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Posted: 3/24/2012 9:24:49 PM EDT
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Meaning, how do I dispose of it safely?
I bought about 1200 rounds of American Eagle XM193 from Natchez well over a year ago for a Vickers class. Well, I did have a major jam at that class using XM193 that mystified me and a few people. After firing the culprit round, the case got stuck in the chamber, and it was nearly impossible to extract the cartridge without breaking the gun down. I did notice the primer was missing, but I thought this was due to our attempts at removing the stuck case. Of course, everyone blamed it on my Bushmaster upper and CMMG barrel, but the gun ran fine the rest of the class using a mix of Winchester USA Q3131A, PMC 223 and whatever XM193 lots I possessed at that time. Later last summer, I was practicing, and I got the same malfunction where a blown primer was stuck in the barrel extension preventing the gun from cycling. I took the magazine out, and the upper off the lower, so I could get the bolt out. I was pretty bumbed out, but I confirmed that the problem only existed wihen I shot XM193 rounds, not whatever Winchester Q3131A or PMC I had available. My M4 clone ran fine with those rounds. I really didn't get a chance until this past month to go to the range and test every lot of XM193 I owned. To test it, I inserted 30 rounds into five different magazines of five different lots of Federal American Eagle XM193. These lots worked fine without malfunction (sample size 30 rounds for each): Lot No U54 Z528, SMQ10K037-482 These lots caused malfunctions, where I would get 1-2 rounds out of 30 with blown primers: SMQ1OA037-408, SMQ10K037-477, SMQ10B037-419 I'm going to strictly mark the magazines I use (color coded) for the three lots that I presume are "OK" to see if any of those rounds result in blown primers during practice. I will not use any of these XM193 lots for a match. Regardless, what the hell do I do with the two confirmed bad lots? It's not like I can throw them into the dumpster. I'm not sure if anyone at my club can properly dispose of them or not. Would I hurt my gun if I proceed to shoot the presumed bad lots? I'm sure a primer stuck in the barrel extension has to cause excess stress on the bolt during its failed attempt at extraction. If anyone demands pictures of some blown primers on Lake City brass, I'll be more than happy to provide them. Thanks Edited to modify the malfunction vs. OK lists. |
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Quoted: put a free add on craigslist, it will be gone in seconds, Hell I will pay for shipping to me.Meaning, how do I dispose of it safely? If you don't want to let someone shoot it, the give it to a reloader to tear down/inspect I would suggest you look at a more in depth analysis than just shooting a few rounds and calling it bad. Find another gun, crony and weigh the charges in the ammo. Then post all the results. |
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+1 and then contact Federal. That's a lot more than just coincidence, and they will want to know about this for their own purposes.
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I would suggest you look at a more in depth analysis than just shooting a few rounds and calling it bad. Find another gun, crony and weigh the charges in the ammo. Then post all the results.
Meaning, how do I dispose of it safely? |
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There have been many reports of late where LC/Federal XM193 has had issues with blown primers. This is why I don't buy the new production stuff.
I would personally keep it and use it for plinking/training ammo, with the expectation of having to clear the rifle every once in a while. I'd also call Federal and complain about the problem. They really need to get on top of this issue. |
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I guess I'll try to call Federal tomorrow if I have time. I'm a doctor, so it's hard for me to call during normal business hours. I'm about to go out to test the "good" batches again againsy some IMI I just got from Wideners. Again, I've never had a problem in my AR with any other ammo type using a Bushy lower, upper, CMMG M4 barrel, and either the Bushmaster or Bravo Company bolt and bolt carrier. It's only with this xm193 stuff I've had a problem, and it doesn't matter if I use aluminum USGI or Pmags either. I'm fairly certain it's the ammo and not my gun.
Any other suggestions are welcome. |
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My thread with the same problem
Link I spoke to a tech and emailed another. They never sent the return address but I will contacting them tomorrow. Checking my lot number to see if it's the same. Do not get rid of the ammo. If found to be defective they will replace it. |
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Standard procedure: your local LEO has a disposal route, and will take unwanted ammo with no questions asked. They dispose in an ammo burner, which is a purpose designed heater box that will thermally ignight the rounds, and melts the lead, which is pooled and collected.
All that said, it is not clear to me if your issue is due to excessive pressure, or just very loose primer pockets. |
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I updated the list on my original post. I had a few blown primers today with the known "bad stuff" and one lot I thought was previously OK. This really irritates me, because I would look like an idiot if I was using this ammo at a local IDPA carbine or 3 gun match.
I tried my new IMI ammo (90 rounds) and another 30 rounds of PMC today through my gun. No problems. Again, it all comes down to these blown primers knocking loose from the cases after firing. Plain and simple. The bullets exit the rifle just fine, and the gun still cycles/extracts appropriately.....at least until the primer gets stuck in the barrel extension, which prevents the bolt from feeding the next round.  What's worse is that you can't clear the jam; instead, you'll have to disassemble the upper and lower in order to remove the bolt/bolt carrier to remove the blown primer. I now have a bag of expended primers and cases missing primers. It's stupid.
