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Posted: 10/29/2010 3:01:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Anytime my weapon is not shooting, my finger on the trigger preparing to shoot/engage, it is on safe. Do you run around with your trigger on the finger when climbing stairs? Is your weapon safe'd while rappelling? Any activity that does not involve me actively shooting/preparing to shoot my weapon is safe'd, finger out side of the trigger well and muzzle in a safe and readily employable direction.
Do what you want but how many have 10lbs of crap hanging off of your rifles that you will never use and You are worried about the .010 of a second to safe your weapon? Try switching to decaf... |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:04:02 AM EDT
[#2]
I totally agree,that it makes non sense practicing the transition while the rifle is still functioning,because u will make a habit of turning the selector to safe(for obvious reasons ).Dummy rounds or less ammo is the way to go.Imagen trying to put the selector on safe when u have a malfunction (which of course cannot happen)before u transition will make u killed.
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:18:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Do you mean for real or during practice while transition with a still working, loaded rifle? If it's for real, you have the immediate threat in front of you that WILL shoot you if you don't shoot him/her/them first, versus the chance that your weapon might go off. A very slim chance (snowball....hell) because the entire reason you're transitioning to your secondary is because your primary is no longer working. Out of ammo, bad round that didn't fire, double feed, something that kept it from firing. So, it's kind of hard for your weapon to clear or load itself, chamber a good round, then fire itself. If during training, you need to consider making your training safer and more realistic by having dummy rounds loaded, or mags with less rounds in them. That said it doesn't take much to swipe the safety as you lower it. Just train with dummy rounds so that you don't keep trying to safe it when the hammer is forward and the safety won't engage. THIS, being prior service, when running from object to object ( car to tree or across a field to a AA point, flip your safety on while running, flip it off when when you have better control of your movement and rifle. As far as slinging your rifle to your back.. honestly.. you just hav e to see what works for you. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:11:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Safety can be secondary to immidiate life threating scenarios as they present themselves. Fact is if you train safety on when transitioning thats what you will do. If you dont then you may end up with a hole in your leg. Safety 1st is just that.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:26:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
if your rifle goes down (won't fire for unknown reason - maybe malfunction or run dry, etc) is it acceptable or not to immediately sling and transition to side arm without setting (or attempting to set) selector to safe? Seems like it would be an emergency if you had to transition in a hurry ... but you're breaking a safety protocol if - like me - your weapon in slung position is pointing down and backwards (weakside) not in safe. thanks... as the guy said before me.. however you train... thats what youll do... keep training that way itll become muscle memory and you wont notice it. meh... if i was in a situation like that where i NEEDED to transition id just drop it. assuming id have my sling on and whatever... at that point in time safety protocol would be my last worry. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:27:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: if your rifle goes down (won't fire for unknown reason - maybe malfunction or run dry, etc) is it acceptable or not to immediately sling and transition to side arm without setting (or attempting to set) selector to safe? Seems like it would be an emergency if you had to transition in a hurry ... but you're breaking a safety protocol if - like me - your weapon in slung position is pointing down and backwards (weakside) not in safe. thanks... just because i had not thought about it, i practiced my transition drill - apparently i put the saftey on as i am dropping the mag and releasing the grip to transition to the pistol ( i have to say i have never really thought about it - it must be something that was built into the transition drill i have learned and practiced) –– the end result is the m4 in front of me with the bolt open and the magwell empty on safe with the pistol ready to engage
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:48:59 PM EDT
[#7]
He fact is that shooting one's self while practicing transitions is a much bigger threat than being shot because you sweep the safety while discarding your primary. Personally, I train to give the safety a cursory sweep when transitioning. It's a small training scar compared to things you will pick up practicing for gun games and it has safety value in the immediate sense.
