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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:02:51 PM EDT
Is there a guide in here explaining how to perm attach a flash hider using 1100 degree silver solder? I don't want to pin&weld or weld it. I'm pretty sure I know how to do the 1100 degree method, but I wanted to double check and verify before I do it.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 10:47:47 PM EDT
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 10:49:38 PM EDT
It is easy so blind pin and weld a hider, and so easy to remove the hider when you want to, I don't know why you wouldn't want to do it that way...

You simply drill a little hole, pin it, and spot weld it. When, and if, you want to remove the hider you simply grind off the tack and un-thread the hider, to reassemble simply thread the hider back on insert a pin in the hole and re-tack and if you have any skill at all you can't even tell it's been done a second time.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 11:05:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 11:07:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
It is easy so blind pin and weld a hider, and so easy to remove the hider when you want to, I don't know why you wouldn't want to do it that way...

You simply drill a little hole, pin it, and spot weld it. When, and if, you want to remove the hider you simply grind off the tack and un-thread the hider, to reassemble simply thread the hider back on insert a pin in the hole and re-tack and if you have any skill at all you can't even tell it's been done a second time.


I'd probably want a drill setup on a press to do the drilling cleanly, and also I don't have a wedler... I'd be cheaper and easier to just get a torch from what I understand.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 11:13:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:58:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jazer:
I'd probably want a drill setup on a press to do the drilling cleanly, and also I don't have a wedler... I'd be cheaper and easier to just get a torch from what I understand.
I suggest you start looking for a buddy(s) who had a drill press &/or a MIG welder.

Good luck with your project.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:41:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 12:43:34 PM EDT by bushflyr]
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap. You can get the paste from any jewelery supply shop for $5. A simple MAPP gas torch with a turbo head (not the small one, it doesn't put out enough heat) will get it done. I just used a wet rag wrapped around the barrel to prevent the heat from migrating. Minimal discoloration and 5 minutes.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/howtoattachamuzzlebrake.msnw

ETA: If you look closely you can see where the solder flowed out between the rings of the peel washer. That's how you know when it's done.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:19:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap.


Have you ever removed a hider after you soldered it, where you able to reuse it, were you able to get all the solder off the barrel?

When hiders are blind pinned and welded they can be removed in a few minutes, and be re-pinned and re-welded without anyone being able to tell. Why is this important, serviceability. I've seen the ears of a FSB get broken off when a guy fell during a match, I've seen a Vortex get bent when a guy fell in one of Pat Rogers courses. What if down the road you decide you want to install a free float quad rail, what if you want to sell your upper but put the plastic handguard back on it, and keep your quad rail? There are other examples but you get the point, it'd be nice to be able to easily remove the hider to repair/modify your upper without any additional expense of a flash hider and possibly a new barrel.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:37:31 PM EDT
Dude. Heat the FH, spin it off, and wipe down the threads on the barrel with a rag. Easy. Just use a bronze brush to clean out the FH threads.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 3:23:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Dude. Heat the FH, spin it off, and wipe down the threads on the barrel with a rag. Easy. Just use a bronze brush to clean out the FH threads.


+1 That's what I did and the threads are then clean.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 4:19:10 PM EDT
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 4:55:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


The picture above seems to be a stainless barrel. I've done it on parked barrels without discoloration. Have you ever done it or not?

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 5:55:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 6:02:45 PM EDT by WayneG]
Look at any Ban Era DSA FAL. Every one of those brakes was silver soldered on, no damage to the barrel, no discoloration. Every one can be removed via reheating with no damage.

Years ago, when I shot Match for the Navy and before folks dovetailed the front of the slide on 1911's, I had a smith mill a slot and had him silver solder a large sight blade on. That was 20 years ago. Guess what? That sucker is still on, even thought that pistol has at least 60K rounds through it over the years. Don't think that a good silver solder joint is inferior in strength to any weld.

I like the heat stop paste, some don't. It definitely prevents barrel discoloration.

Do I like the pin and tig method. Sure. I actually use both methods. But I will go on the record that one is not any better then the other, if done right. I stress this point, SS can be easily done wrong, generally when not enough heat is applied and you don't get good flow. The joint is brittle and can be broken fairly easily.

To the OP: Silver Soldering is easy, but it does require you to heat that FH/barrel joint to cherry red to get good flow. If you don't feel comfortable with it, I recommend you take your barrel to a gunsmith and have him do it.

