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CBR900
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Posted: 11/29/2011 11:22:50 AM
I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1

Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all.

Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one.
ds762
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Posted: 11/29/2011 10:43:31 PM
[Last Edit: 11/29/2011 10:45:31 PM by ds762]
...
ds762
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Posted: 11/29/2011 10:45:13 PM
sierra has warned against using matchking bullets on game animals for a long time. that said a friend of mine used 220 gr SMK loaded subsonic through his 300 WTF (whisper/blk) and killed 2 does with a single bullet .. they will work but are not "optimum"
phonejack
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Posted: 11/30/2011 8:16:47 AM
I have used the 168's for about 20 years. works fine, never had one go further than 40 yards.(all of my shots are under 100 yards)
vanilla_gorilla
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Posted: 11/30/2011 9:17:45 AM
I'll save you the clicking back and forth and copy/paste this one






Originally Posted By CBR900:
While I appreciate the time you took to post, I wish you had NOT done so.

The Sierra Match King behaves just like a FMJ when used for hunting. It is NOT designed to expand in any way, whatsoever. The "hollow point" is NOT relevant and does nothing to promote expansion.

Unfortunately, your post gives the impression that hunting with a FMJ (or SMK which is essentially the SAME) is acceptable. To all reasing this: PLEASE consider using a more humane loading, such a bullet specifically designed to expand in game animals.


Boy, there's gonna be a bunch of upset guys over on snipershide.com when they hear that they've been smoking the shit out of animals with a bullet that doesn't work...



Imagine, if you will (or can), that Sierra suddenly declared that their OTM bullets expanded and were acceptible for hunting. The US military would immediately and forthwith cease ANY purchases of such projectiles, and Sierra's bottom line would do an impression of a lead balloon. Don't you think money COULD have something to do with why they don't recommend a bullet for hunting that has a documented history of working well in that application? Don't you suspect there MIGHT be a reason why the leading reccommended projectile for self-defense in 5.56 applications is currently some form of 69-75 grain OTM bullet?


Edit: A quote from a recent SH thread. 175 SMK on a whitetail:


As you can see, the exit wound is around 1" in diameter or so. This is the wound in the hide; once skinned, the devastation to the meat around the hole was much, much larger. It appeared as though there was about a 3" hole in the meat, and it was pulled out of the hide's approx. 1" hole. I failed in not taking a picture of the skinned exit wound... but at that point, neither my buddy or I had hands clean enough to handle my iPhone for pictures. So anyway, moral of this story is, just because it's a match bullet does not mean it will produce a .30 hole through and through. We had to trash about half of that front right quarter.

The heart- it's pretty tough to see in the picture since its sitting in a pile of other guts to include lungs, but the top half of it was absolutely destroyed. Looked like someone split the top of it in half, then beat the shit out of it with hammers for a while.
I keep an inch and a half guardrail nut on a loop of 550 cord. It's not whiz-bang tactical, but one smack in the grape and it's coloring books for Christmas
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:03:50 AM
Originally Posted By CBR900:
I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1

Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all.

Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one.


So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)?

Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms....
TxLewis
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:18:37 AM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1

Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all.

Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one.


So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)?

Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms....


For me, the winchester ballistic silver tip flys damn near exactly the same as the SMK.

I assume it expands well, never recovered one from the deer.

TXL
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wildearp
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:21:45 AM
Sierra Game King.
Simple Solutions to Complex problems.
SEMPER FI, DO OR DIE!
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TxRabbitBane
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:26:55 AM
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.
Not fly enough to be halal....
Joenavy85
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:32:23 AM
seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:34:55 AM
Originally Posted By Joenavy85:
seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly


Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder....
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:35:12 AM
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....
J75player
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:39:14 AM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 11:05:27 AM by J75player]
I shoot a .260 rem for deer hunting for the most part. I shoot only handloaded 140gr Berger VLD's through it for hunting.
they make two versions, a hunting and a target. the weight the same, fly the same and have same POI.

I tested them both in a ballistic buffalo. the hunting version expanded nicely and left a nice wound channel.

the Target version did not expand, but in every test it tumbled and the tip broke off.
sometimes the tumbling made a nice wound channel, sometimes it didnt. in one instance it made one tumble and turned
90 degrees and passed out the side of the ballistic buffalo after about 8 inches.
sure the target one will prolly inflict damage, but the actions of the hunting version are much more consistent.