If you want to mitigate this issue you can load numerous magazines with just a few rounds relative to the number of targets you employ, forcing a transition only on a dry weapon and adding the stimulus of feeling a dry weapon. Using dummy rounds distributed in magazines can do the same by replicating misfires. In reality, you will be transitioning from a failed, relatively safe primary to your secondary, anyway, so the safety isn't so important even if you don't count the bigger threat of facing armed bad guys. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:51:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
if your rifle goes down (won't fire for unknown reason - maybe malfunction or run dry, etc) is it acceptable or not to immediately sling and transition to side arm without setting (or attempting to set) selector to safe? Seems like it would be an emergency if you had to transition in a hurry ... but you're breaking a safety protocol if - like me - your weapon in slung position is pointing down and backwards (weakside) not in safe. thanks... just because i had not thought about it, i practiced my transition drill - apparently i put the saftey on as i am dropping the mag and releasing the grip to transition to the pistol ( i have to say i have never really thought about it - it must be something that was built into the transition drill i have learned and practiced) –– the end result is the m4 in front of me with the bolt open and the magwell empty on safe with the pistol ready to engage No need to drop the mag. Don't build that habit if you're going to transition. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 6:05:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Why are you transitioning if you still have a working rifle?
If you need to transition, it is because your rifle is broke, or out of ammo and you need to face shoot someone. Clear it out of the way, get your pistol out and smoke them down. If you are going to train for this, set up a malfunction, or a down loaded mag to ensure it happens and the weapon will be in a non-functioning condition, so there is no safety issue when training on transitions. Keep in mind that if you do go to transition in the real world because you are out of ammo, or some malfunctions, your safety will not go on. It is VERY likely that if you train to put it on when you transition, then when you go to do it in the real world, then you will spend time trying to figure out why your safety will not go on when you should be dealing with the threat. Train as you fight and all that... |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:21:39 PM EDT
[#10]
I was taught, to allow the weapon to sling down, twist it 180 degrees to the side, which prevents it from dangling around, and present your pistol.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:27:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Why are you transitioning if you still have a working rifle? If you need to transition, it is because your rifle is broke, or out of ammo and you need to face shoot someone. Clear it out of the way, get your pistol out and smoke them down. If you are going to train for this, set up a malfunction, or a down loaded mag to ensure it happens and the weapon will be in a non-functioning condition, so there is no safety issue when training on transitions. Keep in mind that if you do go to transition in the real world because you are out of ammo, or some malfunctions, your safety will not go on. It is VERY likely that if you train to put it on when you transition, then when you go to do it in the real world, then you will spend time trying to figure out why your safety will not go on when you should be dealing with the threat. Train as you fight and all that... One can get a lot of practice in just transitioning after every controlled pair, even if the rifle is functional between repetitions. Many organizations that train on transitions mandate the application of the safety when the primary is hung, so it's often not a choice even if the safety switch may not actually function under actual conditions. As such, I haven't seen anyone really get hung up on applying the safety. If it goes it goes. If not, you push on. As an aside, you can shoot a guy in the face faster by using your primary as opposed to transitioning to a sidearm. You don't have to be any farther away from them to do it, either. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:30:15 PM EDT
[#12]
As others have noted.. you press the trigger... nothing... so you transition... I turn my carbine inboard with my support hand while I go for my pistol and then bring up the support hand to my pistol.. If you ran out of Carbine ammo....doesn't get any safer then that, and if you have a malfuction... you most likely will not be able to move the selector to safe anyhow...
Not something I think about or attempt to do. I'm focusing on the transition and saving my life... This is where a good two point sling that is properly set up shines in allowing you to let the gun hang and not bounce around. You can do it with a single point, but they bounce.... need to turn it inboard and let the sling trap the gun and it helps. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:34:58 PM EDT
[#13]
in what scenario would a safety off be dangerous on a primary weapon you just transitioned from? i cant think of one, unless your dropping a weapon with a live round in chamber during practice instead of waiting till it runs dry or malfunctions to transition...
