[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Deer regs we don't need (Page 1 of 2)
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Hunters have long used muzzleloaders to harvest big game. Today’s muzzleloaders are made of advanced materials, and their improved designs enable hunters to ethically harvest deer at significant distances. Yet states like Colorado, Idaho, Minnesota, South Dakota and Washington limit their effectiveness by prohibiting the use of scopes during black-powder season.
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So was the original idea behind the muzzleloading season to give the MLers a better chance at the deer with weapons of lesser range?
If so, and the range has changed to where they need scopes, then isn't the proper solution to just eliminate the ML season and put them in with the rest? |
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Quoted: So was the original idea behind the muzzleloading season to give the MLers a better chance at the deer with weapons of lesser range? If so, and the range has changed to where they need scopes, then isn't the proper solution to just eliminate the ML season and put them in with the rest? That's what I was thinking. |
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Exactly. |
| The reason muzzleloader seasons became seperate was the same for archers. Give them a chance to take to the woods in much smaller numbers and kill a woods cow. Back when most states enacted a muzzleloader only season all you had were old sidelock muzzle loaders. Then the gun/hunting industry got involved and completely perverted the original reason. It is no longer the season it was intended, it has evolved. We just have to live with it. |
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A scope would allow a hunter a slightly better chance of making a humane shot, yes. This is particularly important with a weapon that does not allow a rapid follow-up shot on wounded game.
People who don't hunt, and a sad minority of those that do, have a fucked up sense of sportsmanship in that they advocate "sporting" methods that are far more likely to result in wounded animals in the mistaken belief that they're doing the animals a favor. |
| Once a person reaches thier mid 40's virtually all of us need some kind of help getting a clear sight picture. And a scope with an adjustable objective lens seams to be just the ticket for yours truely, especially now that I'm in my 50's and I can't even see this damn computer screen clearly without a mild prescription, I support at least being allowed to use a 1x scope. Was a time when I had eyes like an eagle, but those times are long gone, and what is the age of the average PA hunter? It's 50 some years old I do believe. JMTC |
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The only regulation deer hunting should have is that they should be shot where they stand. Nuisance animal. I don't even hunt deer. I agree with this. We're in no danger of running out of deer. Pop 'em and drop 'em. Use anything from rocks to rockets. I wish that was true for muleys. But some of the rules back east are really stupid. |
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Quoted: Contrast those crazy restrictions to Mississippi. Any single shot, exposed hammer rifle firing a >.35 cal bullet is legal. So, my Zeiss scoped TC Encore in 35 Whelen is considered a 'primitive weapon' in Mississippi !!!!!! That's not so much because of the weapon as it is the knuckle draggers that live there.  |
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Quoted: I'd say that scope aids in shot placement hopefully resulting in more clean kills. Since being a good shot with irons is not a requirement to hunt, a scope might reduce the number of deer that end up wounded, gutshot, etc. I doubt that. People who try stupid shots with irons will try stupid shots with a scope. A jackass is a jackass regardless of his equipment. |
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It tends to be the muzzleloaders who are most divided on the issue. Some want traditional style only while others are happy to use whatever technology is most advanced and still legal.
I personally dont care anymore since back home there are too damn many deer and I really dont want to hit any more. |
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during traditional season I use....... ( late 1700s early 1800s ) http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu24/bob243_photo/002%20-%20Lancaster%20Hunting%20rifle/100_1410-1.jpg during the early season where everyone uses their inline, I use............ mid 1800s http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu24/bob243_photo/004%20-%20Tennessee%20Mountain/100_1424-1.jpg The most modern ML I own (built) is an underhammer which would date 1860s-1870s Ah I knew a fellow PA resident would chime in here. The PA GAMER commission certainly has some weird rules. No semi auto anything (except shot guns), Primitive weapons season (muzzle loaders), yadda, yadda. I see that they are beginning to lighten up on the regs. Hey who knows? Maybe by the year 2200 we'll be allowed to use semi autos on deer...... |
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Only speaking about Michigans regulations.....but the in-line ML has gotten out of control. The original intent was a primitive season. Inlines are now so efficient, in some cases just as efficient as the shotguns required in our southern 1/2.
My rules would be : percussion or flintlock only, period scopes allowed. |
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If the intent is to allow those that prefer to hunt with a traditional cap or flintlock ML then no scopes much less in-lines.
If the intent is to kill as many deer as possible then do away with the so-called ML season altogether as it is a BS season. With the modern in-line and optic the only difference between ML season and regular rifle season is the better weather. 
Back before money influanced the game I really enjoyed our ML season. Cap or flint and no optic or inlines. There was a week in between ML and rilfe seasons back then. |
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Quoted: Hunters have long used muzzleloaders to harvest big game. Today’s muzzleloaders are made of advanced materials, and their improved designs enable hunters to ethically harvest deer at significant distances. Yet states like Colorado, Idaho, Minnesota, South Dakota and Washington limit their effectiveness by prohibiting the use of scopes during black-powder season. OK, I'm gonna get flamed for this, but.... It's muzzleloading season. It's a season all to itself because back decades ago it was considered primitive and more difficult, like archery, so it got an early season. The reason for the separate season was because they were less effective. Everyone was using old style trade rifles and flintlocks, many from kits. Now, with the modern guns using 209 primers, scopes, pyrodex pellets, saboted bullets, and every other possible advancement short of a brass cartridge, the guns perform nearly as well as any other rifle. In my opinion, any gun not truly primitive shouldn't be allowed in the woods during muzzle loading season. The modern guns are just taking advantage of a season that was never intended to include them. |
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OK, then no compound bows in archery season.
