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The major problem, THE FUCKING EPA. The paint was non-zinc chromated. Same shit they are forcing down all the military throats. Its fucking garbage. Now with shit paint, without the EPA hated zinc, the aluminum is undergoing galvanic corrosion. Way to go EPA and .mil for listening to them. And cadmium. I want my cadmium plating back, dammit! And lead. Lead free solder totally sucks. And all sorts of nifty chemicals that go into explosives and propellants that we can't use anymore because they give rats cancer. Anyways - F-22 and F-35 and LCS. The problem (as often the case) is Congress. They make all sorts of regulations to appear to prevent fraud (which only makes operating difficult for the honest). It's easy for the big defense contractors, their corrupted retired former DoD program managers, and their cadre of lawyers to get around them. And then, they start passing the pork projects. No wonder the system is broken and we're pouring trillions down the crapper. |
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The only way that will happen is with ground based RADAR, and that is a problem. That internal volume thing at play again. Especially when it comes to the nose, and the number of T/R modules you can fit. The F-15 has a big aperture. Someone here might know the difference in the size of the antenna's on the F-15 and the F-22. It's not a large number. The physical diameter? Why does it matter? Anyone that really knows isn't going to open their mouth about radar... I love his avatar, it's most fitting. Chinese? Japanese. |
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Says By Tony Capaccio - Dec 15, 2011 12:58 Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT)’s F-22 jet is among several U.S. weapons that are flawed, waste taxpayer dollars and benefit from the military-industrial alliance, Senator John McCain said today. Lockheed’s F-22 "may very well become the most expensive, corroding, hangar queen ever in the history of modern aviation,” McCain, a Republican from Arizona, said in remarks as prepared remarks for delivery on the Senate floor. WTF is up with Bloomberg's editors? They're too busy foaming at the mouth at Perry and writing puff pieces about Mittens. You know –– the important stuff. |
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The only way that will happen is with ground based RADAR, and that is a problem. That internal volume thing at play again. Especially when it comes to the nose, and the number of T/R modules you can fit. The F-15 has a big aperture. Someone here might know the difference in the size of the antenna's on the F-15 and the F-22. It's not a large number. The physical diameter? Why does it matter? Anyone that really knows isn't going to open their mouth about radar... Just thought it to be an odd measure for comparison. |
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What does McCain propose we do? The F-15 is a nearly a 40 year old design. If 25 years from now we're still relying on them as our primary air superiority fighter, we're quite likely going to find ourselves in a really bad situation. So the answer is to keep dumping money into an underperforming program that has about 18% of its flight testing done because there are no other alternatives? I don't think so. No, but putting money into an obsolete weapon that will be unable to compete isn't an answer either. Yes, the F-22 and the F-35 programs both have been mismanaged. Something should be one about that, but I'm worried the leadership is simply going to throw the whole project out and not propose any other solution. You're making the assumption that the F-15 is obsolete. I wouldn't make that assumption. One thing it has going for it is internal volume. Internal volume allows you to stuff all sorts of goodies in it. Just look at the AESA radars that have been added. Hell, look at the engine upgrades other nations have added. Hell, look at the F-15XX. There are plenty of things you can do with the airframe. Yes, it's RCS isn't optimal, but stealth, IMO is over-rated. It is probably the most expensive way to tackle the problem of IADS. A single seat F-15 has a giant equipment bay where the WSO sits in a two seat airplane. There is lots and lots of room for all sorts of equipment containing computers, even ECM. Even the nose barrel probably has space freed up with the installation of production AESA. The airframe will last a long time barring unforeseen load spectra or unusual corrosion environments; we sized the F-15E for 32000 hours total (analytical) life. That's a long time, and the airplanes will become obsolete for some other reason than basic integrity of the primary structure. Serious question: Is it maneuverable enough to dominate dogfights with SU-37s and other aircraft that the American pilots could come up against? That's the reason we built the F-22 right, so that we could continue to dominate enemy aircraft? What dog fights? An AESA equipped F-15 is a giant killer. AESA is that dominant? For clarification, my idea of high tech is MELIOS, SINCGARS, and a PLGR. |
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The Silent Eagle? No. That's newer. They proposed the F-15XX, and demonstrated the F-15 ACTIVE with canards and 3D thrust vectoring. The F-15 ACTIVE supposedly sustained 85 degress AOA. If I understand that, that is pretty fricking maneuverable. |
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...cut... I love his avatar, it's most fitting. Chinese? Japanese. I think my avatar is Korean. Seriously. I know it's not germane to this thread, but I'll see if I can upload a larger version. ETA: I have no idea what that little block of tofu is saying. Anyone know? 