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:36:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
I was taught, to allow the weapon to sling down, twist it 180 degrees to the side, which prevents it from dangling around, and present your pistol. Twisting it 180 deg. to the side? How's that? I'm not visualizing it. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:39:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
As others have noted.. you press the trigger... nothing... so you transition... I turn my carbine inboard with my support hand while I go for my pistol and then bring up the support hand to my pistol.. If you ran out of Carbine ammo....doesn't get any safer then that, and if you have a malfuction... you most likely will not be able to move the selector to safe anyhow... Not something I think about or attempt to do. I'm focusing on the transition and saving my life... This is where a good two point sling that is properly set up shines in allowing you to let the gun hang and not bounce around. You can do it with a single point, but they bounce.... need to turn it inboard and let the sling trap the gun and it helps. This...if you are not constrained by any other factors. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:40:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was taught, to allow the weapon to sling down, twist it 180 degrees to the side, which prevents it from dangling around, and present your pistol. Twisting it 180 deg. to the side? How's that? I'm not visualizing it. i think he is saying drop it with mag pointing towards you, then twist it over to your offhand side where mag is now pointing away from you...really too many steps, just drop that thing and get your pistol out... |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:46:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
in what scenario would a safety off be dangerous on a primary weapon you just transitioned from? i cant think of one, unless your dropping a weapon with a live round in chamber during practice instead of waiting till it runs dry or malfunctions to transition... As you noted, it is useful for repetitive training and live-fire scenarios where weapons are routinely hung live in the process of doing other work which could put the trigger in contact with equipment or obstacles. Thus, training in the attempt to engage the safety for consistency's sake. It's a compromise safety net, kind of like not using high-port in places where guys are watching from the catwalk. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:50:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was taught, to allow the weapon to sling down, twist it 180 degrees to the side, which prevents it from dangling around, and present your pistol. Twisting it 180 deg. to the side? How's that? I'm not visualizing it. i think he is saying drop it with mag pointing towards you, then twist it over to your offhand side where mag is now pointing away from you...really too many steps, just drop that thing and get your pistol out... Agreed. Just let it straight down with the ejection port facing inboard for a righty so your support hand doesn't end up behind the primary and draw the pistol as you do. Economy of motion. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 7:51:24 PM EDT
[#19]
I do it all the time, there is NO reason not to at least attempt to engage it.
Think about it, every extra piece of BS you have on your gear is another thing to snag the trigger. If your safety is going to go on it will go on. Then again, I also guide my rifle down as I reach for my pistol, not just "Drop it". |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 10:43:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Do you mean for real or during practice while transition with a still working, loaded rifle?
If it's for real, you have the immediate threat in front of you that WILL shoot you if you don't shoot him/her/them first, versus the chance that your weapon might go off. A very slim chance (snowball....hell) because the entire reason you're transitioning to your secondary is because your primary is no longer working. Out of ammo, bad round that didn't fire, double feed, something that kept it from firing. So, it's kind of hard for your weapon to clear or load itself, chamber a good round, then fire itself. If during training, you need to consider making your training safer and more realistic by having dummy rounds loaded, or mags with less rounds in them. That said it doesn't take much to swipe the safety as you lower it. Just train with dummy rounds so that you don't keep trying to safe it when the hammer is forward and the safety won't engage. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:32:40 AM EDT
[#21]
I really don't see the logic behind this question?? If you are in an engagment where your rifle goes down and HAVE to switch to your secondary...the situation is bad enough that you are required to be engaged immediately. The AR platform will not cycle the safety unless it is cocked...sooo, assuming you attempted to fire the weapon and got a *CLICK*...it is no longer cocked. You would have to charge the bolt AGAIN just to put an already nonfunctioning weapon to safe. Seems a little OCD doesn't it? Especially when seconds are crucial?
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:43:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
if your rifle goes down (won't fire for unknown reason - maybe malfunction or run dry, etc) is it acceptable or not to immediately sling and transition to side arm without setting (or attempting to set) selector to safe? Seems like it would be an emergency if you had to transition in a hurry ... but you're breaking a safety protocol if - like me - your weapon in slung position is pointing down and backwards (weakside) not in safe. thanks... In a lot of gun games this will get you sent home with a DQ. Weapon must be on safe if a round is in the chamber. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 5:21:53 AM EDT
[#23]
I practice by using my supporting hand holding the forearm of the rifle, pulling it down and to my left, take a step forward with my right foot and draw and fire my handgun strong hand only.
