OK:  So a bunch of us fellows have had a lot of fun with the ARFCOM “1 MOA ALL DAY" Challenge” going on in GD.

Now sure, it is fun to collect, modify and otherwise mess with AR’s, but ultimately it is in the shooting that they are proven…and the shooter, too!  And shooting is the funnest activity of them all!

The Moderators have given me the OK to set up a new challenge, or maybe we could call it a NON-challenge as it is here just to post results for fun, one that will stay here on the AR Discussions section and hopefully will gain enough popularity to grow up to become a “Sticky” some day.

Look, the benchresters are well cared-for in the 1 MOA thread, so how about we toss out the rests, bipods, benches, bags, rucksacks, logs and, in short, supports of any kind.  How about a 100 yard UN-supported NON-MOA Challenge?!!!  I mean, you will not be disqualified if you shoot MOA, but it won't be expected, either!

Face it, service, defense and hunting rifles are NOT likely to be propped up with doohikies and gizmos, sacks, bags and carpentry when the SHTF.  And what is even more, Gomer Pyle never used a rest!  Snuffy Smith  never used a rest!  Elmer J Fudd never used a  rest!   Jed Clampett never used a rest!!  

JOHN WAYNE NEVER EVER USED A REST!!!! {except occasionally when taking cover behind a dead horse... }

So lets all stand on our hind legs…or sit…or…squat…or kneel...and get some bullets down range.  How about it?  Any takers?

For probably obvious reasons, “1 MOA ALL Day”, or even “1 MOA Part-of-the-Day” won’t cut it as a title, so I think we will go with;  

“OFFICIAL ARFCOM AR NON-MOA ‘SHTF’ CHALLENGE”.

It is all in fun, and EVERYBODY should pitch in.  Shoot your gun and post your results!  Easy to set up, just shoot and post!

And.....if you want, and are tired of hearing "it's a battle rifle, not a combat rifle" feel free to shoot your AR along with another auto, but just follow the rules.  These rules have been reviewed by a number of combat veterans and those very experienced in shooting game and varmints.  They are simple;

RULES:

1} Every post must contain the shooting of at least one AR. For technical comparison reasons, a non-AR may be included, but let’s keep them to semi-autos. Other semiauto types can be photo’d but only AR’s will be eligible in score posting. Stand-Alone NON AR posts will get this thing locked so make sure you are shooting an AR!  We can introduce this Challenge to other sections of the board down the line if it gets going here.

2} Standard “ARFCOM” target must be used so we are all equals in that regard. I know it sucks as a target, but the reason we all need to use it is that it will forma standardized target so all are handicapped by the same restrictions.  Look at the one posted here. 6-inch diameter. They are easy to make or click below;

HERE IS THE OFFICIAL TARGET

3} It is recognized that not all ranges allow unsupported shooting.  There is really no way around this so fellows will just have to find a legal, safe spot to get their 15 Shots in.  Look, make sure it is 100 yards.  I shot it at 100 meters and simply subtracted 8.2% to get the 100 yard numbers.  You may shoot it at OVER 100 and reduce caculations to 100 YARDS but no shooting under 100.  It does seem to matter.  NO SHOOTING AT LESS THAN 100 YARDS!  Use a range finder or otherwise do your level best to keep the 100 an actual 100.  This is the Honor System remember, so make sure there is some Honor in it!  

4} SHOOTING RULES;  100 yards, 15 shots within 5 minutes. Standing/Sitting/Kneeling/Squatting all OK.  NO USE OF ANY SUPPORT!  ALL SHOOTING MUST BE UN-supported AND NO prone. NO bags. NO sling.  NO sticks. NO bipods. NO benches. NO supports of any kind.  Now...since some might throw shots off a 8.5x11 sheet, the 8.5x11 ARFCOM Target may be taped/stapled on top of a target backer.  BUT the target backer MUST be clear of other shots {except the 15 fired for score}. Cardboard, construction paper, reversed tan-backed targets, white paper, etc may be used as target backers EXCEPT, again, the backer must be clean of all shots before shooting the 15 for score.  TARGETS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED IF HOLES OTHER THAN THE FIFTEEN ARE VISIBLE.  USE A CLEAN TARGET, ETC AS A BACKER.  And remember, ARFCOM target {printable} must be used.

Regarding Shooting Positions;

Kneeling can be done with one elbow on knee, squatting elbows on knees are OK. The old cross-legged position, elbows on knees, OK, too.  No non-body part under the elbows, AKA NO PRONE, tho, and no resting on bench, or wall, etc.

