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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - what is a small frame 308? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/28/2016 12:18:02 AM EDT
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So I did search for the above question, but all it comes up with is where to get them (mainly from Adams Arms).
I've seen some other articles about vendors building these 'small frame' 308 platform receivers, but what exactly is it? What makes it different from a DPMS or other AR308 receiver. Hope this isn't a dupe. I just can't seem to find the definition anywhere. R/Matel |
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Yes, Gen2 DPMS and MEGA Arms new rifles. Both are small frame 308s. ITS THE FUTURE. Waiting for Knights to do it. Once they do, it's all over. I'm wondering if DPMS is cooperating with other manufacturers, (kind of like keymod, mlok) or if we are going to see each manufacturer with their own, incompatible parts. It sure would be nice to have a standard even if it's not mil-spec. If Armalite had been more willing and cooperative, we would all be shooting AR10s. |
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^^^ I've wondered the same as soon as the G2 DPMS came out. Are they sharing the BCG design? Is it patented? I've talked with MEGA and it's mainly parts availability forcing them to sell only rifles. They told me yesterday there are ZERO plans to offer a small frame MATEN upper/lower combo by itself.
I don't like how this has started out. I don't like buying complete, proprietary rifles. I don't even like buying complete rifles. |
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I think DPMS came out with the G2 to fix a problem that didn't exist. There components and designs out there already that shed weight off the 308. S&W for starter (even thought I'm not a fan of the CS). So the US Army didn't ask for a lighter and shorter 7.62 rifle? Interesting. |
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Pretty sure it is the DPMS G2 or Gen 2 as opposed to the earlier version LR308. Has a shorter receiver by about 1/2" IIRC. Man, that topic went sideways real quick. Only the above even got close to answering the actual question. I don't really care who's doing it, but what they did to get there. I've seen Adams Arms is all over web with the shorter version as well. But none of those articles actually say what they did. It's just the review of the rifle performance. So, how do they shave off 1/2" or make it shorter? Or do they just make it lighter by removing what they feel is excess material. Is it only the upper receiver or also the lower? Shortening the upper...that leads to a shorter bolt...less weight. Great! I'm just trying to understand the tech better so I can make decisions on future purchases and just know the tech. |
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So the US Army didn't ask for a lighter and shorter 7.62 rifle? Interesting. Quoted:
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I think DPMS came out with the G2 to fix a problem that didn't exist. There components and designs out there already that shed weight off the 308. S&W for starter (even thought I'm not a fan of the CS). So the US Army didn't ask for a lighter and shorter 7.62 rifle? Interesting. KAC delivered. The G2 is addressing a problem with the civilians, not the military. |
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What's old and forgotten is new.
The more refined ArmaLite AR10A from 1959 was sold to Colt that same year when Colt bought the Stoner patents. Colt was tooling up to mass-produce that rifle, the AR10A, but due to overwhelmingly positive response about the AR15 from potential foreign customers, they halted AR10A production and started cranking out AR15's. The Colt AR10A has a shorter receiver set, AR15 FCG parts, a shorter BCG, and was just a more balanced, handy rifle that never saw production. Fast forward to 2012. Colt introduced the Colt 901, which is a lightweight, shorter receiver 7.62 NATO carbine, that is also modular for being able to mount an AR15 upper on the universal lower. DPMS introduced the GII a few years later at 2014 SHOT, which has short receivers, but an AR15 diameter (but still longer than AR15) carrier, with a smaller diameter extension, and complete redesign of the internals. Adams Arms then introduced an op-rod driven version of this that appears to be compatible with the DPMS GII last year. Now Mega Machine has introduced the SF-MATEN, which appears to use some of the critically different components of the DPMS GII. The ejection port cover looks just like the GII's, so I suspect there might be some collaboration or straight copying going on. Amid this new wave of AR10's, the Colt 901 is the most overlooked, which is completely the fault of Colt's on many levels. They should be selling them in record numbers, supporting them with tools and disassembly instructions, as well as after-market handguards, but they aren't unless I missed something last week at SHOT (very real possibility). The only big news from them at SHOT was the 901 in 7.62x39mm. These are the 4 latest small frame AR10 variants on the market currently. The Mega Machine appears to be the highest quality option, and they're machine work is outstanding in my experience. They make a top notch product. |
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Really? Which is why no winner has been selected? Quoted:
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KAC delivered. The G2 is addressing a problem with the civilians, not the military. Really? Which is why no winner has been selected? I can guarantee you that enough people in the various weapons and school committees within SOCOM and other units have put their hands on some of these smaller frame guns, and said, "Why can't we have this?" Not only that, but other calibers. Everyone in the sniping community is painfully aware of the capabilities and limitations of 7.62 NATO. |
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Really? Which is why no winner has been selected? Quoted:
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KAC delivered. The G2 is addressing a problem with the civilians, not the military. Really? Which is why no winner has been selected? Is probably because of contractual obligations with KAC. They've made shorter and lighter SR25s. No, they didn't redesign the whole thing to maintain parts commonality. I don't know what's going on behind closed doors in the military. But i would assume they've most likely tested the shit out of the G2 and decided against it. Why, who knows? Most likely has to do with money chanting certain hands. I really like the Colt design better. But, like LRRP stated, I'm turned away by lack of after market support, no tools, no real options besides barrel length. It's not that big of a deal, but i like to defile factory guns and make them my own. That's rather difficult with the 901 unless i have access to a proper machine shop. At my job, i can only make a gas block with the machines we have, and maybe reprofile a barrel. That's it though. I'd like to see more jump on the G2 bandwagon. If KAC does, we'll have our standard shortly after. If armalite does, good bye large frame 308s altogether. |
