I'm looking at buying a pistol from a guy on gun broker. A Beretta 92FS

The pistol is new in box, but is a 2000 model year.

Pistol says it has a california approved lock.

Since this pistol has already took ownership, does it count as used?

What about the spent casing? It probably doesn't have one.

Can I have it sent to a FFL and take ownership a week later?

Thanks Frank

I am far from being a lawyer....

That being said, as far as I know it is only when a gun comes new from a manufacturer that the fired shell casing is required. A used gun would be exempt according to what I understood to be the case.

In the event that I am wrong (entirely possible) the guy at Engage Armament in Kensington said that they have a manufacturer's license and are legally able to execute the fired shell casing requirement.

double tap.

If you are buying the pistol from an Owner who purchased it in his name but  did not shoot it, then it is a used gun. If you are buying it from a dealer who had the gun in his inventory since 2000, it is a new gun. If it is a new gun, you will have to check further about  the shell casing requirement.

Quoted: I am far from being a lawyer.... That being said, as far as I know it is only when a gun comes new from a manufacturer that the fired shell casing is required. A used gun would be exempt according to what I understood to be the case. In the event that I am wrong (entirely possible) the guy at Engage Armament in Kensington said that they have a manufacturer's license and are legally able to execute the fired shell casing requirement.

Thought MSP would do the shell casing for you too in case the new gun did not come with them.

Quoted: Quoted: I am far from being a lawyer.... That being said, as far as I know it is only when a gun comes new from a manufacturer that the fired shell casing is required. A used gun would be exempt according to what I understood to be the case. In the event that I am wrong (entirely possible) the guy at Engage Armament in Kensington said that they have a manufacturer's license and are legally able to execute the fired shell casing requirement. Thought MSP would do the shell casing for you too in case the new gun did not come with them.

That would be nice if MSP would do that. I guess I could call and find out.

Quoted: If you are buying the pistol from an Owner who purchased it in his name but  did not shoot it, then it is a used gun. If you are buying it from a dealer who had the gun in his inventory since 2000, it is a new gun. If it is a new gun, you will have to check further about  the shell casing requirement.

I talked to someone at Scotts gunsmithing and this is the same info they gave me.

I have an inquiry to the seller to see if it has a shell casing and/or it was sold
to a named person.

Thanks for the info guys, Frank

I believe the law that all new firearms sold in Maryland must have a fired shell casing began sometime in the year 2000.

Quoted: If you are buying the pistol from an Owner who purchased it in his name but  did not shoot it, then it is a used gun. If you are buying it from a dealer who had the gun in his inventory since 2000, it is a new gun. If it is a new gun, you will have to check further about  the shell casing requirement.

Are you sure about the year 2000?

The guy at A&D pawn told me as long as it was before 2001 it was OK...

Answered my own question,

found this on the internet
"Maryland legislature enacts laws restricting importation into the state any handgun manufactured after October 2000 which does not include a fired shell casing, the casing will be submitted to the Maryland State Police Crime Lab for future identification purposes".

So It's late 2000, but not all.

It just so happens the gun I'm looking at is a 1999 or 2000.

legal updates

The way I believe it worked with my CZ75BD I got transfered about a year and a half ago was.  If its used you don't need the special lock or the shell casing, it just needs to be on the maryland approved list of handguns.  My 75 was used no shell casing no locks of any sort filled out my application waited my 7-9 days and all done, no bubbles no troubles.

Quoted: I am far from being a lawyer.... That being said, as far as I know it is only when a gun comes new from a manufacturer that the fired shell casing is required. A used gun would be exempt according to what I understood to be the case. In the event that I am wrong (entirely possible) the guy at Engage Armament in Kensington said that they have a manufacturer's license and are legally able to execute the fired shell casing requirement.

The pistol is new(2003), never sold to an individual.

Thanks TallNorton for referring Engage Armamnet.

Frank

Let's get this straight.

There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL.

This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP.

Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers.

My old FFL would only transfer with shell casings and a lock if it was new and after 2002 or whenever the lock law was. I hope your ffl is correct in this, perhaps I should find a better FFL. Some of them want to be on the safe side a little too much. One FFL would not put an omega lock on or any other lock because he said it would make him liable for any time someone shot somebody when it should have been locked...like kids shooting kids. It almost doesn't seem right to be able to buy a new one without casings from a dealer elsewhere but not be able to buy from an in-state dealer. Really screws the MD dealers, but then again, that's our bass ackwards gun laws that help keep crime up.

Maybe we needed to lobby the legislature to drop the ballistics fingerprinting that costs millions per year and doesn't solve crimes. Maybe then we wouldn't need to have them raise our taxes in special session.


I was going to write my state legislature but i didn't think of it early enough, and they are most likely going to be done.

On a similar note, they seem to have passed a law to allow the police depts to trade in their weapons when they get new ones. I hope we see a large increase in decent used guns in the near future. Some police officers don't shoot their weapons but once a year to qualify.....unless you live in Baltimore

Quoted: Let's get this straight. There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL. This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP. Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers.