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The future is in UCAVs, McStain probably opposes those too though. Unless they can figure out how to not jam them, UCAV's may be the past after the loss of a sensitive one over Iran this week. It was apparently compromised. Unless they fix that, untill very strong AI become a reality, it may be the end of UAV's. |
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What was/is the stake of McCain's constituents in the F-22 Program? I would be surprised to find McCain's interests in the F-22 to be not aligned with his constituent's interests. One of the major subcontractors has a major operation in Mesa. One devoted to the F-22? |
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What was/is the stake of McCain's constituents in the F-22 Program? I would be surprised to find McCain's interests in the F-22 to be not aligned with his constituent's interests. One of the major subcontractors has a major operation in Mesa. One devoted to the F-22? Yes. But I don't know if parts were made down there. |
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If we ever go to war with someone who has sophisticated air defenses (i.e. china) those f-15's are going to drop like flies. Something to think about. It's a mistake to assume we'll never be in a 'real' war again. yeah, cause we are going downtown bejieng with f35s and f22s. active jamming and integrated strike packages are going to be the only way to defeat real ADA networks. Both of which we are ignoring for air show toys. |
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...cut... I love his avatar, it's most fitting. Chinese? Japanese. I think my avatar is Korean. Seriously. I know it's not germane to this thread, but I'll see if I can upload a larger version. ETA: I have no idea what that little block of tofu is saying. Anyone know? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2551153156_bd30599ee4_o.jpg Definitely Korean - something about their eyes. We have some actual Korean speakers here that can no doubt make sense of it. My Korean is only enough to get me in trouble. Edit: the verb there is "to taste" but Korean verbs are tricky. Maybe "we can taste it with our eyes?" |
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Quoted: Quoted: If we ever go to war with someone who has sophisticated air defenses (i.e. china) those f-15's are going to drop like flies. Something to think about. It's a mistake to assume we'll never be in a 'real' war again. yeah, cause we are going downtown bejieng with f35s and f22s. active jamming and integrated strike packages are going to be the only way to defeat real ADA networks. Both of which we are ignoring for air show toys. I'm sure they won't put their s-300's anywhere special. |
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...cut... I love his avatar, it's most fitting. Chinese? Japanese. I think my avatar is Korean. Seriously. I know it's not germane to this thread, but I'll see if I can upload a larger version. ETA: I have no idea what that little block of tofu is saying. Anyone know? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2551153156_bd30599ee4_o.jpg Definitely Korean - something about their eyes. We have some actual Korean speakers here that can no doubt make sense of it. My Korean is only enough to get me in trouble. I'm sure they can translate it, but I seriously doubt if anyone on Earth can make sense of it. |
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...cut... I love his avatar, it's most fitting. Chinese? Japanese. I think my avatar is Korean. Seriously. I know it's not germane to this thread, but I'll see if I can upload a larger version. ETA: I have no idea what that little block of tofu is saying. Anyone know? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2551153156_bd30599ee4_o.jpg Definitely Korean - something about their eyes. We have some actual Korean speakers here that can no doubt make sense of it. My Korean is only enough to get me in trouble. I'm sure they can translate it, but I seriously doubt if anyone on Earth can make sense of it. 
Ain't that the truth. See my update, FWIW. Oh, I just typed it in Google translate, and I get this: "our eyes can taste." You figure it out. |
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You can see the flavor! Hmmm. That sort of makes sense. I was hoping it was something a bit more metaphysical. A bit of a let down, really. Well, it's good to know that you can see the flavor, because it's tofu, so you sure as hell can't taste the flavor. I'm going to bet that none of us have tasted an F-22. If sledhead gets his tongue stuck on one, I'm going to feel pretty bad for putting that idea out there. |
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You can see the flavor! Ahh, thank you. So "taste" wasn't a verb after all. This is why I have never been back to Korea. I am just guessing Adam and trying to use a bit of logic. I can't read it, I am just assuming since it isn't Japanese, it must make SOME sense! |
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The major problem, THE FUCKING EPA. The paint was non-zinc chromated. Same shit they are forcing down all the military throats. Its fucking garbage. Now with shit paint, without the EPA hated zinc, the aluminum is undergoing galvanic corrosion. Way to go EPA and .mil for listening to them. Seriously, what is going on with our country?  If this is true then this can all be solved with a simple federal government exclusion / exemption letter regarding zinc use. The federal government can preclude itself whenever it wants from things like this. The fact that REPUBLICANS are ignoring this fact and not applying political heat to the Democrats for this absurdity, is complete and utter hog wash. Well, let's just cancel the whole F-22 program because of a zinc phobia That make perfect sense. Yes, lets lose future battles and endanger our country because of a zinc phobia.   WTF!
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You can see the flavor! Ahh, thank you. So "taste" wasn't a verb after all. This is why I have never been back to Korea. I am just guessing Adam and trying to use a bit of logic. I can't read it, I am just assuming since it isn't Japanese, it must make SOME sense! Ahhh... hell, hopefully someone shows up that can explain it to me. If such a person exists on this earth. |
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The next Best Fighter Aircraft in the World is going to cost even more.
