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Jazer
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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:02:51 PM

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Is there a guide in here explaining how to perm attach a flash hider using 1100 degree silver solder? I don't want to pin&weld or weld it. I'm pretty sure I know how to do the 1100 degree method, but I wanted to double check and verify before I do it.

Thanks!
Mad-Machinist
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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:47:47 PM
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.
Omega_556
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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:49:38 PM
It is easy so blind pin and weld a hider, and so easy to remove the hider when you want to, I don't know why you wouldn't want to do it that way...

You simply drill a little hole, pin it, and spot weld it. When, and if, you want to remove the hider you simply grind off the tack and un-thread the hider, to reassemble simply thread the hider back on insert a pin in the hole and re-tack and if you have any skill at all you can't even tell it's been done a second time.
Jazer
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Posted: 11/20/2008 11:05:58 PM
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?
Jazer
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Posted: 11/20/2008 11:07:46 PM
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
It is easy so blind pin and weld a hider, and so easy to remove the hider when you want to, I don't know why you wouldn't want to do it that way...

You simply drill a little hole, pin it, and spot weld it. When, and if, you want to remove the hider you simply grind off the tack and un-thread the hider, to reassemble simply thread the hider back on insert a pin in the hole and re-tack and if you have any skill at all you can't even tell it's been done a second time.


I'd probably want a drill setup on a press to do the drilling cleanly, and also I don't have a wedler... I'd be cheaper and easier to just get a torch from what I understand.
WayneG
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Posted: 11/20/2008 11:13:42 PM
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.
Caelum, non animum mutant, qui trans mare currunt
-Horatius, "Epistulae"
Omega_556
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Posted: 11/22/2008 12:58:47 AM
Originally Posted By Jazer:
I'd probably want a drill setup on a press to do the drilling cleanly, and also I don't have a wedler... I'd be cheaper and easier to just get a torch from what I understand.
I suggest you start looking for a buddy(s) who had a drill press &/or a MIG welder.

Good luck with your project.
bushflyr
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Posted: 11/22/2008 12:41:59 PM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 12:43:34 PM by bushflyr]
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap. You can get the paste from any jewelery supply shop for $5. A simple MAPP gas torch with a turbo head (not the small one, it doesn't put out enough heat) will get it done. I just used a wet rag wrapped around the barrel to prevent the heat from migrating. Minimal discoloration and 5 minutes.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/howtoattachamuzzlebrake.msnw

ETA: If you look closely you can see where the solder flowed out between the rings of the peel washer. That's how you know when it's done.

Omega_556
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Posted: 11/22/2008 2:19:25 PM
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
I have no idea why people are so anti-solder, it's easy and cheap.


Have you ever removed a hider after you soldered it, where you able to reuse it, were you able to get all the solder off the barrel?

When hiders are blind pinned and welded they can be removed in a few minutes, and be re-pinned and re-welded without anyone being able to tell. Why is this important, serviceability. I've seen the ears of a FSB get broken off when a guy fell during a match, I've seen a Vortex get bent when a guy fell in one of Pat Rogers courses. What if down the road you decide you want to install a free float quad rail, what if you want to sell your upper but put the plastic handguard back on it, and keep your quad rail? There are other examples but you get the point, it'd be nice to be able to easily remove the hider to repair/modify your upper without any additional expense of a flash hider and possibly a new barrel.
bushflyr
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Posted: 11/22/2008 2:37:31 PM
Dude. Heat the FH, spin it off, and wipe down the threads on the barrel with a rag. Easy. Just use a bronze brush to clean out the FH threads.
Mak
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Posted: 11/22/2008 3:23:12 PM
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Dude. Heat the FH, spin it off, and wipe down the threads on the barrel with a rag. Easy. Just use a bronze brush to clean out the FH threads.


+1 That's what I did and the threads are then clean.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Omega_556
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Posted: 11/22/2008 4:19:10 PM
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Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…
Mak
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Posted: 11/22/2008 4:55:14 PM
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


The picture above seems to be a stainless barrel. I've done it on parked barrels without discoloration. Have you ever done it or not?