5} 15-shot group score to be measured as follows. It must be fired within 5 minutes total.  Extreme spread to be calculated measuring outside edge of the farthest shots, outside edge of greasehole to outside edge of greasehole. Then subtract diameter of the bullet.  Total in inches calculated.  You may use a slide rule, ruler, dial caliper or…..yardstick or 20-foot tape measure capable of decimal or fractions to the 16th of an inch but DO NOT POST FRACTIONS!!  Convert all ruler measurements to decimal or they will not be posted.

6}  PICTURES:  You must post  1 picture of the fired target uncluttered by anything else,  1 picture of the target with ruler, etc measuring the extreme spread of the group itself, 1 picture of the rifle.  3 pictures in all MUST be posted.  You MAY also include  a pic of the shooting position taken either while shooting or posed so we can see what position is being used.  That would be helpful and guys will want to see this.  Do it if you can.

Results must be entered  in the following format for posting {so I can copy/paste}. If not in that format your results will not be posted.  

USER NAME – Make Model Caliber Rifle – Barrel Length INCLUDING Muzzle Devices - Sights Make and Type -List of  Important Mods – Ammunition {factory load/handloads} - Shooting Position Used – Group Size Decimal Inches = MOA {100 yard Group size divided by 1.047}

7}  Now, here are the Rifle Divisions;

BARREL LENGTHS INCLUDE BRAKES,SUPPRESSORS, FLASH HIDERS as they all add forward weight.

A} Iron-sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18" INCLUDING BRAKES, SUPPRESSORS, FLASH HIDERS}
B} Iron-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18” and over}
C} Optical-Sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18 inches}
D} Optical-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18 inches and over}

EDIT;   BARREL LENGTH;  MEASURE YOUR BARREL USING THE FOLLOWING METHOD;  POST THAT WITH THE DATA ABOVE;  Use the  “BATFE Method”;  Unload rifle, insert cleaning rod from muzzle to breech face, mark at the muzzle, w/draw and measure from end to mark. For our purposes, "Barrel Length" INCLUDES, REPEAT, INCLUDES MUZZLE DEVICES!

Top 30 Competitors will be posted for each Division.  Same rifle can be used in Iron- and Optical-sighted Divisions with a mere addition/removal of the scope.  Only the best score will be posted from each shooter if multiple attempts are made. Multiple rifles may be used and shooter’s name may be listed for different rifles used.

NON-Magnifying optics including red dots, etc, may be used, but they must be entered under the Optical-Sighted divisions.  Basically, this means "Glass" vs "No Glass" for the sighting divisions. To be clear;  If a rifle has glass of any sort, or an optical sight of any sort, mounted, it will be classed as Optical, whether it was used to sight the rifle or not.

I shot this example today;









EVR – ArmaLite M15NM 5.56 Wylde/NATO - 21 1/8" bbl - Redfield 4-12 scope - No mods, tuned trigger - 69 gr sierra BTHP Handload  – Sitting – 3.524" = 3.366 MOA

Now, finally.......don't let any of the Service rifle DCM Competitors know about this thing or we are all gonna get our butts kicked!!  

Most of all, remember.................Have Fun!!

Remember, BARREL LENGTHS INCLUDE BRAKES,SUPPRESSORS, FLASH HIDERS as they all add forward weight.

A} Iron-sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18" INCLUDING BRAKES, SUPPRESSORS, FLASH HIDERS} AKA "Without Glass On It" Carbine Division

