[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CWO5 Wade creates a new unit using Marines from 1/6, called Über squad issued suppressed M27s with D60s. (Page 2 of 8)
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If they want to get any useable information from this experiment they need to fill this team with men who have both actual combat experience and solid GT scores. Inexperienced boots or drooling dumbasses won't get you anything worthwhile. That's where they are pulling from. |
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How good are the Marines in 1/6? That's where they are pulling from. Quoted:
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If they want to get any useable information from this experiment they need to fill this team with men who have both actual combat experience and solid GT scores. Inexperienced boots or drooling dumbasses won't get you anything worthwhile. That's where they are pulling from. |
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No, the D-60 is superior in every way to the Surefire mags. You will use the D-60 as the first magazine in your rifle then when it is empty go to the 30 rounders. Quoted:
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Drums are a royal PITA to carry.... I'd say Surefire coffin style mags would be a better choice... or just reload your 30 rounders that already carry well on the body. You will use the D-60 as the first magazine in your rifle then when it is empty go to the 30 rounders. 
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I don't understand the 60's. The 40's would seem to make much better sense. It's a PITA to carry that drum around. My 100 is reliable at least, but yeah it's a heavy SOB loaded. I think 300rds for a basic load would kick ass if the weight increase is minimal Eta. A p40s with 40 77 grain hpbt bullets weight 1.5lbs Even if we go to 4 p40s and a d60 I'd say it's a win. Less reloading when shooting is a good thing. |
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CWO5 must have been reading all the threads on this site about the HPA and heard the statements from everyone to suppress everything. |
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I didn't get that particular idea from this site, but there are a ton of great ideas mentioned here which I'm actually going to try. I love the idea of the D-60 then quick transitions to the 40 rounders. We are going to try that! And no, I don't work for HK and I'm not going to work for them when I retire. There is much we cannot say on this forum and the much of the "missing" information would actually help our cause. We are simply not allowed to publicly discuss many of the concepts we're working on, so in the meantime, we often appear to be idiots. I get a laugh, though, every time i see someone post something out of frustration when we're actually either doing exactly what they are posting about or we're about to try it. Quoted:
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CWO5 must have been reading all the threads on this site about the HPA and heard the statements from everyone to suppress everything. 
Didn't know unicorns existed on ARFCOM! ETA after shooting the shit with the gunners at TBS I'd be surprised if most weren't Arfcommers actually. 
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Didn't know unicorns existed on ARFCOM! ETA after shooting the shit with the gunners at TBS I'd be surprised if most weren't Arfcommers actually. |
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I didn't get that particular idea from this site, but there are a ton of great ideas mentioned here which I'm actually going to try. I love the idea of the D-60 then quick transitions to the 40 rounders. We are going to try that! And no, I don't work for HK and I'm not going to work for them when I retire. There is much we cannot say on this forum and much of the "missing" information would actually help our cause. We are simply not allowed to publicly discuss many of the concepts we're working on, so in the meantime, we often appear to be idiots. I get a laugh, though, every time i see someone post something out of frustration when we're actually either doing exactly what they are posting about or we're about to try it. Quoted:
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CWO5 must have been reading all the threads on this site about the HPA and heard the statements from everyone to suppress everything. As a Sawgunner/0311 I am a firm believer that firepower rules. If I had to give up my 200rd belts I'd want a d60 followed by 40s. Glad I could help 
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Yep, I lurk in the shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if many Marine Gunners are silent members of this site. There are some brilliant contributors with some excellent ideas and we are paying attention, much more so than one might think. Since I am required to be spread very thin across many weapon systems, training programs, and all sorts of other stuff, I don't have the time to become quite the expert as many are on this site. I also enjoy the vitriolic comments since once I "burn through" the static, there is often some truth in the root comment or there is an important perception which is the cause of the expressed frustration. Sylvan, in general, is one of my favorite contributors. I enjoy his sense of humor and he's pretty damned intelligent, jaded as he is. Even when he's slamming on the Marine Corps, he's more right than I prefer to admit. We are a work in progress. I often call us, the "US Marine Corps --DRAFT" since we're never finished. There is much more to the "Uber Squad" story; most notably the training changes that I must conduct in order to ensure all of the Marines know how to execute all of the combat tasks I've added to them by increasing the capability of their weapons and optics. We are going to install 1-8 variable power optics on their M27's, for one example, and that is going to require more training. Anyone can be the Automatic Rifleman, the Grenadier, the DM, or the Rifleman based on the situation and we've never expected so much from an Infantryman before. I'm also going to have to take a hard look at who is in the Squad...their age, maturity, intelligence, experience, how much we pay them, and their rank, etc. We are going to do that and I am sure to piss some people off. |