Or even those newfangled recurves. Long bows, or sharp sticks only
In many areas, deer herds are at all time highs. When I started hunting, we had a week, and annual kill here was under 10,000, with well over 100,000 deer hunters. Now we have 5 months of deer season, someareas with NO limit on does, take around 100,000 deer per year, with about 25% LESS hunters. Things seem to be working as is. 
That said, I have probably killed 75+ deer WITH a muzzleloader, well over half with a scope. But sometimes, I take an old Hawken style rifle, round ball and buckhorns, and get after them the old fashioned way, on foot. State should set seasons and harvest limits, and let hunters decide HOW they meet those objectives.
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Muzzleloader seasons were started as an outlet for hunting with primitive weapons during a separate season that didn't compete with cartridge guns.
The states have always been all over the map, ranging from Pennsylvania's purist approach, to the anything goes in most other states. In the end, that's where the decision belongs, with the citizens of each state. We have more important fights. |
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Might as well add brass casings next. I understand some states have added BP cartridge guns to their "primitive weapons" seasons now. 
Here in MS, you can use anything .35 caliber or larger as long as it's got an exposed hammer and is a single-shot. I don't even think it has to be break-open anymore. Everyone uses T/C Encores in .35 Whelen. Primitive! |
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Here muzzleloading season hardly had any participants 20+yrs ago and most everything out there was very basic hawkin style platforms. Most people were still using patch and roundball. Few people were shooting more than 50yds. Now we have a lot more muzzleloader hunters much improved ignition systems, projectiles, reliable designs and of course optics. I know people shooting over 200yds with muzzleloaders. The newer designs have morphed into single shot rifles. Im fine with these advancements, but lets be honest. Rut time is the easiest/luckiest time to get the dominant bucks. Ad to that more poeple with much more capable weapons and yes, we are culling out desirable genetics too soon.
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Seems to me that if someone wants to hunt primitively, they can. It's not a race, nor is it really a competition. If you want to stalk around the woods, barefoot with a loin cloth and a spear, nothing's stopping you. Similarly, during muzzleloader season, no one is there telling you that you need the most advanced muzzleloader with a Nightforce optic either. I've got mine topped with a 1.5x shotgun scope. Should older people with diminished eye sight be told sorry, I know you can't see the front sight and the target at the same time, but some people want to keep it 1850's style? Nope. If you really want to add a challenge to muzzleloading, do away with the pyrodex pellets.
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I enjoy and prefer rifle hunting, but it's getting less interesting considering that there is at least a month of hunting before I can hit the woods. I did a little primitive muzzleloader hunting and honestly found it to be a little annoying and not much fun...however I do love the old flintlocks. Maybe if I build one I'll get back in to it. My feeling is this: Give the archers a week to themselves (no crossbows), then a week with honestly primitive muzzleloaders - and then start general season. Too many deer? Make a longer general season. Archery and muzzleloading seasons are like handicap parking - they were intended for people with real disadvanrtages, not those that manipulate the system. |
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Quoted: If states have the right - and they do - to set a primitive season, they have the irght to define it, and frankly I wish the NRA would stick to gun rights and leave hunting issues (or non-issues) alone. I will go so far to agree with about 90% of that. However, I think that the NRA weighing in on stupid regulations or the closing of seasons falls within their parameters. For instance a big thing in some states is the banning of lead ammunition for hunting. I think the NRA has a place in fighting things such as that, or on the subject of wolves/mountain lion type stuff. As far as making a fuss over optic restrictions on muzzleloaders, they need to find some more pressing issues.
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Quoted:
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If states have the right - and they do - to set a primitive season, they have the irght to define it, and frankly I wish the NRA would stick to gun rights and leave hunting issues (or non-issues) alone. I will go so far to agree with about 90% of that. However, I think that the NRA weighing in on stupid regulations or the closing of seasons falls within their parameters. For instance a big thing in some states is the banning of lead ammunition for hunting. I think the NRA has a place in fighting things such as that, or on the subject of wolves/mountain lion type stuff. As far as making a fuss over optic restrictions on muzzleloaders, they need to find some more pressing issues. No argument there.
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If states have the right - and they do - to set a primitive season, they have the irght to define it, and frankly I wish the NRA would stick to gun rights and leave hunting issues (or non-issues) alone. Doesn't say they don't have the 'right', that doesn't mean that people have to sit down and shut up and like what's fed to them either. If it means they are more likely to go out and participate and put a shot on target then I think that's fine. Plenty of folks, myself included, that have vison issues with irons. |
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IMHO as generally a non-hunter... I think the idea behind muzzleloading season is to use primitive style weapons... not to game the system to get some extra huntin' time in.
I pose the question... would 'modern' muzzleloading rifles even exist if not for hunting seasons restricted to muzzleloaders? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Deer regs we don't need (Page 1 of 2)
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