1]  johnfz6 - Anderson frankengun 5.56 NATO - 16" - A2 iron - None - Ultramax 5.56 55gr FMJ - crossed leg sitting - 5.508 = 5.261 MOA  
2]  EVR – Smith & Wesson M&P15 5.56 – 17.5" - Carry handle Rear, Standard FSB - MAGPUL FCS – Handload - Sitting – 5.901" = 5.636 MOA
3]  pedorrero79 - Olympic Arms 5.56 NATO - 17.125" - Magpul Rear/Standard FSB - RRA trigger - Winchester White box 5.56 55gr FMJ - crossed leg sitting - 6.1" = 5.82 MOA
4]  Weldingrod - RRA Mid Length A2 Carbine - Barrel 17 1/2" - Irons - Light weight profile barrel, CTR stockt- Federal XM193 - Sitting - 6.4375" = 6.149 MOA
5]  Keeyote – M&P 15 5.56 Nato – 17.5"- Magpul BUIS, Standard FSB -Bone Stock – 69gr Nosler HPBT Match Handloads - Sitting – 6.78" = 6.47 MOA
6]  jukeboxx13-BCM/DD ELW 16"-Magpul MBUS PRO BUIS-Geissele SSA-Siting-M193 55 FMJ-8.50"=7.94 MOA
7]  L_JE - Spikes/Adco 9mm - 7.5" total bbl AR Pistol- Magpul BUPS - Winchester 115FMJ - sitting - 9.77" = 9.33 MOA
8]  Comando293 - PSA mid-length 5.56 Nato - 17.75" barrel OAL - carry handle/A2 fsb - ALG AC trigger - 55gr. AE XM193- sitting - 12.46 inches = 11.90 MOA
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B} Iron-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18” and over} AKA "Without Glass On It" Rifle Division



1] Sirveaux - DPMS/J&T A2 Clone - 20" HB - A2 iron sights - 62 or 64 gr Speer or Federal loose ammo - Sitting - 4.8395" = 4.622 MOA
2] EVR - Armalite AR10A4 7.62 NATO Caliber- 20" bbl - Irons {A2 Front installed by ADCO} - Speer 150 BTSP Handload - Sitting -  5.924 ES = 5.364 MOA
3] L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 20.125" total bbl - Troy BUIS - RRA 2 stage trigger - Federal Bulk .223 55FMJ - sitting - 6.15" = 5.87 MOA
4] Weldingrod - RRA Standard A2 - Barrel 21 1/2" - Irons - Barrel turned down by Adco to split difference between A1 and Gov profile - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 6.5625" = 6.268 MOA
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C} Optical-Sighted Carbine Division {bbls under 18 inches} AKA "With Glass On It" Carbine Division



1] EVR – S&W M&P15 – 17 1/2" - Burris 3-9 fullfield - Magpul FCS – PMC 55 FMJ - Sitting – 3.435" = 3.069 MOA
2] johnfz6 -Stag/YHM/DPMS frankengun 5.56 - 16" barrel-BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope - Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger-handload w/ Hornady 55gr FMJBT-crossed leg sitting- 4.012" = 3.832MOA
3] johnfz6 - LRB/JSE Surp. 5.56 - 17.75" - Vortex Strikefire red dot - no mods - handload w/55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 4.169 = 3.982 MOA
4] Weldingrod - RRA 556 carbine - Barrel 17 1/2" - Aimpoint T1 - Light weight profile barrel, Magpul handguards and CTR stock - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 4.8125" = 4.596 MOA
5] Smallwoods – Miscellaneous AR-15 - Lothar Walther 17.13in - Leupold VX-3 1.75-6 - Geisselle DMR trigger - Fiocchi 223 55gn FMJBT - seated, elbows in front of knees – 5.4 Inches = 5.2 MOA
6] krichbaum - frankengun 5.56 - 17.5" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - handload 55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 5.476" = 5.230 MOA
7] Rksonex- Frankengun 5.56 mm NATO- 16.1" BBL - Aimpoint M2- Tula 55gr .223- Standing Isosceles- 6" = 5.73 MOA
8] secretwheelman - M4A1 Block II clone - BCM SOCOM 14.5" w/ SF3P: 16.7" - TA01NSN acog - no mods - Factory XM193 - Kneeling - 7.652" = 7.308 MOA
9] jself24 - Delton Mid Length 5.56 - 17.25" Barrel - EoTech (no magnifier) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 8.40" = 8.02 MOA
10] jukeboxx13-BCM/DD ELW 16"-Aimpoint T1/Eotech G33-Geissele SSA-Siting-M193 55 FMJ-12.50"=11.94 MOA
11] jself24 - Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf- 17.875" Barrel - Vortex SPARC with 2x Magnifier - RRA 2stage Trigger - 335gr Rainer FP Handload - Sitting - 12.62" = 12.05 MOA
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D} Optical-Sighted Rifle Division {bbls 18 inches and over} AKA "With Glass On It" Rifle Division



