I had especially when the price was reduced.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/M16/619rollmarks.jpg


leid
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Posted: 3/9/2012 3:35:25 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 3:40:42 PM by leid]
tgus,
The one I took a run on was marked "06A" with no property marks & had a USGI M2 bipod just like the M14E2. It had a side assist, hard chrome carrier, white plastic with steel core buffer that had the general shape of an Edgewater Spring Guide. Yours have that also? I do not know how many AR15/M16/M16A1 models Bob had. Somebody, might have been Buddy, stated that Bob had one complete set 601 thru 649 and was working on a second set.
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tgus
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Posted: 3/9/2012 3:49:52 PM
Yup that is the buffer mine has. It is a slick side. I have the list of guns somewhere from from when Bob's sister sold his collection. I will have to try and find it. I have the 606 his old 605 and Belt Fed.




Originally Posted By leid:
tgus,
The one I took a run on was marked "06A" with no property marks & had a USGI M2 bipod just like the M14E2. It had a side assist, hard chrome carrier, white plastic with steel core buffer that had the general shape of an Edgewater Spring Guide. Yours have that also? I do not know how many AR15/M16/M16A1 models Bob had. Somebody, might have been Buddy, stated that Bob had one complete set 601 thru 649 and was working on a second set.


tgus
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Posted: 3/9/2012 3:50:40 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 3:51:54 PM by tgus]
Opps
leid
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Posted: 3/9/2012 4:20:02 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 4:21:22 PM by leid]
Yes indeed, that is the same buffer. Did you do a FOIA on your model 606? Just really curious about the date Colt made those buffers. I would think they are Colt tool room production.
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tgus
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Posted: 3/9/2012 8:22:16 PM
Yes the form 2 was dated sometime in Aug 1965. The M2 belt fed has the same buffer.

Originally Posted By leid:
Yes indeed, that is the same buffer. Did you do a FOIA on your model 606? Just really curious about the date Colt made those buffers. I would think they are Colt tool room production.


leid
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Posted: 3/9/2012 8:47:46 PM
[Last Edit: 3/9/2012 8:51:23 PM by leid]
Originally Posted By tgus:
Yes the form 2 was dated sometime in Aug 1965. The M2 belt fed has the same buffer.

Originally Posted By leid:
Yes indeed, that is the same buffer. Did you do a FOIA on your model 606? Just really curious about the date Colt made those buffers. I would think they are Colt tool room production.




tgus,
I appreciate all the good info & pics.

Thanks again!
Carey
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Posted: 3/9/2012 11:03:55 PM


The two of you have some amazing rifles in there. Care to share some of the others? How many different versions do you each have? Do you have any really rare ones? I knew there was quite a few models made, but you both seem to have a couple that I never had seen before. Not that I'm any where near a "colt" collector.
collegeboy
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Posted: 3/10/2012 2:01:34 AM
Originally Posted By tgus:
Leid,

Thanks for the information. Here are a couple pics of my Commando. It left Colt in 1971 and the moderator was registered in 1974.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p57/tgus/619/619004.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p57/tgus/619/619002.jpg
All of my shorties only the factory 9mm has the bayonet lug.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p57/tgus/619/619001.jpg


Holly crap man, are those all transferable MGs?

If so, I am very very very very jealous! :(

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Posted: 3/15/2012 1:40:05 PM
Some nice toys guys
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Augee
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Posted: 3/19/2012 11:01:50 AM
Originally Posted By leid:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Originally Posted By tgus:
My factory commando has no bayonet lug.


Factory MGs have *rarely* been neutered, then. As with most things Colt, I guess you can never say never to any particular weird configuration.



It is a bit disappointing to see that the current knowledge base here has not corrected the above statement. Kudos to tgus for adding his credible information. Post pics of your COMMANDO when you have time. I truly enjoy looking at the first generation Colt AR-15s.They are works of art IMO. Here is my information based on 44 years of experience with the AR15/M16 platform. With Colt there are ALWAYS exceptions but there are guidelines. One of which follows & is very important when it comes to identifying genuine transferables from the earliest CAR-15 series thru the M4 series 10.0" & 11.5" carbines manufactured prior to the advent of the 10.3" MK18 carbine/upper/barrel. A factory Colt 10.0" or 11.5" Carbine/upper/barrel should normally have a SHAVED bayo lug as shown on the original factory Colt 10.0" & 11.5" M4 uppers below. The only non factory original Colt parts pictured are the CCH BUIS & the FH on the 10" M4 upper. If you come across an "all original" 10" or 11.5" Colt Carbine/upper/barrel with a standard bayo lug, your BS filter had better be working to figure out what you are actually looking at. Unfortunately, Colt violated this guideline with the MK18/694X series. Some genuine factory Colt MK18/694X series carbines/uppers/barrels have bayo lugs and some do not. This caveat had us scratching out heads until several current U.S. military guys shed some light on this. The information they provided is that the Colt 10.3" carbines/uppers/barrels ordered for Uncle Sam are ordered WITH a full bayo lug. This requirement may be an effort towards better parts commonality. The Colt 10.3" carbines/uppers/barrels manufactured for LE may or may not have a bayo lug. When I look at a DOD MK18, I now expect to see an intact bayo lug. And I have not been disappointed YET. But in time, Colt will throw us another curve. They already have but that does not apply to this thread. FWIW.





R635 SMG without bayonet lug

As far as the "general rule" for Colt commercial select-fire 5.56MM carbines is that the bayonet lug is omitted if the barrel cannot accept a bayonet. This has been true since the R605. However, some late XM177E2s also had bayonet lugs intact - though almost all of them seem to have gone to foreign sales (pictures are seen of them on Filipino XM177E2s as well as UK SAS).

MK 18 and CQBR barrels retain the bayonet lug because the original CQBR project consisted of cut down 14.5" M4A1 barrels.

For whatever reason, Crane didn't bother cutting the bayonet lugs off - Colt was asked to produce the same barrels in a factory configuration. Crane left the bayonet lug - so Colt did as well.

For a while, SAW was offering "SP" (Special Purpose) versions of Colt rifles with 10.0" barrels with shaved bayonet lugs. "CQB" variants tend to refer to those using the CQBR/MK 18 barrel in 10.3" and "usually" have bayonet lugs - however, the 694x series uppers and folding front sight are not govered by any military specification, so sometimes have their bayonet lugs shaved off.

The 10.3" barrel is an oddity because it is not a Colt commercial offering "per se," it was developed by NSWC-Crane, and Colt has only just begun "officially offering" the 10.3" barrel length - because the military ones retain the bayonet lug, some of the commercial ones do as well, but there doesn't seem to be a clear "parameter" yet of how 10.3" barrels are to be set up.

Colt's current "commando" offering is the RO933 - an 11.5" .625 diameter barrel - with a shave bayonet lug. The MK 18 / M4A1 CQBR upper is uaully designated with a "CQB" suffix - but there doesn't seem to be a clear way of designating the 694x series of rifles - Colt, having long since offered a relatively simple set of model numbers - have now added the "CM" series and the "PO" series, and it will probably take them a while to iron everything out.

~Augee
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Posted: 3/21/2012 2:11:19 AM
[Last Edit: 3/21/2012 2:11:45 AM by maleante]
Also lacking a bayonet lug. Notice the Uzi magazines:


I'll save my thoughts on the people who can spend any amount of dollars on a rifle but can't devote 20 minutes to getting their body in shape for another thread. -skinnysarge79
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