Posted: 5/16/2008 9:35:53 PM EDT
I've been lurking in here for quite a while. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed, but the training forum seems to be a pretty slow place. I find this rather unnerving. There are countless threads on this site about weapons, ammo, and gear, but training seems to be overlooked all too often. I see the same thing amongst gun owners in my daily life also. They tend to have this "I know how to shoot, dammit!" mindset. I usually say "Yes, but do you know how to fight with a firearm?" and get a  look. Do you guys tend to have similar experiences, or am I off my rocker? What do you think can be said/done, if anything, to change this mindset? Just something I've been pondering for a while.
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Yeager posted this over on GetOffTheX.com the other day. (I can hear NCPatrolCar rolling his eyes now) I think he offers some really good insights on "Gun Guys" and I think it fits with what you're saying. His post has been stuck in my head for the past week. He's a big Glock fan (I'm a convert as well) and phrases it in standard Yeager fashion  
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He's absolutely correct on all counts. I do however occasionally carry a 1911 or S&W M&P in addition to a G19. Comment: I am frequently bemused when I read "how well" some people shoot their DA/SA auto-loaders. But when I ask for context with respect to what type of drills they are shooting I get silence. IOW, my edu-ma-cated guess is their banging away at 10 to 15 yards, slow fire and thumb-cocking the first shot. When I challenge them to hit the ocular window, from the holster, from 3 yards in 1.5 seconds, again, all I hear is silence. |
 Valid point.
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Mirrors my experiences completely.... Most guys I know can't shoot for shit,and the thought of taking a training course is tantamount to taking a course on how to have sex or drive... Blasphemy... Buying a cool new stock or spiting hairs over which is better 4MOA or 2MAO dot is more popular then actually shooting the gun in ways that brings you out of your comfort zone. Training forums on any web sight always have low counts compared to the forums with gadgets... Folks like to "buy" there skill vs. train to achieve it... |
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Interresting thread: I just completed my CHL yesterday but this is more a proficiency test with you and your firearm. As a cilvilian, I reallize I have no form of tactical firearm training. All I have going is marksmenship which is only half the battle... if that. So I wanted to ask and see if anyone has heard of a classess that teaches tacitcal skills to non Law Enforcement officers? |
Cool, I thought these classess was limited to LEOs only. Thanks. |
Why yes, for example my attempt at getting DCNC to come down to SC and put on a class. There are plenty of members of this forum in my area and just across the river in GA but, you'd think i posted a thread asking "who wants to get kicked in the sack?" All i needed was 9 other students i got zero 
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That would be discouraging to say the least. 
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I thought the internet would be the answer to finding like minded people to train with. Wrong. Get to a class or training group, meet people and focus your time and energy with those that so. c361 Stan |
It's such a common thing that some prominent trainers have coined phrases around it: "There are three things every guy thinks he can do from birth. Drive fast, f**k like a porn star, and shoot. The reality is that we need practice to learn how to do all three." -- Ken Hackathorn Of course, long before I ever met Mr. Hackathorn I came to the same conclusion and you can find several posts on ARFCOM where I've stated that most (males especially) dramatically overestimate their skill as a driver, lover, and shooter.
There are essentially two types of people in the world. Those who are seekers of information and those who are pretty sure they've got it all figured out. Only seekers can be reached by logic and good information...which is why some of us try to point to that information whenever we can. The other type can't be helped. Nice sigline, by the way.... 
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Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Ken Hackathorn, Pat Rogers, Magpul/Travis Haley, Blackwater, and a number of other trainers/outfits offer good courses for ordinary joes. Having trained with both Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn I encourage you to get into training with those gentlemen at your earliest opportunity. |
SOME training is mandated for police officers. Many departments do the bare minimum required by the state and that's it....and some of the state mandated training is pretty pathetic. (Welder's goggles and 6 shots as a qual for "night fire") Some individual officers take the initiative to do better, but they aren't the majority. Many can't be bothered to take any additional training even if one of their fellow officers who has sought out the best in training offers it to them for FREE. Such is life. |
They are out there....it just takes a lot of looking to find them sometimes. ...of course, I don't usually advertise my online persona when I'm in a class. Things just go smoother that way. |
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When you see people posting stories of how they took a crap at wal-mart and that thread goes 40+ pages, you get an idea of what the majority of gun owners spend their time doing. Owning guns is something we have in common. The desire to become a warrior, citizen, defender of one's family, responsible American, etc, is what sets us apart. Quality beats quantity in the training forums. Carry forums aren't bad, either, but you have to ignore the monthly "clipdraw on my Glock" threads... |
I saw in another thread on here where you were offering advise to a guy going to train at Blackwater. I've been wanting to take a Carbine Operators Course in the somewhat near future, and have been looking at both the 5 day course at Blackwater and the 3 day course at E.A.G. Have you taken the course with Pat R.? If so, which course do you recommend?