I wouldn't use a non-expanding bullet for deer hunting. if you want to use a match bullet, I would highly recommend the
Berger line (they make non-VLD versions if your gun cant handle them)
VERY accurate and great on game. I took two deer this last season, both large MN does.
first one was at 285 yards, tipped right over and didn't move.
second one was at 480 yards, she made it all of 20 feet.

this one was recovered from a doe shot head on at around 400 yards two years ago

QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:43:55 AM
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1

Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all.

Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one.


So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)?

Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms....


For me, the winchester ballistic silver tip flys damn near exactly the same as the SMK.

I assume it expands well, never recovered one from the deer.

TXL


Define never recovered? As in it passed through?
TxRabbitBane
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:43:57 AM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?
Not fly enough to be halal....
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:17:31 AM
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....
Joenavy85
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:17:41 AM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By Joenavy85:
seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly


Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder....


I view an ethical kill as one that causes minimal pain before death, IOW one that causes a fast death. I look at it like this: ethical shot are ones you would take on yourself, if you want to get shot in the chest and suffer for a little while then have it; likewise, if you want to get shot in the head so it's over quick without feeling much (if anything) then go ahead.

But as you said it's in the eye of the beholder. If I hunted based on personal ethics I would be hunting with a Long Bow and an Atlatl, totally primitive.
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:19:07 AM
Originally Posted By Joenavy85:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By Joenavy85:
seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly


Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder....


I view an ethical kill as one that causes minimal pain before death, IOW one that causes a fast death. I look at it like this: ethical shot are ones you would take on yourself, if you want to get shot in the chest and suffer for a little while then have it; likewise, if you want to get shot in the head so it's over quick without feeling much (if anything) then go ahead.

But as you said it's in the eye of the beholder. If I hunted based on personal ethics I would be hunting with a Long Bow and an Atlatl, totally primitive.


I like your style! Tomahawks and spears for me!
TxRabbitBane
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:43:43 AM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....


Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities?

Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor.

Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr.
Not fly enough to be halal....
PA452
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:51:44 AM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 11:52:31 AM by PA452]
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....


Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities?

Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor.

Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr.


I know there are some bullets that are designed to expand at subsonic velocities. This place for example makes some: Outlaw State Bullets

And I know you're a little strapped there in the freedom restricting state of Texas, but some of us in free states are allowed to hunt with suppressors.
Gotta enjoy the little things.
FS2000GUY
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:53:20 AM
Flint napped knife and leather loin cloth for me
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 12:08:34 PM
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....


Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES

Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED

Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail



TxRabbitBane
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Posted: 11/30/2011 1:56:10 PM
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....


Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES

Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Yeah, I'll get right on that....

Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail I can live with that, I just love how my rifle shoots 68-78 grain bullets.



This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy.....
Not fly enough to be halal....
QuicksilverJPR
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Posted: 11/30/2011 8:53:15 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 8:54:40 PM by QuicksilverJPR]
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.


Those aren't subsonic....


You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not?


What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....


Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES

Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Yeah, I'll get right on that....

Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail I can live with that, I just love how my rifle shoots 68-78 grain bullets.



This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy.....


Damn, now I want to make the above....


I spent $90,000 over two years to get one sentence written in the law. Do not tell me it can't be done....
Clarinath
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Posted: 12/1/2011 3:26:31 AM
I have been using SMKs for 6 years. I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets. I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate.
We're a family here, so play nice. Disrespect our wimmenz, and you're going to have to deal with a pissed off band of pirates, ninjas, pimps, rednecks, various feathered critters, and some overprotective homos. We are, The Night Crew. ~Kingpin38506
VaFish
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Posted: 12/1/2011 6:44:04 AM
[Last Edit: 12/1/2011 6:52:51 AM by VaFish]
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I have been using SMKs for 6 years. I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets. I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate.


Not saying anyone is wrong for using smk on deer.

But if the manufacture says a bullet is not the best choice for deer hunting, and then you go use that bullet for deer hunting, and it doesn't perform well, its not the bullets fault, its yours for choosing the wrong bullet.

Just because something works for you doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job. A surplus deuce and a half with manual transmission, no power steering or personnel heater will work for getting me from my home to my office, mi with a 27 mile commute that takes am hour and a half in heavy traffic it sure isn't the best choice.
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