To OMEGA_556: This isn't GD. The OP is in a technical forum asking about silver soldering his FH. He has clearly stated he doesn't want to blind pin it. Reading is fundamental, so ease back on the attitude.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 9:58:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


LOLZ. If you bother to look at the pic you'll notice that my parked Vortex isn't discolored in the least, all the oil is just smoked off of it. And the barrel is just a bit of surface oxidation It would polish off if I actually cared to do it. I was Duracoating the whole thing so I didn't care.

Please help out the OP and quit acting like you know what you're talking about. If I had easy access to a MIG or TIG welder and a drill press i would likely do it that way, but I, and 99% of the rest of the population, don't. So I solder. It really makes no difference, in fact nearly every double barrel shotgun out there has the barrels soldered together, so it's a perfectly acceptable way of joining metals. You're acting like it's a religious argument or something.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 11:24:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43vtgp300zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2Fns%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43vunwj00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2FNS%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 1:08:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43vx3ef00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2Fns%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43vy9y400zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2FNS%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!


Yes, that's the stuff. Mapp torch and chalk, you're all set. Go slow, be careful, and you'll be fine. I strongly recommend you review bushflyr's post and link. He seems to really know his stuff and there is great info in his posted link, particularly concerning determining if your thread tolerance is too tight to get enough solder between the barrel and FH and what to do to mitigate that.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 10:23:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 10:24:02 AM EDT by wildearp]
People: If you attempt the solder method using paste, be sure to put a wrench on your FH after it cools and make sure it won't come off. I bought one used from a member that had no more hold than loctite. That is the same thing as having an illegal SBR in your inventory.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 11:52:16 AM EDT
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 1:20:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


You've never done a single bit of brazing, soldering, or shop work have you?

The biggest benefit that brazing and soldering have OVER welding is that the base metal's properties are NOT altered with no to minimal dimensional changes. Welding always has some portion of a heat affected zone here those properties are changed. Tack in somebody who doesn't weld for a living, and it is possible to burn through this stuff into your barrel.

The company I work for makes internal jet engine parts. Guess what? We use brazing and soldering on parts that see the high temps of inside a jet engine. We're talking very tight tolerances, high centrifugal forces, and high temps.

Many top 1911 custom smiths use silver solder methods when altering fits or attaching parts to frames - and they work fine and dandy years later.

Just something to think about.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 2:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 2:50:34 PM EDT by Flashbang1]
I permanetly attached a YHM muzzle brake to my prebaned 14.5 inch barrel by drilling a 1/8 inch hole in it and threading it to install a allen set screw then cut the screw flush with a dremel cut off wheel and cold blue, also cut the bayo lug with the dremel. The pics really pronouce the set screw, but in real life it is very well blended.

Silver solder option was considered untill I realized it would discolor the brake/barrel and cost $50.00+ and a mini park job. This cost .45cents and 10 min.
I wish someone had pics of a solder job without a re-park.



Link Posted: 11/23/2008 2:49:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 3:07:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43w20ck00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2Fns%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43w35ge00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2FNS%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!


They want 60 bucks for those 2 items!! Holy crap!! I'm glad I have access to a drill press and welder. I WAS going to just silver solder my brake but gosh! That stuff is expensive! Is the jeweler's solder good enough? I don't think it costs that much does it?

Link Posted: 11/23/2008 3:53:30 PM EDT
Jewelers solder is fine. Use the soft/easy variety. It's about 60-65% silver and melts around 1300 degrees. Don't use the easy-flo, it's 50% but contains Cadmium which is toxic.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 4:13:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 4:15:45 PM EDT by Mak]
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Is there a guide in here explaining how to perm attach a flash hider using 1100 degree silver solder? I don't want to pin&weld or weld it. I'm pretty sure I know how to do the 1100 degree method, but I wanted to double check and verify before I do it.

Thanks!


Where are you at in Arizona? I've got a syringe of SS in Tucson and a mapp gas torch if you are local and don't have any. silver solder supplies

Link Posted: 11/23/2008 4:19:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Jewelers solder is fine. Use the soft/easy variety. It's about 60-65% silver and melts around 1300 degrees. Don't use the easy-flo, it's 50% but contains Cadmium which is toxic.