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Posted: 10/29/2010 7:25:15 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I practice by using my supporting hand holding the forearm of the rifle, pulling it down and to my left, take a step forward with my right foot and draw and fire my handgun strong hand only. I often end up doing this as a matter of course. I don't so much practice it, but since virtually all my transitions happen on the move, it is sometimes a valid technique when moving through an immediate threat at distances where the front sight is not important. If I'm still looking at dealing with points of domination and sectors of fire I will end up with two hands on the weapon by default. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 8:27:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: I practice by using my supporting hand holding the forearm of the rifle, pulling it down and to my left, take a step forward with my right foot and draw and fire my handgun strong hand only. I often end up doing this as a matter of course. I don't so much practice it, but since virtually all my transitions happen on the move, it is sometimes a valid technique when moving through an immediate threat at distances where the front sight is not important. If I'm still looking at dealing with points of domination and sectors of fire I will end up with two hands on the weapon by default. I agree. The problem is most people HATE shooting one hand strong and LOATHE one hand weak and therefore don't practice it enough. I can keep all my rounds on an IPSC at 35yds if I do what I'm supposed to do. Like you said, better to get two hands on the gun though past contact distance. I was just more referring to an option as to what to do with the long gun. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 2:39:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I practice by using my supporting hand holding the forearm of the rifle, pulling it down and to my left, take a step forward with my right foot and draw and fire my handgun strong hand only. I often end up doing this as a matter of course. I don't so much practice it, but since virtually all my transitions happen on the move, it is sometimes a valid technique when moving through an immediate threat at distances where the front sight is not important. If I'm still looking at dealing with points of domination and sectors of fire I will end up with two hands on the weapon by default. I agree. The problem is most people HATE shooting one hand strong and LOATHE one hand weak and therefore don't practice it enough. I can keep all my rounds on an IPSC at 35yds if I do what I'm supposed to do. Like you said, better to get two hands on the gun though past contact distance. I was just more referring to an option as to what to do with the long gun. Indeed, one has to force most folks to shoot one-handed. My point was that while I do practice strong and weak hand shooting while both static and on the move, I don't typically practice the one-handed transition technique you describe, thought I think it's a good tool and end up using it from time to time, anyway. It's fast, for sure and that you brought it up was fortunate. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:49:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Rule: You don't transition unless the trigger is dead or the safety is on.
Accomplish this how you choose. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 5:36:07 PM EDT
[#28]
That rule would have been good for one of the CATM instructors back at Ellsworth AFB. He was prepping our class for the pre deployment qual, and showed us pics where he shot himself in the foot doing transition drills with the local police.
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Posted: 10/29/2010 5:47:03 PM EDT
[#29]
It's standard with every private company I have ever trained with.
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Posted: 10/29/2010 6:36:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Rule: You don't transition unless the trigger is dead or the safety is on. Accomplish this how you choose. Pretty much. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 6:39:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I really don't see the logic behind this question?? If you are in an engagment where your rifle goes down and HAVE to switch to your secondary...the situation is bad enough that you are required to be engaged immediately. The AR platform will not cycle the safety unless it is cocked...sooo, assuming you attempted to fire the weapon and got a *CLICK*...it is no longer cocked. You would have to charge the bolt AGAIN just to put an already nonfunctioning weapon to safe. Seems a little OCD doesn't it? Especially when seconds are crucial? This is the point I'm trying to make... If the gun is empty.... no need for safety... if the gun has malfunctioned... the hammer has been released and or the bolt is out of battery and you CAN'T place it on safe.. And if neither of these two conditions exist....Then there is no reason to have a pistol in my hand in the first place... Now if were talking the need to go hands on for whatever reason, then yea, no shit you place on safe... but a transition is for a specific reason... and when I practice them, I don't do it with a full gun, I run one round at a time and shoot the gun dry. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 6:48:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: I really don't see the logic behind this question?? If you are in an engagment where your rifle goes down and HAVE to switch to your secondary...the situation is bad enough that you are required to be engaged immediately. The AR platform will not cycle the safety unless it is cocked...sooo, assuming you attempted to fire the weapon and got a *CLICK*...it is no longer cocked. You would have to charge the bolt AGAIN just to put an already nonfunctioning weapon to safe. Seems a little OCD doesn't it? Especially when seconds are crucial? Never had a hangfire or a cookoff? ETA: A lot also depends upon if you do an malf clearance or not and whether there is a live round in the chamber. |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 4:01:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really don't see the logic behind this question?? If you are in an engagment where your rifle goes down and HAVE to switch to your secondary...the situation is bad enough that you are required to be engaged immediately. The AR platform will not cycle the safety unless it is cocked...sooo, assuming you attempted to fire the weapon and got a *CLICK*...it is no longer cocked. You would have to charge the bolt AGAIN just to put an already nonfunctioning weapon to safe. Seems a little OCD doesn't it? Especially when seconds are crucial? This is the point I'm trying to make... If the gun is empty.... no need for safety... if the gun has malfunctioned... the hammer has been released and or the bolt is out of battery and you CAN'T place it on safe.. And if neither of these two conditions exist....Then there is no reason to have a pistol in my hand in the first place... Now if were talking the need to go hands on for whatever reason, then yea, no shit you place on safe... but a transition is for a specific reason... and when I practice them, I don't do it with a full gun, I run one round at a time and shoot the gun dry. How you train is how you fight. "ill do this step this way in practice and this way fer real... If this happens then I will do this when I transition/move/react, but I will perform the action in an entirely different manner if this, this or this happens". Me thinks you are over complicating it, Keep it simple, short and same. When you start adding or subtracting steps from your manual of arms, you greatly increase you incidence of failure. I know I will lose internet komando kewl points for saying this, but it is what it is. Get in the habit of safing your weapons when you are not actively shooting and the life you save may be your own. |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 8:46:30 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really don't see the logic behind this question?? If you are in an engagment where your rifle goes down and HAVE to switch to your secondary...the situation is bad enough that you are required to be engaged immediately. The AR platform will not cycle the safety unless it is cocked...sooo, assuming you attempted to fire the weapon and got a *CLICK*...it is no longer cocked. You would have to charge the bolt AGAIN just to put an already nonfunctioning weapon to safe. Seems a little OCD doesn't it? Especially when seconds are crucial? This is the point I'm trying to make... If the gun is empty.... no need for safety... if the gun has malfunctioned... the hammer has been released and or the bolt is out of battery and you CAN'T place it on safe.. And if neither of these two conditions exist....Then there is no reason to have a pistol in my hand in the first place... Now if were talking the need to go hands on for whatever reason, then yea, no shit you place on safe... but a transition is for a specific reason... and when I practice them, I don't do it with a full gun, I run one round at a time and shoot the gun dry. How you train is how you fight. "ill do this step this way in practice and this way fer real... If this happens then I will do this when I transition/move/react, but I will perform the action in an entirely different manner if this, this or this happens". Me thinks you are over complicating it, Keep it simple, short and same. When you start adding or subtracting steps from your manual of arms, you greatly increase you incidence of failure. I know I will lose internet komando kewl points for saying this, but it is what it is. Get in the habit of safing your weapons when you are not actively shooting and the life you save may be your own. What a coincidence... cause I'm thinking your doing the same thing... What could be simpler then 'dead trigger.. go to Pistol"? I think your confusing when to use a safety... No one that I have read is disputing to use the safety when your not shooting, but there simply is no valid reason to if your either empty or having a malfunction ,which are basically the two primary reasons to go to a pistol (Assuming one has one). If you want to put your safety on ... or make the attempt every time.. fine, I don't, and have for years...and running an AR is not a new concept to me... |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 9:02:09 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Safety can be secondary to immidiate life threating scenarios as they present themselves. Fact is if you train safety on when transitioning thats what you will do. If you dont then you may end up with a hole in your leg. Safety 1st is just that. This, only time safety should not go on, is if you have a malfunction that prevents it. Pratice flipping it on, before you drop the primary. Do it enough and you will start doing it on auto mode. |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 12:55:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Safety can be secondary to immidiate life threating scenarios as they present themselves. Fact is if you train safety on when transitioning thats what you will do. If you dont then you may end up with a hole in your leg. Safety 1st is just that. This, only time safety should not go on, is if you have a malfunction that prevents it. Pratice flipping it on, before you drop the primary. Do it enough and you will start doing it on auto mode. If you are doing transitions for a living, this is how it will be done, right, wrong or indifferent. A dozen or more guys on the line, moving around, in the house and transitioning while easily going through 500 rounds in a session requires it. Dummy rounds and downloaded mags aren't conducive to organizational training and work much better in informal and personal venues. Then there's the issue of keeping guns safe when not transitioning and the instilling of such procedure in the masses. Safety gets thumbed. |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 4:29:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Sweep the safety.
