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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 12:38:42 PM EDT
[#1]
i've seen it mentioned here that the M885A1 and the Mk318 Mod 1 use sintered copper cores. have you found this to be the case?
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Posted: 4/12/2015 12:53:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Fascinating. Thanks for posting.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 1:23:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Sweet!
Hey Wolfgang, if you feel the urge to send me some of that m995, don't be shy 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 1:29:20 PM EDT
[#4]
You do amazing work. If I have not said it before here it is....Thank you.
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Posted: 4/12/2015 2:36:10 PM EDT
[#5]
m855a1 is impossible to find
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 4:53:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wolfganggross]
[#6]
In my own opinion, no the M855A1 is not sintered copper, but is solid copper or alloy there of. The half jacket is TOMBAC which is 90% copper and 10% zinc. That would be tin bismuth prototype that is sintered, also the tin/lead and nylon/ lead M855. The tungsten carbide core of the M995 is also sintered, but then shaped and reheated into desired form.
The MK318 is solid TOMBAC with a non bonded lead core. Besides the fact that there is a huge patent infringement on the M855A1, I'm hearing reports of any significant hoards outside the military are being confiscated. They also have dried up and none can be found. I've never seen or heard of any for sale so placing a value would be difficult. I'm sure someone out the would give $50 for one! |
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Posted: 4/12/2015 5:05:44 PM EDT
[#7]
$50 for a single round?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 5:35:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wolfganggross: In my own opinion, no the M855A1 is not sintered copper, but is solid copper or alloy there of. The half jacket is TOMBAC which is 90% copper and 10% zinc. That would be tin bismuth prototype that is sintered, also the tin/lead and nylon/ lead M855. The tungsten carbide core of the M995 is also sintered, but then shaped and reheated into desired form. The MK318 is solid TOMBAC with a non bonded lead core. Besides the fact that there is a huge patent infringement on the M855A1, I'm hearing reports of any significant hoards outside the military are being confiscated. They also have dried up and none can be found. I've never seen or heard of any for sale so placing a value would be difficult. I'm sure someone out the would give $50 for one! if the MK318 Mod 0 is solid TOMBAC with a lead core, wouldnt that make it brass (a cooper/zinc alloy)? what about the Mk318 Mod 1? its supposed to have the lead core replaced with a copper one... http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2879 "Oh, sure there were problems. Field trials showed that the Mk318 Mod 0 did not exactly match the ballistics with the reticle pattern of the sight being used. The original ammunition’s exterior ballistics differed from the sight’s reticle pattern because it was originally designed for a 14.5-inch barrel. Since the Marine Corps’ primary service rifle is the M16A4 with a 20-inch barrel, we went back to Federal to adjust the ballistic coefficient. About this time the issue about environmentally friendly green ammo came up and we had to take a look to see if it was possible to replace the lead and still meet the specification. We found that we could replace the lead with copper, stretching the jacket around ever so slightly so it allowed us to crimp the nose even more. With that, the ballistic coefficient went up allowing the round to fly more efficiently through air with a better trajectory. Now it’s a ballistic match to the stock off-the-shelf reticle patterns that the Marine Corps uses, like the Trijicon ACOG sights. We named the improved round the Mk318 Mod1."  |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 6:04:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile.
Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. |
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Posted: 4/12/2015 6:08:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wolfganggross: Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile. Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2015 6:36:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Thank you for the cutaways of M855A1 and answering the question whether the core is sintered or not (like the original was)..
I have used both the Mk318 and 62 grain Barnes TSX on coyotes and your suggestion to just adopt a 62 grain Brown Tip pretty well describes the 62 grain TSX. I can tell you there is a big difference in wound profile between the two. The Mk318 is VERY destructive on thin skinned animals, and fragments immediately, even on a very thin portions of the rear leg or a low heart or belly shot. The TSX does not have a good reputation on auto glass and does expand out to about 300 yards but would not be my first choice for anti personnel use. Two very different bullet designs. Have you by any chance weighed the three components of the M855A1? I am guessing the steel penetrator is about twice the weight of the 10 grain M855, which puts it on par with the mild steel core of the 5.45 x 39. Thank you sir for your time and effort posting here!!! |
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Posted: 4/12/2015 11:47:25 PM EDT
[#12]
I will echo the comments and thanks of al the posters before me. Thanks again for all the postings of the cut outs that you do.