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
WayneG
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Posted: 11/22/2008 5:55:07 PM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 6:02:45 PM by WayneG]
Look at any Ban Era DSA FAL. Every one of those brakes was silver soldered on, no damage to the barrel, no discoloration. Every one can be removed via reheating with no damage.

Years ago, when I shot Match for the Navy and before folks dovetailed the front of the slide on 1911's, I had a smith mill a slot and had him silver solder a large sight blade on. That was 20 years ago. Guess what? That sucker is still on, even thought that pistol has at least 60K rounds through it over the years. Don't think that a good silver solder joint is inferior in strength to any weld.

I like the heat stop paste, some don't. It definitely prevents barrel discoloration.

Do I like the pin and tig method. Sure. I actually use both methods. But I will go on the record that one is not any better then the other, if done right. I stress this point, SS can be easily done wrong, generally when not enough heat is applied and you don't get good flow. The joint is brittle and can be broken fairly easily.

To the OP: Silver Soldering is easy, but it does require you to heat that FH/barrel joint to cherry red to get good flow. If you don't feel comfortable with it, I recommend you take your barrel to a gunsmith and have him do it.

To OMEGA_556: This isn't GD. The OP is in a technical forum asking about silver soldering his FH. He has clearly stated he doesn't want to blind pin it. Reading is fundamental, so ease back on the attitude.
Caelum, non animum mutant, qui trans mare currunt
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bushflyr
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Posted: 11/22/2008 9:58:06 PM
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


LOLZ. If you bother to look at the pic you'll notice that my parked Vortex isn't discolored in the least, all the oil is just smoked off of it. And the barrel is just a bit of surface oxidation It would polish off if I actually cared to do it. I was Duracoating the whole thing so I didn't care.

Please help out the OP and quit acting like you know what you're talking about. If I had easy access to a MIG or TIG welder and a drill press i would likely do it that way, but I, and 99% of the rest of the population, don't. So I solder. It really makes no difference, in fact nearly every double barrel shotgun out there has the barrels soldered together, so it's a perfectly acceptable way of joining metals. You're acting like it's a religious argument or something.
Jazer
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Posted: 11/22/2008 11:24:16 PM
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!
WayneG
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Posted: 11/23/2008 1:08:47 AM
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!


Yes, that's the stuff. Mapp torch and chalk, you're all set. Go slow, be careful, and you'll be fine. I strongly recommend you review bushflyr's post and link. He seems to really know his stuff and there is great info in his posted link, particularly concerning determining if your thread tolerance is too tight to get enough solder between the barrel and FH and what to do to mitigate that.
Caelum, non animum mutant, qui trans mare currunt
-Horatius, "Epistulae"
wildearp
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Posted: 11/23/2008 10:23:40 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 10:24:02 AM by wildearp]
People: If you attempt the solder method using paste, be sure to put a wrench on your FH after it cools and make sure it won't come off. I bought one used from a member that had no more hold than loctite. That is the same thing as having an illegal SBR in your inventory.
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Easy_E
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Posted: 11/23/2008 11:52:16 AM
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.
jeep45238
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Posted: 11/23/2008 1:20:11 PM
Originally Posted By Omega_556:
(-1)

Dude, how is it you can do this without discoloring the barrel and hider? Oh, you cannot...

Hey, if you guys don’t mind heating your barrels to 1200°F and discoloring your barrels and hiders then by all means go for it; however if you want it done right, blind pin and weld them…


You've never done a single bit of brazing, soldering, or shop work have you?

The biggest benefit that brazing and soldering have OVER welding is that the base metal's properties are NOT altered with no to minimal dimensional changes. Welding always has some portion of a heat affected zone here those properties are changed. Tack in somebody who doesn't weld for a living, and it is possible to burn through this stuff into your barrel.

The company I work for makes internal jet engine parts. Guess what? We use brazing and soldering on parts that see the high temps of inside a jet engine. We're talking very tight tolerances, high centrifugal forces, and high temps.

Many top 1911 custom smiths use silver solder methods when altering fits or attaching parts to frames - and they work fine and dandy years later.