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That guy has ben running the same range for 30 years? wtf.... |
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Semper fi! As a Sawgunner/0311 I am a firm believer that firepower rules. If I had to give up my 200rd belts I'd want a d60 followed by 40s. Glad I could help |
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Yep, I lurk in the shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if many Marine Gunners are silent members of this site. There are some brilliant contributors with some excellent ideas and we are paying attention, much more so than one might think. Since I am required to be spread very thin across many weapon systems, training programs, and all sorts of other stuff, I don't have the time to become quite the expert as many are on this site. I also enjoy the vitriolic comments since once I "burn through" the static, there is often some truth in the root comment or there is an important perception which is the cause of the expressed frustration. Sylvan, in general, is one of my favorite contributors. I enjoy his sense of humor and he's pretty damned intelligent, jaded as he is. Even when he's slamming on the Marine Corps, he's more right than I prefer to admit. We are a work in progress. I often call us, the "US Marine Corps --DRAFT" since we're never finished. There is much more to the "Uber Squad" story; most notably the training changes that I must conduct in order to ensure all of the Marines know how to execute all of the combat tasks I've added to them by increasing the capability of their weapons and optics. We are going to install 1-8 variable power optics on their M27's, for one example, and that is going to require more training. Anyone can be the Automatic Rifleman, the Grenadier, the DM, or the Rifleman based on the situation and we've never expected so much from an Infantryman before. I'm also going to have to take a hard look at who is in the Squad...their age, maturity, intelligence, experience, how much we pay them, and their rank, etc. We are going to do that and I am sure to piss some people off. 40-rounders also seem like there's a lot of potential to them, given as they have none of the size and reliability issues of the casket-type magazines, and the feed angle should reduce issues with M855A1... |
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Yep, I lurk in the shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if many Marine Gunners are silent members of this site. There are some brilliant contributors with some excellent ideas and we are paying attention, much more so than one might think. Since I am required to be spread very thin across many weapon systems, training programs, and all sorts of other stuff, I don't have the time to become quite the expert as many are on this site. I also enjoy the vitriolic comments since once I "burn through" the static, there is often some truth in the root comment or there is an important perception which is the cause of the expressed frustration. Sylvan, in general, is one of my favorite contributors. I enjoy his sense of humor and he's pretty damned intelligent, jaded as he is. Even when he's slamming on the Marine Corps, he's more right than I prefer to admit. We are a work in progress. I often call us, the "US Marine Corps --DRAFT" since we're never finished. There is much more to the "Uber Squad" story; most notably the training changes that I must conduct in order to ensure all of the Marines know how to execute all of the combat tasks I've added to them by increasing the capability of their weapons and optics. We are going to install 1-8 variable power optics on their M27's, for one example, and that is going to require more training. Anyone can be the Automatic Rifleman, the Grenadier, the DM, or the Rifleman based on the situation and we've never expected so much from an Infantryman before. I'm also going to have to take a hard look at who is in the Squad...their age, maturity, intelligence, experience, how much we pay them, and their rank, etc. We are going to do that and I am sure to piss some people off. 
Good luck with your testing Gunner.
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Glad to see you hopping in here @0306 wish you could dispell some of the rumors regarding the 416 and it's supposed rate of breaking bolts like a fat kid at a candy store or all the other things we hear here.
I would love some real information made available for all to see regarding the M27 compared to the M4. |
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I didn't get that particular idea from this site, but there are a ton of great ideas mentioned here which I'm actually going to try. I love the idea of the D-60 then quick transitions to the 40 rounders. We are going to try that! And no, I don't work for HK and I'm not going to work for them when I retire. There is much we cannot say on this forum and much of the "missing" information would actually help our cause. We are simply not allowed to publicly discuss many of the concepts we're working on, so in the meantime, we often appear to be idiots. I get a laugh, though, every time i see someone post something out of frustration when we're actually either doing exactly what they are posting about or we're about to try it.
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its a play on super squad which is basically a battalions best squad that they send to compete against other battalions across the Corps.