1] EVR – ArmaLite M15NM 5.56 NATO - 21 1/8" BBL - Redfield 4-12 scope - No mods, tuned trigger - 69 gr sierra BTHP Handload – Sitting – 3.524" = 3.366 MOA
2] L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 27.75" total bbl (incl. YHM suppressor) - Vortex PST 2.5-10x - RRA 2 stage trigger - Fiocchi 77SMK - sitting - 3.78" = 3.61 MOA
3] Weldingrod - BCM A4 556 upper and RRA lower - Barrel 21 1/2" - Aimpoint M4S - Government profile barrel, RRA 2 stage trigger - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 4.625" = 4.417 MOA
4] krichbaum - frankengun 5.45x39 - 18" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - Surplus 7n6 - crossed leg sitting - 4.496" = 4.294 MOA
5] L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 20.125" total bbl - Vortex PST 2.5-10x - RRA 2 stage trigger - Federal Bulk .223 55FMJ - sitting - 4.78" = 4.57 MOA  
6] Weldingrod - RRA Standard A4 223 Wylde - Barrel 21 1/2" - Leupold Mk 4 4.5-14 - Free float tube, SS HBAR - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 6.437" = 6.148 MOA
7] Weldingrod - Smith & Wesson M&P 10 - Barrel 20 - Aimpoint M4S - Wison TTU 2-stage - Black Hills Match - Sitting - 7.28125" = 6.954 MOA
8] EVR – ArmaLite AR10 .308 – 21 5/8" BBL - Redfield 3-9 - No mods, Tuned Trigger only – Speer 150 BTSP handload – Sitting- 7.520" = 7.18 MOA
9] jself24 - RRA Varmint .223 Wylde - 20" Barrel - Vortex Viper 6.5-20x (shot at 6.5x) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 9.65" = 9.21 MOA
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In! Place holder for later...

I hurried up and posted my example in the Optical sighted division so I can claim "1st Place" for at least a few minutes!!!  

Jump on board, fellows!

I will give this a go!...placeholder

Headed to the range tomorrow will give this a try.  place holder

It is a blast, and...challenging!!

We were shooting our annual hunting qualifications {on the Norwegian Government reindeer target yesterday} when we finalized the rules.  These are shot from 100 meters.  Here is my qualification target shot with my AR10;



Up close;



Only five shots are required, and I did good, right?  

Well,,,,,,,

When I shot the 15-shot ARFCOM NON-MOA SHTF Challenge, uh...not quite so good!!  LOL.  Those last 5 or 6 shots have a tendency to wander from home...    I gotta reshoot this one!!







EVR – ArmaLite AR10 .308 – Redfield 3-9 - No mods, Tuned Trigger only – Speer 150 BTSP handload  – 7.520" = 7.18 MOA

Hey, can some nice guy who has a clue about computers post me a official Arfcom target link so i can stick it in the original post?

I do not know how to do that.

Thanks!

In on this! Placeholder for what I hope won't be a target with less than 15 holes in it.

EXCELLENT thread EVR.

I will participate ASAP... When I get my salary and I'm able to buy more ammo...

No sling support at all?

OK, I'm in , sometime in the next month or two.

My question.

What about non magnified optics, like Aimpoint, Eotech, Meprolight M21 etc. ?

Is there a separate division?

Good question;

We passed that around a bit and came up with....

"No".

Irons or Optics only.

All this stuff gets arbitrary for sure, but the reasoning was this;  

The Challenge almost was a Single Division since the real issue is "real deal" shooting, not breaking the shooting down into handicapped divisions.  I was of a mind to just leave it one division but went with the Carbine/Rifle and Iron/Optic breakdown as the "final word".  this was the same reason 100 YARD or OVER was finalized.  That puts the bite on guys that don't have access to a 100 yard range, but we had to break it down somehow.  Same thing with the TIME limitation of 5 minutes.  this was to insure the gun is still warm and no advantage was gained by shooting a cool gun each two, three or five rounds.   The point in this thing is obvious;

Zombies ALWAYS travel in packs of 15, and they ALWAYS go to ground at 100 yards or more, and they NEVER give you more than 5 minutes before they start laying into you with their MG42's, so with those realities in the forefront, decisions were made...

But shootem anyway!!!

Just list your sighting system and folks can see where they place.

Remember, this is for FUN!

Thought I'd ask, since most do use some sort of one. . I don't think I can see the front sight with my eyes right now, but the reticle on my sight is clear, usually. I can look and see though. lol if not, I'll just use the optic, and list it.

Thanks

I think this is flawed. You will have guys competing against each other with every caliber choice possible.

OP used a .308 and a 5.56 and included the results in the same category. Can't see how this will give any meaningful data by grouping everything together.

It's equally hard to shoot consistent groups with any caliber. Especially without rests, I don't see the issue.