I'll call Federal tomorrow and see what happens. I'm not holding my breath. |
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For those calling Federal because they've had issues with this ammo, it would probably be a good idea to be able to tell them that you've thoroughly inspected both your bolt and your firing pin, and that they are fine.
A firing pin that causes ruptured primers will cause that in the majority of rounds, not in random rounds. A bolt with a crater around the firing pin hole can cause frequent primer ruptures, but they don't look like blow outs; they look like the primer bulged into the crater - and the shape of the crater is usually imprinted into the primer cup as it's ejected from the case. Random, intermittent primer ejections and ruptures are not hardware related. |
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For those calling Federal because they've had issues with this ammo, it would probably be a good idea to be able to tell them that you've thoroughly inspected both your bolt and your firing pin, and that they are fine. A firing pin that causes ruptured primers will cause that in the majority of rounds, not in random rounds. A bolt with a crater around the firing pin hole can cause frequent primer ruptures, but they don't look like blow outs; they look like the primer bulged into the crater - and the shape of the crater is usually imprinted into the primer cup as it's ejected from the case. Random, intermittent primer ejections and ruptures are not hardware related. Great points. Upon inspection, neither my bolt or firing pin (Bravo Comp) possess those characteristics. Likewise, the IMI, Win USA and PMC ammo I've used have never had any issues. I'm pretty sure it's the ammo. I'm going to go ahead and just email them. I never have time during the day to do this stuff. edited to say the other brands of ammo have never had any issues. typo, sorry |
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Update: I shipped the ammo back to Federal and this is their response:
We appreciate you taking the time to contact us and give us feedback on our products as we use customer feedback to improve our products. We have received the ammunition that you recently sent to us. Examination of the ammunition that we received has shown that it met all federal cartridge company and industry dimensional specifications. We then fired the ammunition to test pressure and velocity and found that your ammunition had a average pressure of 51,101psi and an average velocity of 3142f/s. The max pressure for this round is 58,700psi and the average velocity of this round is 3165 +or- 40f/s. This ammunition fell within the specifications for this round. This leads us to the conclusion that this was an isolated incident and could be the result of a comparability issue between the ammunition and the firearm. If this happens again in the future we recommend having the firearm checked out by a certified gun smith. Since we at Federal Cartridge Company do value you as a customer, we would like to compensate you for your frustration. We will be sending you 6 boxes of replacement ammunition as compensation for the ammunition you returned and your shipping and handling as soon as it is available. Again, thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. If we can be of further assistance to you , please feel free to contact us. Federal Premium Product Service Dept. It remains to be seen if the "6 boxes" are the 100 round cases or boxes of 20. Nevertheless, I would have preferred monetary reimbursement. I have had zero issues with other brands of 5.56 nato except for theirs. I highly doubt its my gun or the BCM bolt and bolt carrier. Thoughts? |
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"Isolated incident" can also mean that the rounds you had problems with were flaky, but to cover themselves, they included the possibility that you were shooting with a "Bob's Backyard Black Rifle" special that was not within specs.
They said they were sorry and they are providing compensation. I'd chalk this up to them trying to do right by you. |
| Not to be a dick. but you made it a point to let everyone know you are a doctor. So one would have to assume that you make decent money and that the few hundred you have tied up in ammo is not going to break you. It sucks that you had some problems with what you think is bad ammo. Suck it up and give it away or sell it. It sounds like they replaced your ammo with new ammo. Why would you expect some sort of monetary compensation? |
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Not to be a dick. but you made it a point to let everyone know you are a doctor. So one would have to assume that you make decent money and that the few hundred you have tied up in ammo is not going to break you. It sucks that you had some problems with what you think is bad ammo. Suck it up and give it away or sell it. It sounds like they replaced your ammo with new ammo. Why would you expect some sort of monetary compensation? No offense taken. I'm still a resident and not making big bucks yet. Regardless, I would have preferred to ship all the ammo back to them and get a check in return,not replacement XM193. That is what I meant. No big deal. I just hope the stuff works, along with the two lots that haven't malfunctioned on me yet. |
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Not to be a dick. but you made it a point to let everyone know you are a doctor. So one would have to assume that you make decent money and that the few hundred you have tied up in ammo is not going to break you. It sucks that you had some problems with what you think is bad ammo. Suck it up and give it away or sell it. It sounds like they replaced your ammo with new ammo. Why would you expect some sort of monetary compensation? No offense taken. I'm still a resident and not making big bucks yet. Regardless, I would have preferred to ship all the ammo back to them and get a check in return,not replacement XM193. That is what I meant. No big deal. I just hope the stuff works, along with the two lots that haven't malfunctioned on me yet. ...as in now you don't trust the XM193? I can't blame you for that. Where are you doing your residency? Specializing yet? (These questions are on topic; different hospitals and different practice areas have differing amounts of time off, additional study required, etc.) |
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