I am guessing they are going to take 1/6's super squad and have them run the same ops and see how they do, but then again Gunner Wade Mentioned range 400 so it might just be something they will run during their cax. |
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I suspect that it's possible to carry a lot more ammunition in the same space with 40s compared to D60s. This is still a step in the right direction. Stick mags work better for carrying. |
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This is replacing the M16/M4/M249. Totally different weapons, totally different roles. You arent going to get nearly the sustained fire out of any m16 variant that you will out of a 249, as such, you arent going to be using them for the same things......even if you put a 200rd drum in the m16 variant.....it still isnt a squad gun and never will be. |
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An unloaded m27 is 8lbs
A Leupold 1-8 is 23 oz A larue mount is 7 oz A loaded 30rd mag is a pound That's almost 11lbs before lights, IR, sling, etc A loaded M4 with acog is 8.5lbs I know guys love the 1-8x optics but it's double the weight of an acog. Still lighter than the 249. So there is that. |
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An m4 isnt going to replace a 249. Totally different weapons, totally different roles. You arent going to get nearly the sustained fire out of any m16 variant that you will out of a 249, as such, you arent going to be using them for the same things......even if you put a 200rd drum in the m16 variant.....it still isnt a squad gun and never will be. The D60/P40 will just be the icing on the cake. Even the Army is looking into a mag fed machine gun to replace the M249. |
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An unloaded m27 is 8lbs A Leupold 1-8 is 23 oz A larue mount is 7 oz A loaded 30rd mag is a pound That's almost 11lbs before lights, IR, sling, etc A loaded M4 with acog is 8.5lbs I know guys love the 1-8x optics but it's double the weight of an acog. Still lighter than the 249. So there is that. |
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Thanks M27 has proven to be far better at suppression than the M249 ever could be for the Marine Corps. The D60/P40 will just be the icing on the cake. Even the Army is looking into a mag fed machine gun to replace the M249. Quoted:
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An m4 isnt going to replace a 249. Totally different weapons, totally different roles. You arent going to get nearly the sustained fire out of any m16 variant that you will out of a 249, as such, you arent going to be using them for the same things......even if you put a 200rd drum in the m16 variant.....it still isnt a squad gun and never will be. The D60/P40 will just be the icing on the cake. Even the Army is looking into a mag fed machine gun to replace the M249. |
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My loaded M4A1clone with a M68CCO, KAC VFG, and Scout Light runs 9lb 5oz. Quoted:
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An unloaded m27 is 8lbs A Leupold 1-8 is 23 oz A larue mount is 7 oz A loaded 30rd mag is a pound That's almost 11lbs before lights, IR, sling, etc A loaded M4 with acog is 8.5lbs I know guys love the 1-8x optics but it's double the weight of an acog. Still lighter than the 249. So there is that. |
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Yep, I lurk in the shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if many Marine Gunners are silent members of this site. There are some brilliant contributors with some excellent ideas and we are paying attention, much more so than one might think. Since I am required to be spread very thin across many weapon systems, training programs, and all sorts of other stuff, I don't have the time to become quite the expert as many are on this site. I also enjoy the vitriolic comments since once I "burn through" the static, there is often some truth in the root comment or there is an important perception which is the cause of the expressed frustration. Sylvan, in general, is one of my favorite contributors. I enjoy his sense of humor and he's pretty damned intelligent, jaded as he is. Even when he's slamming on the Marine Corps, he's more right than I prefer to admit. We are a work in progress. I often call us, the "US Marine Corps --DRAFT" since we're never finished. There is much more to the "Uber Squad" story; most notably the training changes that I must conduct in order to ensure all of the Marines know how to execute all of the combat tasks I've added to them by increasing the capability of their weapons and optics. We are going to install 1-8 variable power optics on their M27's, for one example, and that is going to require more training. Anyone can be the Automatic Rifleman, the Grenadier, the DM, or the Rifleman based on the situation and we've never expected so much from an Infantryman before. I'm also going to have to take a hard look at who is in the Squad...their age, maturity, intelligence, experience, how much we pay them, and their rank, etc. We are going to do that and I am sure to piss some people off. |
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An unloaded m27 is 8lbs A Leupold 1-8 is 23 oz A larue mount is 7 oz A loaded 30rd mag is a pound That's almost 11lbs before lights, IR, sling, etc A loaded M4 with acog is 8.5lbs I know guys love the 1-8x optics but it's double the weight of an acog. Still lighter than the 249. So there is that. |
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An m4 isnt going to replace a 249. Totally different weapons, totally different roles. Quoted:
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This is replacing the M16/M4/M249. Totally different weapons, totally different roles. He didn't say the M4 is replacing the M249. He said the M27 is replacing the M4, and the M16, and the M249. |
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Suggest you read joglee's post again. He didn't say the M4 is replacing the M249. He said the M27 is replacing the M4, and the M16, and the M249. Either way, the M27 can fulfill practically every roll a small caliber rifle a unit needs single handily. There will of course still be large caliber guns like the 240, and 7.62 SDMs. |
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There is much more to the "Uber Squad" story; most notably the training changes that I must conduct in order to ensure all of the Marines know how to execute all of the combat tasks I've added to them by increasing the capability of their weapons and optics. We are going to install 1-8 variable power optics on their M27's, for one example, and that is going to require more training. Anyone can be the Automatic Rifleman, the Grenadier, the DM, or the Rifleman based on the situation and we've never expected so much from an Infantryman before. I'm also going to have to take a hard look at who is in the Squad...their age, maturity, intelligence, experience, how much we pay them, and their rank, etc. We are going to do that and I am sure to piss some people off. In a number of these threads, some of the more experienced individuals inevitably observe that the military is trying to solve a training issue with technology. There are probably opportunities for improvement in that area, but a website centered around on a single type of small arm of the military might not have the perspective that the leadership has in allocating resources. Training is not free, and the aptitude of the individual can be a significant factor in the benefit of that training (especially as it becomes more advanced/technical). Much of what the military is training are depreciable skillsets that have to be maintained. The retention of these individuals that you have now trained to a higher level will likely be the overriding factor in sustainability of this model - one which you are already processing as you examine the pay, rank, etc. (the fact that a person has a limited time they can effectively perform the job even if you retain them is also a factor not present in most industry jobs). Clearly there is an optimization of how much of a training budget you can allocate to various segments - it simply isn't sustainable to invest CAG level training in every boot that doesn't plan to stay on for more than one enlistment. Age and experience are likely a factor as well - it is difficult to teach (learn) various aspects without certain time on task. We see this play out with various elements in the services that have people compete to get in (more elite) and have access to greater resources for both equipment and training (sustainable because of the smaller numbers). Trading technology for extremely high levels of training might be appropriate in some circumstances - especially if that technology solution provides a tangible benefit to your least experienced/trained individuals. For instance, if one were to perfect a TrackingPoint type capability, then that would decrease the training requirement (both initial and ongoing training) to employ longer range shots (going full fleet with ACOG's might of had some fraction of this benefit vs irons). Anyway, it is interesting is you appear to be leaning toward a direction that is not unlike the transformation occurring in many jobs of our economy. A trend where there is greater value in increasing the complexity of the job to gain even greater efficiency/productivity/etc. In a way, this is one face of the "AI taking our jobs" that we've discussed on GD. The global trend of less people becoming much more effective/productive/etc as you trade technology/training/aptitude (each of which has their own expense!) for numbers. I'm semi-joking that "every Joe a swat/cag/ST6/etc." (obviously you will always have initial, intermediate and advanced levels of jobs/employees) - but I suspect we will continue to see an overall trend of fewer numbers of people (you have to if the budget is equal) but with greater capability (i.e. robots/sensors helping with guard duty, etc.). Potentially this exposes less people to the risk, but the number of people that are capable of doing even the initial job becomes smaller as well. The result being those fewer people are able to demand greater salaries (which leadership can justify because the numbers are smaller). Again, it is interesting to me how this parallels resource allocation/employee mix thoughts of other industries, and the similar transformations they are examining/undergoing. |
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Drums are a royal PITA to carry.... I'd say Surefire coffin style mags would be a better choice... or just reload your 30 rounders that already carry well on the body. |
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Either way, the M27 can fulfill practically every roll a small caliber rifle a unit needs single handily. Personally, I believe that a closed-bolt, magazine-fed gun is going to come up short in the suppresion role. As for the other "jobs", M4 with the same optic could do just as well, particularly with a better trigger like M27 has. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CWO5 Wade creates a new unit using Marines from 1/6, called Über squad issued suppressed M27s with D60s. (Page 2 of 8)
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