What FFl do you use? Name and number?
I may have to use them.
Thanks, Frank

Quoted: Quoted: Let's get this straight. There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL. This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP. Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers. What FFl do you use? Name and number? I may have to use them. Thanks, Frank

I talked to a certain Pawn/class III dealer in Glen Burnie today. He is certain
that any new gun(after 2001) coming into maryland has to have a shell
casing. Even if buying from an out-of-state FFL.

I tried to call the MD State Police Liscensing Division(410-653-4500) around 2:30, and said they were
closed.(usually I think they close at 4:00).
Guess I'll have to wait until monday.

I really found a good gun for a good price and I'm afraid to buy it.

The dealer in G.B. has me nervous about the Engage Armament option. G.B. dealer says 2 years down the road they might come knocking on your door to say you illegally
purchased a firearm.

When I talked to the guy from Engage A. He said the Law just says "A Manufacturer" Has to do the shell casing. Meaning any Manufacturer.
(which he is).  Just wondering if the Law means THE Manufacturer?

I need to get a straight answer from the state police, I just hope I talk to someone
who knows what there talking about.

I tried google-ing and checking State police website the MD law on shell casing. Can't find the actual Law, so I can read it and understand it.

Can anyone refer a link?

Jeesh, it's frustrating trying to buy a new gun out of state......

edit-- Also, anyone know the law about buying a new gun out of state, say PA, and
transporting it to MD after you purchased it in the other state?

Thanks, Frank

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let's get this straight. There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL. This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP. Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers. What FFl do you use? Name and number? I may have to use them. Thanks, Frank I talked to a certain Pawn/class III dealer in Glen Burnie today. He is certain that any new gun(after 2001) coming into maryland has to have a shell casing. Even if buying from an out-of-state FFL. I tried to call the MD State Police Liscensing Division(410-653-4500) around 2:30, and said they were closed.(usually I think they close at 4:00). Guess I'll have to wait until monday. I really found a good gun for a good price and I'm afraid to buy it. The dealer in G.B. has me nervous about the Engage Armament option. G.B. dealer says 2 years down the road they might come knocking on your door to say you illegally purchased a firearm. When I talked to the guy from Engage A. He said the Law just says "A Manufacturer" Has to do the shell casing. Meaning any Manufacturer. (which he is).  Just wondering if the Law means THE Manufacturer? I need to get a straight answer from the state police, I just hope I talk to someone who knows what there talking about. I tried google-ing and checking State police website the MD law on shell casing. Can't find the actual Law, so I can read it and understand it. Can anyone refer a link? Jeesh, it's frustrating trying to buy a new gun out of state...... edit-- Also, anyone know the law about buying a new gun out of state, say PA, and transporting it to MD after you purchased it in the other state? Thanks, Frank

The pawn shop was right. You probably talked to A&D. they have their stuff straight. Unless Engagement Armament is the manufacturer of the weapon then they cannot fire a shell casing, nor can any other FFL. It has to be the manufacturer of the handgun, and unless that manufacturer, and make of the handgun is listed on the roster, the gun still cant be sold in Maryland. Unless you have a dealer willing to jeapordize their Maryland Pistol and Revolver License your not going to get much help. The MSP audits our shop every year. they have very detailed records, and will find descrepencies.

By any chance did you call our shop initially and speak to Tony? Scotts Gunsmithing?

One option you do have is to call the manufacturer of the pistol and ask them if the pistol is sent back to them if they will fire a shell casing. I know SIG does this, but i cant vouch for other manufacturers. We recieved a gun from SIG without one and we sent it back to SIG and they fired a shell casing for us. We have a test trap in our shop and could easily do it ourselves but the shell casing has to be in an envelope with the manufacturers FFL data, manufacture date, and pistol data on it. We have forgotten to send them in before and the MSP has called to ask where they were.

If you want answers directly call the MSP and ask for Sergeant Aubaugh. hell answer your questions.  It may be hard to get him since they relocated. Since the move they must have hired some lazy MVA workers at the licensing division. They are impossible to deal with lately.

I did notice on one of your posts that the pistol is a previously owned beretta model 92. If it was previously owned by an individual then no shell casing is required, but if its been in an FFL's posession then its still a new gun and requires the shell casing.

Chad

Quoted: Let's get this straight. There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL. This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP. Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers.

Recon IR,

Your dealer is treading on thin ice. I dont personally agree with the laws of this state, but I do my best to follow them. You shouldnt tell people what that dealer is doing for their sake. If a dealer tick off the MSP, CITY, COUNTY, or ATF they will find a way to get the delaer. Period. Look at what they did with Sandy Abrams. He thought he was covered by going around the law, and they still got him.