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I'd be curious to know MEGA's source for the bolts/carriers. I know they don't make them. I'm also curious as to DPMS's licensing and patents, if any, concerning their GII platform. http://www.google.com/patents/US8887426 http://www.google.com/patents/EP2894428A1?cl=en |
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So the US Army didn't ask for a lighter and shorter 7.62 rifle? Interesting. Quoted:
Quoted:
I think DPMS came out with the G2 to fix a problem that didn't exist. There components and designs out there already that shed weight off the 308. S&W for starter (even thought I'm not a fan of the CS). So the US Army didn't ask for a lighter and shorter 7.62 rifle? Interesting. Did they...back that up? So they cancelled the m110 contract? |
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So I did search for the above question, but all it comes up with is where to get them (mainly from Adams Arms). I've seen some other articles about vendors building these 'small frame' 308 platform receivers, but what exactly is it? What makes it different from a DPMS or other AR308 receiver. Hope this isn't a dupe. I just can't seem to find the definition anywhere. R/Matel As far as you specific question, saw a thread on the AA a few weeks ago. Supposedly its their knockoff of the DPMS G2. DPMS engineered a 308 to have a shorter receiver. It has a fully machined Carrier that is one piece instead of a 2 piece (screwed on gas key). And has a metel block feed ramp that his pinned into the receiver. The end result is a rifle that more closely feels like a standard AR!5 and it runs about a half pound lighter than similar LR308 models... I personally was disappointed when I heard the news on the G2. I was hoping the industry was getting more standardization but instead it is blowing apart with different options. I have two 308's now. A LR308 and a PA10. The Palmetto is holding its own against the DPMS so I might consider making some mods to the DPMS...maybe a varmint barrel evenutally. I'm not sure but I don't have any plans to buy anymore. |
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Here are your current small frame AR10 variant choices: Colt MARC 901 Series http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2014/11/COLT-MARC-901-rifles-647x384.gif http://www.colt.com/Portals/0/productimages/2014/LE901-16SE.png DPMS GII http://www.dpmsinc.com/assets/images/promo/2015Spring_DPMSRebate.jpg Adams Arms Patrol .308 http://cdn3.volusion.com/nhnmq.xudjg/v/vspfiles/photos/FGAA-00147-2.jpg?1446882476 Mega Machine SF-MATEN http://www.megaarms.com/wp-content/gallery/sf-maten/ZANL8134.jpg Thanks for these. Here is a little info on POFs short frame .308 "Revolution". http://www.defensereview.com/patriot-ordnance-factory-pof-usa-revolution-very-small-frame-7-62x51mm-308-win-tactical-piston-ar-rifle-carbinesbr-it-takes-a-renegade-to-start-a-revolution-apparently/ |
| Anyone have one of these short frame 308's they can drop a 5.56 upper on and see if the takedown pin lines up? I've been wondering if it will be possible to mate a GII type upper to the Colt lower, since it may be the 5th of Never before we see separate 308 uppers for the Colt. |
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Anyone have one of these short frame 308's they can drop a 5.56 upper on and see if the takedown pin lines up? I've been wondering if it will be possible to mate a GII type upper to the Colt lower, since it may be the 5th of Never before we see separate 308 uppers for the Colt. No, AR15 uppers are not compatible with any of the .308 guns, except the Colt 901 with the magwell adapter. None of the other manufacturer's uppers will mate with the Colt 901 lower for a number of reasons. The Colt 901 uses a large diameter bolt carrier like the original AR10's. The DPMS GII uses an AR15 diameter carrier, but it is longer than an AR15 carrier. I still haven't put my hands on the SF-MATEN yet, so not sure what carrier it uses. |
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No, AR15 uppers are not compatible with any of the .308 guns, except the Colt 901 with the magwell adapter. None of the other manufacturer's uppers will mate with the Colt 901 lower for a number of reasons. The Colt 901 uses a large diameter bolt carrier like the original AR10's. The DPMS GII uses an AR15 diameter carrier, but it is longer than an AR15 carrier. Colt 308 carrier is the same diameter, the rear 60% or so, as an AR15 carrier, note the ability to use AR15 uppers. I still haven't put my hands on the SF-MATEN yet, so not sure what carrier it uses. Quoted:
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Anyone have one of these short frame 308's they can drop a 5.56 upper on and see if the takedown pin lines up? I've been wondering if it will be possible to mate a GII type upper to the Colt lower, since it may be the 5th of Never before we see separate 308 uppers for the Colt. No, AR15 uppers are not compatible with any of the .308 guns, except the Colt 901 with the magwell adapter. None of the other manufacturer's uppers will mate with the Colt 901 lower for a number of reasons. The Colt 901 uses a large diameter bolt carrier like the original AR10's. The DPMS GII uses an AR15 diameter carrier, but it is longer than an AR15 carrier. Colt 308 carrier is the same diameter, the rear 60% or so, as an AR15 carrier, note the ability to use AR15 uppers. I still haven't put my hands on the SF-MATEN yet, so not sure what carrier it uses. I realize the G2 type upper pivot pin won't line up with the Colt lower... without an adapter. I'd just like to know if there is that possibility of using a G2 type upper. Easiest first step is to find out if the bits will line up where it matters. Quoted:
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Anyone have one of these short frame 308's they can drop a 5.56 upper on and see if the takedown pin lines up?. Not physically possible, the .308 round is too long. The snipped parts added the context I think you missed. |
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Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is.