The problem with the American aeronautics industry is that it's simply too good. There's a growing discrepancy between what the American aeroindustrialists can produce and what the American public can afford. |
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The next Best Fighter Aircraft in the World is going to cost even more. The problem with the American aeronautics industry is that it's simply too good. There's a growing discrepancy between what the American aeroindustrialists can produce and what the Department of Defense Needs |
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The major problem, THE FUCKING EPA. The paint was non-zinc chromated. Same shit they are forcing down all the military throats. Its fucking garbage. Now with shit paint, without the EPA hated zinc, the aluminum is undergoing galvanic corrosion. Way to go EPA and .mil for listening to them. This, "Environmental and occupational health concerns drove the initial use of a nonchromated primer on the F-22 that did not provide corrosion protection, and the program later switched to a chromated primer. The F-35 has also chosen to use a nonchromated primer that has never been tested on an aircraft in a corrosive operating environment."
This is such kiddie-school shit that it's not even funny. Billions of dollars in a weapons program, and we don't fucking use the best aluminum corrosion-inhibitive paint we know of? 
EDIT: Wait til this shit sits on an LHD deck for a few months. Jesus fucking christ this is embarrassing to even contemplate. |
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That is just a guess on my part. What I don't get is if that is Korean, WTF is that rising sun doing there? That is like a truckload of garlic and crucifixes at a Vampire convention. I should have paid more attention, I lived in Korea for a year. I just saw the sun and thought... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. So you're in debt up to the hilt buying things you might need? I dunno. Last I looked, the Founding Fathers made it clear the #1 priority of any government is the protection of it's citizens freedom and liberties. I could be wrong, but national defense spending is one of those obligatory things.  Welfare and that other shit is not part of Government's responsibilities laid out by the Framers. You know after every war they kept cancelling the Sniper program, saying it wasn't needed. Guess what? The next war, we found out that was a huge mistake. We kept making that same mistake over and over and over again until after the Vietnam war. |
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Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. So you're in debt up to the hilt buying things you might need? I dunno. Last I looked, the Founding Fathers made it clear the #1 priority of any government is the protection of it's citizens freedom and liberties. I could be wrong, but national defense spending is one of those obligatory things. Welfare and that other shit is not part of Government's responsibilities laid out by the Framers. They also provided for elections and Constitutional Amendments, which have led us to where we are today. You can cry about welfare all you want, but the majority of this nation want it, so they'll get it. That leaves the military needing to make sound decisions about procurement, about risk, and about what missions they can and cannot do. We simply can't afford, given the budget that the elected representatives of the people of the United States give us, to buy something that we have and not need. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. So you're in debt up to the hilt buying things you might need? I dunno. Last I looked, the Founding Fathers made it clear the #1 priority of any government is the protection of it's citizens freedom and liberties. I could be wrong, but national defense spending is one of those obligatory things. Welfare and that other shit is not part of Government's responsibilities laid out by the Framers. They also provided for elections and Constitutional Amendments, which have led us to where we are today. You can cry about welfare all you want, but the majority of this nation want it, so they'll get it. That leaves the military needing to make sound decisions about procurement, about risk, and about what missions they can and cannot do. We simply can't afford, given the budget that the elected representatives of the people of the United States give us, to buy something that we have and not need. Well, if you want my honest opinion, I believe the most essential military asset is the Navy and way too much money is being given to the Air Force when it should be given to the Navy. |
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Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. So you're in debt up to the hilt buying things you might need? I dunno. Last I looked, the Founding Fathers made it clear the #1 priority of any government is the protection of it's citizens freedom and liberties. I could be wrong, but national defense spending is one of those obligatory things.
Welfare and that other shit is not part of Government's responsibilities laid out by the Framers. You know after every war they kept cancelling the Sniper program, saying it wasn't needed. Guess what? The next war, we found out that was a huge mistake. We kept making that same mistake over and over and over again until after the Vietnam war. Actually, this is more the equivalent of a fixation in satellite-launched guided missiles for interdiction missions that are more reliably and historically done by keeping teams of trained and proficient snipers. Nobody is saying the US does not need air superiority (except maybe Ron Paul, and only indirectly by reading his subtext). The concern is the fixation on the high tech holy grail is actually HURTING our capability. |
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These airplanes are less about how you perceive they look and more about the way they compute. Yep. The look of the plane may be 40yrs old but a newly constructed airframe with modern internals (engines, hydraulic systems, avionics, radar, weapons, etc..) makes all the difference. I'm more concerned with the signature it gives to an enemy targeting it. Compared to Low Observable aircraft, an F-15 looks like a barn door. That is my big problem with endless upgrades; at some point, you encounter the law of diminishing returns. I believe the B-2 has to live in a hangar as well. Oh, and John McCain has apparently decide that his legacy should be Grand Curmudgeon of All Things Military. It's becoming tiresome, although he did the right thing when he hammered the original Tanker program. |