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Posted: 10/31/2010 10:26:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Sweep the safety. Yeah, it's not complicated. Drag your thumb across the safety to move it to safe if possible as your hand is coming off the grip. I say "if possible" because if the hammer is down it won't go on safe. The preponderance of aftermarket big grips that make it hard to readily manipulate the safety don't really help this situation. And another reason why I consistently argue for a 45° travel safety. |
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Posted: 11/19/2010 9:43:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Why are you transitioning from an operational long gun? If you want to practice transitions, make it realistic and safe.
If you have a failure to fire and the hammer is forward, the selector will not move to safe. Frankly, a bolt locked to the rear on a empty magazine and transitioning, it doesn't get much safer than that. |
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Posted: 11/20/2010 2:17:58 AM EDT
[#40]
I guess a lot of you guys train that applying the safety is a separate step in the transition. It should be one fluid motion as your weapon is moved out of the way to transition to your side arm. If you always train that safety goes on, you will always remove safety when you wan to "go". IMHO and IME the safety should be on at all times unless you are actively shooting. Applying the safety as I transition to my secondary weapon system safety goes on. I can think of plenty of reasons to transition to my secondary weapon other than my primary going down. I guess you are some super specwaroperator that has no need to avoid a ND when you trip over something as you are moving through a house or gun fight, because, well you are super awesome and everything around you is hostile including your team and or your self. Not safing your weapon would get you bounced out of ever class/course/training I have ever been through or taught. But YMMV.
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Posted: 11/20/2010 2:50:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
I do it all the time, there is NO reason not to at least attempt to engage it. Think about it, every extra piece of BS you have on your gear is another thing to snag the trigger. If your safety is going to go on it will go on. Then again, I also guide my rifle down as I reach for my pistol, not just "Drop it". Umm yes there is. Your strong hand should transition immediately to your sidearm instead of dicking with the safety on an inop weapon. Once the immediate threat is over is the time to get the rifle back in service, reload, make safe, etc. |
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Posted: 11/20/2010 7:23:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Why are you transitioning from an operational long gun? If you want to practice transitions, make it realistic and safe. If you have a failure to fire and the hammer is forward, the selector will not move to safe. Frankly, a bolt locked to the rear on a empty magazine and transitioning, it doesn't get much safer than that. That's kinda my point.... |
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Posted: 11/20/2010 7:25:02 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I guess a lot of you guys train that applying the safety is a separate step in the transition. It should be one fluid motion as your weapon is moved out of the way to transition to your side arm. If you always train that safety goes on, you will always remove safety when you wan to "go". IMHO and IME the safety should be on at all times unless you are actively shooting. Applying the safety as I transition to my secondary weapon system safety goes on. I can think of plenty of reasons to transition to my secondary weapon other than my primary going down. I guess you are some super specwaroperator that has no need to avoid a ND when you trip over something as you are moving through a house or gun fight, because, well you are super awesome and everything around you is hostile including your team and or your self. Not safing your weapon would get you bounced out of ever class/course/training I have ever been through or taught. But YMMV. No one in this thread has advocated not using the safety for anything other then a bonafide dead gun,time to transition now scenario...This discussion was civil... perhaps we can continue down that path..... |
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Posted: 11/20/2010 9:08:03 AM EDT
[#44]
There are times and places to manipulate the manual selector/safety. Emergency transitions are not one of them. It adds a step as your firing hand should be breaking away from the pistol grip of your primary to get to your secondary RFN. I have seen shooters waste time trying to figure out why their selector doesn't move during a FTF when they need to continue fighting with their secondary. I see it as a training scar, manipulating a safety on a dead gun when it is superfluous.