Just something to think about.
Flashbang1
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Posted: 11/23/2008 2:46:57 PM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 2:50:34 PM by Flashbang1]
I permanetly attached a YHM muzzle brake to my prebaned 14.5 inch barrel by drilling a 1/8 inch hole in it and threading it to install a allen set screw then cut the screw flush with a dremel cut off wheel and cold blue, also cut the bayo lug with the dremel. The pics really pronouce the set screw, but in real life it is very well blended.

Silver solder option was considered untill I realized it would discolor the brake/barrel and cost $50.00+ and a mini park job. This cost .45cents and 10 min.
I wish someone had pics of a solder job without a re-park.



bushflyr
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Posted: 11/23/2008 2:49:41 PM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
There is another way to pin it on without a welder. A local gunsmith showed me this .
Drill a hole through the flash hider and in to the barrel slightly. Pull the hider back off and tap the hole with threads. Reinstall the flash hider with the threaded hole lined up with the hole in the barrel. Take a extra long set screw with loctite and thread it into the hole. It should bottom out in the hole and leave the head above the surface. Now grind off the head and shape to the hider. If your careful you only need to touch up the round shiny spot.


That method is entirely serviceable, but, IIRC, not legal as the law is currently written. I'm not sure how the batmen would go about proving it, but I'm sure they could come up with something. You could, maybe, use that method but silver solder the pin in place by applying the heat to the exposed end of the set screw prior to grinding it off. But then you're messing about in lawyer land with the fine points of a law that the batmen don't even know what it really means. Most likely you'll never have to worry about it, but...
raygixxer89
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Posted: 11/23/2008 3:07:14 PM
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Basically you heat the flash hider with the aceteleyne torch with a very small tip till the solder melts and draws into the joint. Clean the threads of both parts very well and use a small amount of paste flux on them prior to heating.


The solder gets placed on the threads inside the FH right? Is that also where the paste flux is placed?


Easiest way is to use the Fusion paste sold by Brownells. Flux is already mixed in. My method:

Coat threads with fusion paste, screw on FH.
Coat barrel, starting about 1/8" below the FH with Heat Stop Paste (Brownells). This will prevent discoloration and damage to the barrel.
Coat the FH and the 1/8" section of barrel without Heat Stop with chalk, any chalk will do. In case any solder flows onto the exposed metal this will prevent it from adhering to the surface, making clean up easy.
USE OXY MAPP vice OXY. This will get you up to the right temperature faster so the solder flows quicker.
Heat the area on the FH above the threads until you see the solder flow along the joint between the FH and the barrel.
Done.


This: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1121
and this: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6647&st=&s=16017

?

Seems simple enuf And yes some of you are right, I don't have access to a welder right now, nor do I want to spend the money on a good welder and drill press. My money right now is better spent on firearms and ammo!


They want 60 bucks for those 2 items!! Holy crap!! I'm glad I have access to a drill press and welder. I WAS going to just silver solder my brake but gosh! That stuff is expensive! Is the jeweler's solder good enough? I don't think it costs that much does it?

bushflyr
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Posted: 11/23/2008 3:53:30 PM
Jewelers solder is fine. Use the soft/easy variety. It's about 60-65% silver and melts around 1300 degrees. Don't use the easy-flo, it's 50% but contains Cadmium which is toxic.
Mak
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Posted: 11/23/2008 4:13:00 PM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2008 4:15:45 PM by Mak]
Originally Posted By Jazer:
Is there a guide in here explaining how to perm attach a flash hider using 1100 degree silver solder? I don't want to pin&weld or weld it. I'm pretty sure I know how to do the 1100 degree method, but I wanted to double check and verify before I do it.

Thanks!


Where are you at in Arizona? I've got a syringe of SS in Tucson and a mapp gas torch if you are local and don't have any. silver solder supplies

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
raygixxer89
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Posted: 11/23/2008 4:19:36 PM
Originally Posted By bushflyr:
Jewelers solder is fine. Use the soft/easy variety. It's about 60-65% silver and melts around 1300 degrees. Don't use the easy-flo, it's 50% but contains Cadmium which is toxic.



Thanks! That's good to know. I may try that route,we'll see.
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