Thanks! That's good to know. I may try that route,we'll see.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 5:56:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...


I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top.
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 6:56:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...


I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top.


I don't know a link to it, but I'm 99% positive you have to weld the top of the pin according to the ATF.

Three ATF approved methods are:
1. Pin & Weld (weld the top of the pin)
2. Weld around the entire base of the FH
3. 1100 deg silver soder method (as discussed above)
Link Posted: 11/23/2008 7:39:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jazer:
I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top.


I don't know a link to it, but I'm 99% positive you have to weld the top of the pin according to the ATF.

Three ATF approved methods are:
1. Pin & Weld (weld the top of the pin)
2. Weld around the entire base of the FH
3. 1100 deg silver soder method (as discussed above)


Actually you are incorrect about the pin thing as per BATFE although this could have changed since manufactures do pin and weld.



DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 18 1998 F:FPD:FTB:RAT
3311


Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask
about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms.

A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which
is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature
silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees
Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of
measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the
circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around
the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose.

A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension
permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on
a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle.
Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension
which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would
still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic
assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section
921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable
method for permanently attaching a muzzle device.

- 2 -

Mr.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If you have further questions concerning this matter, please
contact us.


Sincerely yours,

[signed]

Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch


Link Posted: 12/6/2008 2:30:40 PM EDT
I'm wanting to remove a pinned Vortex on my 14.5 inch MRP barrel and replace it with a permenatly attached FSC556. I would think that silver soldering would be the best method to attach the new FSC556, so that I wouldn't have to have 2 extra holes drilled, which I don't want. Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it?

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/12/2008 10:21:43 AM EDT
I believe silicone would be ok to use, just make sure it's the red high temp stuff.


Link Posted: 12/12/2008 11:12:19 AM EDT
From the How too section of this forum:
How to permanently attach a muzzle device:

If you have a barrel that is 14.5", you must permanently attach a muzzle device that makes the total lenght 16" or more. Best to go 16.1" at least to be safe. For the 14.5" barrel, it is commonly accepted to use the Vortex or Phantom style of flash supressors. The ATF states to be permanently attached, the muzzle device cannot be removed with hand tools easily and must use 1100 degree silver solder, blind pinnned and welded, or welded completely around the barrel. This writeup will demonstrate the most common method, the blind pin and weld.

This was originally posted by wildearp, I am just using the basics of his post for this section:


Start by predrilling the muzzle device through one side - while removed from the barrel. The drill size should be the same diameter as your pin size. Coat hanger works great.:






Next - attach the muzzle device, time it with a peel or crush washer, and then drill into the barrel, using the hole in the muzzle device as a guide. A drill press works well here, to ensure you do not drill too deep. If you penetrate the bore you will destroy the accuracy of the barrel - go slow here. You only need to drill deep enough to accept the pin.





It should look like this:




Now we are ready to insert the pin.... this is coat hanger, cut to fit.:




Before welding, cover the barrel well to ensure you dont mark it up with welding splatter. Wrap it well. Melted adhesive comes off. Welding splatter doesnt so well. (another great option here is to wrap the barrel surfaces with a few layers of aluminum foil.... no adhesive mess.




A pic after welding. At this point - you can hit it with a dremel, or sander, to blend it in (careful!!!) Then hit it with some cold blue to darken it.




Installed:





Link Posted: 12/12/2008 1:57:42 PM EDT
I got my FSC556 attached yesterday on my MRP 14.5 by means of solver soldering. The outcome was very good, there was a slight discoloration of the muzzle device, but the remainder of the barrel was fine. I used Brownells Heat Stop on the barrel and the muzzle device, except for the threaded area where we were heating it. I got home and cleaned it up with some Break Free and here are the results:







I think in the future, I will be using this method to permenately attach muzzle devices instead of the blind pin method.
Link Posted: 12/12/2008 2:06:28 PM EDT
Nice job!
Link Posted: 12/16/2008 1:38:50 PM EDT
+1 The solder job looks very clean. I was debating which way to go myself, that sold it for me, thanks!!
Link Posted: 12/16/2008 4:45:23 PM EDT
1000 degree silver is too easy (on or off) for me to bother with any other method.
Link Posted: 12/16/2008 11:39:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MEatVt:
1000 degree silver is too easy (on or off) for me to bother with any other method.