Now, doing a deliberate transition where I have an operational long gun but decide that I would rather have my secondary up for environmental/conditional reasons, there is no argument that the selector should be put on safe. Now, if you want to discuss the merits of transitioning away from a more capable primary to a ballistically inefficient secondary, I am up for it... |
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Posted: 11/23/2010 10:49:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
There are times and places to manipulate the manual selector/safety. Emergency transitions are not one of them. It adds a step as your firing hand should be breaking away from the pistol grip of your primary to get to your secondary RFN. I have seen shooters waste time trying to figure out why their selector doesn't move during a FTF when they need to continue fighting with their secondary. I see it as a training scar, manipulating a safety on a dead gun when it is superfluous. Now, doing a deliberate transition where I have an operational long gun but decide that I would rather have my secondary up for environmental/conditional reasons, there is no argument that the selector should be put on safe. Now, if you want to discuss the merits of transitioning away from a more capable primary to a ballistically inefficient secondary, I am up for it... So you have one action when you have a malf or run out of ammo and a different action for when you want to transition with a running gun? I see that as a training scar. How about commonality of training like this. Finger in trigger guard? Safety off. Finger out of trigger guard? Safety on. Safety not functioning? Don't worry about it until you have time to fix it. Shooters worrying about safeties not functioning can be trained to do it correctly in 10 minutes. This works in pistols, shotguns and rifles. Gringop |
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Posted: 11/23/2010 1:38:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Case in point, guy transitions to his side arm because his primary malfunctioned, as he continues forward, his trigger gets caught by another piece of his gear his "dead" rifle fires putting a round between his feet. It was later determined that his rifle had enough dirt/grit in it that his bolt hung to the rear causing his bolt to "lock back" when actuality all it did was hang open part way and in the course of the next few seconds of being bumped around returned to battery and patiently waited for the trigger to get hung up in his gear, apply 4.5 lbs of PSI and cause the weapon to fire nearly hitting the trainee in the leg. We had been down loading mags and loading dummy rounds so he figured that the weapon was safe. After the wake up call, he now is as anal as I am about safeing the weapon every time it is not being fired. I can think of playing the lottery and having better odds of winning than replicating that malfunction/AD/ND again, but then again people win the lottery every day. YMMV.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 4:25:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Case in point, guy transitions to his side arm because his primary malfunctioned, as he continues forward, his trigger gets caught by another piece of his gear his "dead" rifle fires putting a round between his feet. It was later determined that his rifle had enough dirt/grit in it that his bolt hung to the rear causing his bolt to "lock back" when actuality all it did was hang open part way and in the course of the next few seconds of being bumped around returned to battery and patiently waited for the trigger to get hung up in his gear, apply 4.5 lbs of PSI and cause the weapon to fire nearly hitting the trainee in the leg. We had been down loading mags and loading dummy rounds so he figured that the weapon was safe. After the wake up call, he now is as anal as I am about safeing the weapon every time it is not being fired. I can think of playing the lottery and having better odds of winning than replicating that malfunction/AD/ND again, but then again people win the lottery every day. YMMV. I would like to know how this scenario is physically possible given how an AR works. Regardless if the bolt is partially in battery, the hammer is going to fall against the firing pin when "your guy" presses the trigger and if the bolt is partially out of battery the hammer is not going to magically rest it self so it can re fall on a firing pin that is now in battery...
Not to mention that once the hammer falls, you cannot place the selector switch back to safe anyhow..... Please explain. |
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Posted: 11/23/2010 4:39:41 PM EDT
[#48]
The hammer isn't going to fall when it's out of battery.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 5:45:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Perhaps I was not clear enough.
He was firing a string of shots when the bolt got hung up on the way forward. He tried squeezing the trigger, nothing happened. So he transitioned to his side arm and some time between transitioning to his side arm and being jostled/bumped/whacked around the bolt finally went into battery and after it went fully into battery did his trigger get caught in some of his web gear and the rifle then fired. Had he done as instructed, safe'ing the weapon the now functioning weapon would not have discharged a round "accidentally". During the AAR he figured that he was on a snap cap or out of rounds so he didn't need to put the safety on. He now understands why we are trained to always put the safety on during transitions. You could probably go a lifetime and not replicate that incident, but then again... Make sense now? |
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Posted: 11/23/2010 6:40:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
The hammer isn't going to fall when it's out of battery. Sure it will. . Close the bolt on a dummy rd placed in the ejection port so that the bolt closes on it (Like a stove pipe,Bolt is about 1/2" to 1"" out of battery) and place on semi and press..... Hammer releases. and more importantly...selector lever cannot be placed back to safe. Now granted, if the BCG is further out of battery then an 1' or more, then yes, the hammer will not release... Maybe I'm reading to much into his scenario, but how does one get such an amount of dirt/debris into such a closed system that it hangs the BCG that far out of battery??? I've run AR's in a lot of environments and if you Make a gun ready.. load it and close the dust cover, and then after firing give it a quick look and close the cover, something that if you train on, you can do instinctively. Sounds more like a flaw in training and the reaction is run the safety regardless. |
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