Groups, I never think much of it when applied to combat shooting in wich only hits count..if you can group within 5 inches or a little less off hand while moving thats good shooting to me if you can do that out to at least 25 yds.90 percent or maybe more of all gun fights take place well under 50 yds so I practice within those real world standards.Moving around carrying a load ie exerting yourself physically will also affect how you shoot when on the move.

Caliber is no issue.  

All pitted against each other.  Strikes on target in this thing count.



Look, this is not about using a rifle on a pistol course.  It is about having some fun and shooting at what is arguably the SHORTEST legitimate RIFLE range possible, to get as many fellows involved as possible.

Let's not ANALyze it too much.  SHOOT it and see what conclusions we can draw afterwards and...

Have fun!!  

Placeholder

NONE.  NO SLING SUPPORT AT ALL!!!

Thanks Eric.

I do not know how to post a link to a printable PDF target.

Can you help with that?

BillyJack has the PDF.

Thanks again.

Rksonex- Frankengun 5.56 mm NATO- Aimpoint M2- Tula 55gr .223- Standing Isosceles- 6" = 5.73 MOA

IN! If someone would post up the target i would go out to the range this afternoon and try it out.

ETA: I'm back from the range and I don't think I did too bad.

Specs on the Frankengun:

14.7" CMMG M4 barrel with Pined A2
Troy VTAC Alpha rail 13"
Aero Precision Upper
CMMG BCG and CH
Essential arms lower with PSA innerds and MIL-Spec trigger.
Old Aimpoint M2 off of Ebay in a Primary Arms mount.

Ammo:

Cheep 55gr FMJ Tula

Position: Standing Isosceles

The Target: Measured exactly 6" biggest spread on 5.73 MOA

Oh, I like this.

HELP!

Guys, I don't know how to do this so if somebody can give us a link with a 6-inch ARCOM boltface/"gear" we'd sure appreciate it.

I have to head out and work the cookshack at the rodeo today so will be gone.  If somebody posts a link, when i get back I'll copy/paste it into the original thread starters.

Thanks in advance!

 































 

Has to be an official ARFCOM SYMBOL!!!

I won't get wound up about the exact size but make it around 6 inches across.  the point is that targets DO matter, and this puts all on the same playing field.  Yes, sorry, it is a rule.  

I just increased by % one of the tiny jobs from the 1 MOA thread.  Sooner or later I hope somebody bails us out with a printable PDF or something.

sorry guys i am clueless as to how to get that done.

Remember;

Must be "OFFICIAL ARFCOM TARGET".

 

Thanks, I got it and replied....

Will check in later!

Placeholder for a Iron Sight carbine I finally finished

Spot saver.... Only 3 months till I can do this. Damn Afghanistan....

I've made the target. Will add a link in a few.


















 

Sucks that we can't use red dot optics, but good thing I just bought a carry handle to pair with my FSB.

Thank you very much.

 

Back for a minute to get some radios.

THANKS MUAD!!!



Yuo CAN use any optics you want, but they go under "Optics" division.  That's all.  It is OK to use any type of sight but the divisions are basically "Glass" vs "No Glass".

O ok I get it now. On page 1 you said no to a seprate division for red dot optics.

 




 

Cool!

Or.....shoot optics for one, and remove the sight and shoot iron sights for the other.  you can do that.  OK to use the same rifle TWICE as long as you shoot in two different divisions appropriate to the gun setup.

+1 Thanks I am headed out to the range to try it out!

In for the astigmatismly challenged over 65 open division next year.

Well in Highpower competition the standing position doesn't allow sling support (though it requires the sling be installed) so this will be a placeholder for that.

He used a dead horse for a rest a couple of times

In place holder. This is going to be a riot.

I'm in i just have to get home to do this. Will be home the 10th.

Placeholder

Great!!!

Except...Please follow the format so I can post your results.

Sorry I thought the top line was the only format required. My bad.

No, my bad!

I totally missed that line!!

Sorry!

Post a pic with the measured/ruler on the extreme holes to keep us all on the same page.

Also, you don't have to, but just for interest sake, post a pic if you can of your shooting stance.  I think that will be of interest to a lot of other shooters.

Thanks!

Obviously.

But it is steadier than offhand.  Or sitting, etc.

Good to know! I will try to get out to the range again this week and post more pics with a different rifle.
ETA the rifle I shot that group with is Optics Carbine not Optics rifle.