Just in case any BATFers are reading this thread, I'm sure you meant 1100 degree silver, right?
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 5:26:42 AM EDT
I wonder if the high temp it takes to melt the solder ruins the heat treatment of the barrel or would cause any of the chrome on a lined barrel to flake?
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 8:04:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar_mcadams:
I wonder if the high temp it takes to melt the solder ruins the heat treatment of the barrel or would cause any of the chrome on a lined barrel to flake?



The barrel that I soldered the brake onto was chrome molly steel with a chrome lined bore. I used Heat Stop on it and it didn't transfer much heat. The chrome lining is fine and the rifle shoots the same as it did before. As far as the heat treatment, I wouldn't know about that.
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 10:06:44 AM EDT
Rehashed ad nauseum. It doesn't affect the heat treatment in any perceptible manner.

Link Posted: 1/15/2009 11:21:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2009 11:24:28 AM EDT by AKARS]
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap.


Have you ever removed a hider after you soldered it, where you able to reuse it, were you able to get all the solder off the barrel?

When hiders are blind pinned and welded they can be removed in a few minutes, and be re-pinned and re-welded without anyone being able to tell. Why is this important, serviceability. I've seen the ears of a FSB get broken off when a guy fell during a match, I've seen a Vortex get bent when a guy fell in one of Pat Rogers courses. What if down the road you decide you want to install a free float quad rail, what if you want to sell your upper but put the plastic handguard back on it, and keep your quad rail? There are other examples but you get the point, it'd be nice to be able to easily remove the hider to repair/modify your upper without any additional expense of a flash hider and possibly a new barrel.


This is not always true.

While I have seen great pin & weld jobs, they don't always turn out that way. Here's what I ended up after having a couple of bbls shortened. If I would have known they would have turned out like this I might have considered the silver solder route!

Link Posted: 1/15/2009 11:21:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2009 11:23:02 AM EDT by AKARS]
DP












Link Posted: 1/15/2009 12:32:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By INTrooper4255:
Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it?



I do now, you. Good job
Link Posted: 1/15/2009 2:02:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Romokid:
Originally Posted By INTrooper4255:
Does anyone know of anyone that silver solders, since I would have no idea how to do it?



I do now, you. Good job




Thanks, I hate trying stuff for the first time, but this seemed fairly straight forward.
Link Posted: 1/19/2009 12:18:49 PM EDT
so if you use the solder past from Brownells and the solder is on the threads, how do know when it melts and is time to take the heat off. I mean you wont be able to see it and if you leave some showing then it looks bad.
Link Posted: 1/19/2009 4:59:56 PM EDT
Heat it until it is dark red, cool down and try to turn it with a wrench. Just make sure that you don't quench it once it's heated, let it cool on it's own.
Link Posted: 3/4/2009 1:35:56 AM EDT
I'm gonna try the solder method
Link Posted: 3/4/2009 9:20:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2009 9:22:40 AM EDT by FunYun1983]
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


If you can use one of the broken screw/bolt extractors on it, then I don't think the ATF would approve.

Basically, if you can remove the piece without grinding or melting, it isn’t 'permanent' as far as the ATF sees it.


ETA:

INTrooper4255, that looks great, I'm certainly gonna try solder before pin and weld now.
Link Posted: 3/4/2009 9:44:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...


I don't know the exact wording of the law but I read permanently installed. If this is not permanent I don't know what is. The only way to uninstall is to drill the set screw because you ground off the hex part. actually this is more secure than the pin because you have to drill the whole thing not just the welded top.



The ATF has provided what they consider to be the “approved” methods.
That is the end of the story… any other method should be considered “non-approved”.
If you want to debate it, you could very well get the chance to do so as a defendant in a criminal proceeding.


Link Posted: 4/15/2009 1:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2009 1:11:54 AM EDT by Wildkow]
Anyone have an example of a welded FH?

Wildkow

p.s. that toe is just nasty!
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 8:57:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2009 9:04:37 PM EDT by Displaced_Texan1]
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43whs4p00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2Fns%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&pw=55963&ctc=j5o43wj23y00zk8a00y51&mi=10077&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Faspx%2Fgeneral%2FError404.aspx%3F404%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%3A80%2Faspx%2FNS%2Fstore%2Fproductdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!


Or buy the same stuff from here for less than half the price:

http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/heat-shields.html

-Texan
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