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This is an excellent thread that should be read by all gun owners. Unfortunately, it's more fun to talk about the latest and greatest piece of gear and not how to get good with that piece of gear. I don't own a lot of guns (I have a few of each type needed though!!) but I seek to be proficient with all of them. I'm decent but always looking to get better. GOOD training is what is needed for everyone. I am also a police firearms trainer. I have been working to develop a practical and quality training program and it's going well. Unfortunately I don't have huge training budget. However, to get people to show up, I had to talk the brass into making it mandatory. Still am having trouble getting everyone to show up but it's getting better. Sad but true. |
I've never had the opportunity to train with Pat, but folks I trust say that he's a fine instructor especially for people who are looking for good fundamental instruction on the carbine. Personally I am a bigger fan of 5 day courses than I am of 3 day courses as a format because there is typically a point on the fourth or fifth day (sometimes the 3rd day for some students) when the skills they've learned really begin to gel and they really begin to see a dramatic difference in the way they perform, especially if they haven't had formal training on the platform before. The 5 day classes, however, are more expensive, require more ammo, and more room and board expense...so there's a downside too. Either the BW carbine course or Pat's courses will teach you good fundamentals. If I were in your shoes I would select the course that fit my budget and time restraints best. I would, of course, encourage you to take both if you can. Taking instruction from multiple high quality instructors is a good thing. |
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Yes, I have experienced the same thing. Last year I was in a position to give away 39 4 day classes. After going to friends I opened it up here. 37 people enrolled, 35 made it (family and health issues came up). You are not off your rocker. How to change the situation just some thoughts: Ask these people questions to gently show them need to be open to training: How many guns did you see people carrying today? You are walking with them, and someone passes ask them what color shirt that person was wearing (no looking on their part)? How many people have they noticed carpooling? This would start to break them out of their oblivious state of being. Perhaps using a scaled down Force on Force situation. Use Super Soaker squirt guns, play cops and robbers on a hot day, take them to paint ball (not speed ball with teams), or laser tag (you might find this in a local mall). Use your tactics and training against their "I KNOW HOW TO SHOOT". See who survives better. Maybe there is a video training system around. I actually saw one that looked interesting in all places an Arcade at a movie theater. They system had about 12 different "games", one was shoot don't shoot with people with and without firearms. I was more interested in watching people play the game. Most gave up when they got "killed" and went to a simulated plate rack game. Set up examples of: Tuller Drill/21 foot rule for them. Then v 1 Attacker, 2 Attackers, 3 Attackers (this should show them can be done not the Hollywood version of a gun fight). Just thoughts. |
I've been leaning towards the Blackwater course anyway, and what you said here reinforces my thoughts. The greater expense for the 5 day is a bit of a downside, but I'm willing to deal with that for the extra training time. It looks like there's a LOT more shooting time with BW. They want you to bring 3000 rds. for your carbine (IIRC) as opposed to 1200 at the other course. I like that.
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That sucks. If someone was giving me free instruction at work, you'd have to shoot me to keep me from coming.
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Sad huh? Now to be fair, I have people who show up to ALL training events without fail. The sad thing is they are the best shots in the department(probably the reason they are the best shots!!!) My weak shooters do their best to never show up. I have really been working to overhaul our training program but have run into budget constraints. To get the level of training that I want for them, I no longer use any department ammo for myself (I buy my own so that there is more ammo to use for the officers) and I purchase all the targets and training props at my expense. Also just bought a couple Airsoft guns at my expense and we are going to be doing training with them in the near future.I'm going to train them wether they like it or not!!!! 
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Yes, take such things to GD. That's what it's for. I think my thread has pretty much run it's course, but it still doesn't need shit upon. |
how advanced in training is that? I know I'm ignorant for military, but pistol training I simply haven't hardly ever had, sadly. Is this type of training more for tactical situations, or self defense? |