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Posted: 4/13/2015 9:10:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Tag
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Posted: 4/13/2015 1:06:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Looks like the original M855 prototype was a better design. Larger air pocket for possibly quicker tumbling, and the bullet looks to be more aerodynamic.
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 4/14/2015 7:11:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Coolness as usual!
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Posted: 4/17/2015 3:13:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_:
I'd probably pay $20 for one just to be able to test it in ballistic gel. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile. Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. A member here got a few rounds of 855A1 to test in gel a bit over a year ago. It was extremely impressive in gel. He was advised to take down the video shortly afterwards and did so. |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 9:42:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By leatherface_y2k: A member here got a few rounds of 855A1 to test in gel a bit over a year ago. It was extremely impressive in gel. He was advised to take down the video shortly afterwards and did so. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By leatherface_y2k: Originally Posted By 10mm_: Originally Posted By wolfganggross: Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile. Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. A member here got a few rounds of 855A1 to test in gel a bit over a year ago. It was extremely impressive in gel. He was advised to take down the video shortly afterwards and did so. |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 10:38:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: thebomber]
[#18]
I know who the member is and where he got the samples. I will not divulge his name as that would be his choice to do so. It was an investigator who worked for Lake City. I believe it was more a courtesy issue than a legal one. In addition, evidently Lake City actually mistakenly sold some on the civilian market.
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Posted: 4/17/2015 10:54:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thebomber: I know who the member is and where he got the samples. I will not divulge his name as that would be his choice to do so. It was an investigator who worked for Lake City. I believe it was more a courtesy issue than a legal one. In addition, evidently Lake City actually mistakenly sold some on the civilian market. Is there no legal path for a civilian to obtain this ammo? |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 10:59:50 AM EDT
[#20]
I believe they strong armed him and frankly speaking, who really has the time to fight that battle.
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2015 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#21]
I do remember all that, was waiting for a knock at my door. Never came. (Knock on wood) It seems they were only interested just in the test results of the fired round, but had no trouble with me sectioning them. Just last week heard the story of the ATF confiscating from a demiller who was paid to take them apart. No more. They really don't want this round in civilian hands. With an exposed steel (hardened?) tip, wonder why?
Just a heads up, the way to tell the visual difference in the prototype and the A1 is that the tip on the prototype is not cadmium (gold tone) plated. |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 4:58:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Great info and great job on the cutaways.
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Posted: 4/17/2015 4:59:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mikhail_86]
[#23]
Mmmm... 995
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Posted: 4/18/2015 3:33:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_:
I can buy that, but that's not a reason to avoid doing a test today. Is there no legal path for a civilian to obtain this ammo? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By thebomber:
I know who the member is and where he got the samples. I will not divulge his name as that would be his choice to do so. It was an investigator who worked for Lake City. I believe it was more a courtesy issue than a legal one. In addition, evidently Lake City actually mistakenly sold some on the civilian market. Is there no legal path for a civilian to obtain this ammo? From what I recall from his gel test the neck length was quite short, cavitation was very impressive and that tip appeared to have tumbled and caused damage that was unusual. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he find the velocity to be on par with M855? One of the main criticisms of 855A1 is that it's loaded at proof load levels. His test got standard velocities, IIRC? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2015 6:25:39 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm also confused by the "banning" of M855A1...it's not armor piercing, correct?