It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. |
| 5.56 adapters for 7.62 weapons are fucking stupid. In the case of the SCAR because you could issue an M4 to go with it for the same price. In the case of the 901 because by the time you buy two sets of electronics and optics and suppressors the cost of a spare M4 lower is nothing, so the compromises made to get there weren't worth it. |
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Quoted: Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is.
It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. Given that Colt has apparently test fired a 7.62x39 upper w/ AK mags, and one of our own members has gotten an Armalite AR-10B upper to work off a DPMS Gen 1 lower, it would seem almost anything is possible w/ enough mill time. |
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Given that Colt has apparently test fired a 7.62x39 upper w/ AK mags, and one of our own members has gotten an Armalite AR-10B upper to work off a DPMS Gen 1 lower, it would seem almost anything is possible w/ enough mill time. Quoted:
Quoted: Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is.
It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. Given that Colt has apparently test fired a 7.62x39 upper w/ AK mags, and one of our own members has gotten an Armalite AR-10B upper to work off a DPMS Gen 1 lower, it would seem almost anything is possible w/ enough mill time. Colt has a production 901 in 7.62x39 that is available now for civilian sale. 
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Here are your current small frame AR10 variant choices: Colt MARC 901 Series http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2014/11/COLT-MARC-901-rifles-647x384.gif http://www.colt.com/Portals/0/productimages/2014/LE901-16SE.png DPMS GII http://www.dpmsinc.com/assets/images/promo/2015Spring_DPMSRebate.jpg Adams Arms Patrol .308 http://cdn3.volusion.com/nhnmq.xudjg/v/vspfiles/photos/FGAA-00147-2.jpg?1446882476 Mega Machine SF-MATEN http://www.megaarms.com/wp-content/gallery/sf-maten/ZANL8134.jpg POF Revolution http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/POF-USA_Revolution_Small-Frame_7.62mm_NATO_7.62x51mm_NATO_.308_Win._Tactical_Piston_AR_Carbine_SBR_Short_Barreled_Rifle_at_SHOT_Show_2016_Photo_by_David_Crane_DefenseReview.com_DR_9.jpg Doesn't look like I can get any of the above in 6.5 creedmoor. Will have to wait longer. |
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Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is. It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. Exactly! The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. |
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I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. Quoted:
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Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is. It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. Exactly! The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. It isn't going to line up at the Take Down pin. The GII has a longer receiver set than the AR15. If it did, the pivot pin boss will be inside the mag well or hitting the front wall of the magwell. 
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I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. Quoted:
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Look at where the Colt 901 pivot pin is. It's in a totally different location so that they could make a magwell adapter to switch between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. If the rear profile of the GII receiver matched the Colt 901 and the center of bore was the same ( I doubt it is.), you would still need to machine some type of linkage to mate the upper and lower at the pivot pin. Exactly! The Colt 901 uses an AR10 diameter bolt carrier with shorter rails and a shorter carrier key base so it doesn't impact the lower receiver and charge handle. While the tail is AR15 diameter a la SR25, the front of the carrier is much larger in diameter as well, just like on the SR25 and look-a-likes. Any hopes of trying to mate a GII upper to a Colt 901 lower seem doomed to me for a number of reasons. I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. I can't, for the life of me, understand why you think that would work. |
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I can't, for the life of me, understand why you think that would work. Quoted:
Quoted: I have a 901. I don't have a GII. If someone can drop a 5.56 upper on a GII lower to see if it lines up at the receiver extension bore and takedown pin I'd appreciate it. I can't, for the life of me, understand why you think that would work. B/c the only difference btwn the two lowers now is the magwell. Magwells can hold adapters. Adapters can be machined. |
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Looks like POF went with their own pattern entirely. At least the Mega and Adams Arms appear to be compatible with the GII Quoted:
Looks like POF went with their own pattern entirely. At least the Mega and Adams Arms appear to be compatible with the GII The MEGA is actually sounding more proprietary unto itself every day. Apparently the rumor is MEGA did NOT follow the Gen2 BCG, but built their own ground up. I have my doubts, but we'll find out soon enough. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - what is a small frame 308? (Page 1 of 3)
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