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Posted: 4/20/2015 12:51:45 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deimo5:
I'm also confused by the "banning" of M855A1...it's not armor piercing, correct? No more so than 855. It's the construction of the projectile. And possibly the patent infringement issues. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 2:41:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By leatherface_y2k: No more so than 855. It's the construction of the projectile. And possibly the patent infringement issues. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By leatherface_y2k: Originally Posted By Deimo5: I'm also confused by the "banning" of M855A1...it's not armor piercing, correct? No more so than 855. It's the construction of the projectile. And possibly the patent infringement issues. |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 3:25:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Interesting. Hadn't heard of the M855A1 patent infringement befo today.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2015 6:41:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_: I thought the patent lawsuit was settled? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10mm_: Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k: Originally Posted By Deimo5: I'm also confused by the "banning" of M855A1...it's not armor piercing, correct? No more so than 855. It's the construction of the projectile. And possibly the patent infringement issues. The govt straight up lost the case. They have to pay damages plus 0.15 cents per round |
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Posted: 4/20/2015 11:30:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: The govt straight up lost the case. They have to pay damages plus 0.15 cents per round Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: Originally Posted By 10mm_: Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k: Originally Posted By Deimo5: I'm also confused by the "banning" of M855A1...it's not armor piercing, correct? No more so than 855. It's the construction of the projectile. And possibly the patent infringement issues. The govt straight up lost the case. They have to pay damages plus 0.15 cents per round |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2020 9:28:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wolfganggross: Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile. Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. @wolfganggross if you're still around....have you had a chance to section a Mk318 Mod 1 yet? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/30/2020 1:18:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wolfganggross: Actually would really be called Abyssinian gold, but yes a high end brass. The zinc gives it extra slide out the barrel. Haven't played with the MK318 mod 1 yet, still baffles me a bit. Why not just use 556 sost brown tip if you are looking for a green round, just get it made into a 62gr projectile. Yes, $50 each. You can get M995, today, for that much. Where are you going to get the M855A1? I'm not saying its better, just more rare. This thread is confusing me. Why are you guys saying m855A1 is impossible to find? Did something haplen very recently? It still seems plentiful but you have to pay $2 per round. Am I missing something? Plenty available on gunbroker at this moment at $2 per. |
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Posted: 4/30/2020 8:22:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GAU-8: This thread is confusing me. Why are you guys saying m855A1 is impossible to find? Did something haplen very recently? It still seems plentiful but you have to pay $2 per round. Am I missing something? Plenty available on gunbroker at this moment at $2 per. The only thing recent is that this thread was bumped after 5 yrs.... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/30/2020 7:49:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tigwelder1971: The only thing recent is that this thread was bumped after 5 yrs.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tigwelder1971: Originally Posted By GAU-8: This thread is confusing me. Why are you guys saying m855A1 is impossible to find? Did something haplen very recently? It still seems plentiful but you have to pay $2 per round. Am I missing something? Plenty available on gunbroker at this moment at $2 per. The only thing recent is that this thread was bumped after 5 yrs.... Thank you! I did not notice that and the whole time I was wondering why the pics were gone so fast. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2020 12:39:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Not sure if this will gain any traction, but I have a question/idea. Why not just design the M855A1 with a full metal (copper) jacket?
Most of the reviews I'm reading about this round are complaining about two major points: 1) Higher pressures 2) Exposed penetrator that dings into feed ramps/barrel-extensions... Now I've read they solved the near max pressure load of the M855A1, by simply not loading it up as much. But why not go back to the drawing board, and fully enclose the entire round in a FMJ? Like countless 'military' type cartridges already do this, all over the world even. Hell the M995 does it as far as I know... So why not just cover up that 'sharp' tip with a simple/effective copper jacket? |
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Posted: 5/16/2020 11:59:21 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KillerBD: Not sure if this will gain any traction, but I have a question/idea. Why not just design the M855A1 with a full metal (copper) jacket? Most of the reviews I'm reading about this round are complaining about two major points: 1) Higher pressures 2) Exposed penetrator that dings into feed ramps/barrel-extensions... Now I've read they solved the near max pressure load of the M855A1, by simply not loading it up as much. But why not go back to the drawing board, and fully enclose the entire round in a FMJ? Like countless 'military' type cartridges already do this, all over the world even. Hell the M995 does it as far as I know... So why not just cover up that 'sharp' tip with a simple/effective copper jacket? I think because they need it to fragment. M995 does not fragment. Honestly I like mk318 for this purpose better. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 8:41:30 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KillerBD: Not sure if this will gain any traction, but I have a question/idea. Why not just design the M855A1 with a full metal (copper) jacket? Most of the reviews I'm reading about this round are complaining about two major points: 1) Higher pressures 2) Exposed penetrator that dings into feed ramps/barrel-extensions... Now I've read they solved the near max pressure load of the M855A1, by simply not loading it up as much. But why not go back to the drawing board, and fully enclose the entire round in a FMJ? Like countless 'military' type cartridges already do this, all over the world even. Hell the M995 does it as far as I know... So why not just cover up that 'sharp' tip with a simple/effective copper jacket? |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2020 1:00:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Is m855a1 illegal to own? I heard stories about 5 years ago they were confiscating it but that was a long time ago. Is it all still stolen stuff to this very day?
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Posted: 5/18/2020 3:24:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By waynelte: Is m855a1 illegal to own? I heard stories about 5 years ago they were confiscating it but that was a long time ago. Is it all still stolen stuff to this very day? |
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