A Maryland resident is breaking the law if they buy a handgun from a non maryland dealer. They can buy long guns from out of state FFL's but not handguns.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let's get this straight. There is NO REQUIREMENT to submit a spent casing to the MSP from any NEW gun unless you by it from a local MD dealer or directly from a MANUFACTURER to your FFL. This is why I almost always buy my handguns from out of state dealers. Even if they come with spent casings, my FFL will give them to me, not the MSP. Only manufacturers need to worry about sending spent casings out with their guns, and only to states that require it. This is why they do not require it from out of state dealers selling to you, they would not be likely to have them with the spent casings. It would have been incredibly restrictive to force all Marylanders to buy only from local dealers. What FFl do you use? Name and number? I may have to use them. Thanks, Frank I talked to a certain Pawn/class III dealer in Glen Burnie today. He is certain that any new gun(after 2001) coming into maryland has to have a shell casing. Even if buying from an out-of-state FFL. I tried to call the MD State Police Liscensing Division(410-653-4500) around 2:30, and said they were closed.(usually I think they close at 4:00). Guess I'll have to wait until monday. I really found a good gun for a good price and I'm afraid to buy it. The dealer in G.B. has me nervous about the Engage Armament option. G.B. dealer says 2 years down the road they might come knocking on your door to say you illegally purchased a firearm. When I talked to the guy from Engage A. He said the Law just says "A Manufacturer" Has to do the shell casing. Meaning any Manufacturer. (which he is).  Just wondering if the Law means THE Manufacturer? I need to get a straight answer from the state police, I just hope I talk to someone who knows what there talking about. I tried google-ing and checking State police website the MD law on shell casing. Can't find the actual Law, so I can read it and understand it. Can anyone refer a link? Jeesh, it's frustrating trying to buy a new gun out of state...... edit-- Also, anyone know the law about buying a new gun out of state, say PA, and transporting it to MD after you purchased it in the other state? Thanks, Frank The pawn shop was right. You probably talked to A&D. they have their stuff straight. Unless Engagement Armament is the manufacturer of the weapon then they cannot fire a shell casing, nor can any other FFL. It has to be the manufacturer of the handgun, and unless that manufacturer, and make of the handgun is listed on the roster, the gun still cant be sold in Maryland. Unless you have a dealer willing to jeapordize their Maryland Pistol and Revolver License your not going to get much help. The MSP audits our shop every year. they have very detailed records, and will find descrepencies. By any chance did you call our shop initially and speak to Tony? Scotts Gunsmithing? One option you do have is to call the manufacturer of the pistol and ask them if the pistol is sent back to them if they will fire a shell casing. I know SIG does this, but i cant vouch for other manufacturers. We recieved a gun from SIG without one and we sent it back to SIG and they fired a shell casing for us. We have a test trap in our shop and could easily do it ourselves but the shell casing has to be in an envelope with the manufacturers FFL data, manufacture date, and pistol data on it. We have forgotten to send them in before and the MSP has called to ask where they were. If you want answers directly call the MSP and ask for Sergeant Aubaugh. hell answer your questions.  It may be hard to get him since they relocated. Since the move they must have hired some lazy MVA workers at the licensing division. They are impossible to deal with lately. I did notice on one of your posts that the pistol is a previously owned beretta model 92. If it was previously owned by an individual then no shell casing is required, but if its been in an FFL's posession then its still a new gun and requires the shell casing. Chad

You sound like you're making more sense about this. I am thinking I would love to find an FFL that would do a transfer without shell casings, as long as he is the only one that gets in trouble. It sounded too good to be true to not have to deal with shell casings. I suppose if someone wants to ask the MSP if this particular dealer is correct in not needing shell casings, they may be in for an audit too.

The pawn shop was right. You probably talked to A&D. they have their stuff straight. Unless Engagement Armament is the manufacturer of the weapon then they cannot fire a shell casing, nor can any other FFL. It has to be the manufacturer of the handgun, and unless that manufacturer, and make of the handgun is listed on the roster, the gun still cant be sold in Maryland. Unless you have a dealer willing to jeapordize their Maryland Pistol and Revolver License your not going to get much help. The MSP audits our shop every year. they have very detailed records, and will find descrepencies. By any chance did you call our shop initially and speak to Tony? Scotts Gunsmithing? One option you do have is to call the manufacturer of the pistol and ask them if the pistol is sent back to them if they will fire a shell casing. I know SIG does this, but i cant vouch for other manufacturers. We recieved a gun from SIG without one and we sent it back to SIG and they fired a shell casing for us. We have a test trap in our shop and could easily do it ourselves but the shell casing has to be in an envelope with the manufacturers FFL data, manufacture date, and pistol data on it. We have forgotten to send them in before and the MSP has called to ask where they were. If you want answers directly call the MSP and ask for Sergeant Aubaugh. hell answer your questions.  It may be hard to get him since they relocated. Since the move they must have hired some lazy MVA workers at the licensing division. They are impossible to deal with lately. I did notice on one of your posts that the pistol is a previously owned beretta model 92. If it was previously owned by an individual then no shell casing is required, but if its been in an FFL's posession then its still a new gun and requires the shell casing. Chad

Yes , that was me that called. Initially it was a used beretta.

Now I'm looking for new. A Beretta 92 inox and a beretta 96 Elite II or Inox Brigadier.
Which MD handgun roster lists all 92 and 96 models.

I wonder if Beretta would accept a pistol and do the shell casing?  

Chad, could you check on monday? If they will, I'll transfer through you guys.
Talked to you already, Chad, Thank you
Thanks, Frank

Quoted: The pawn shop was right. You probably talked to A&D. they have their stuff straight. Unless Engagement Armament is the manufacturer of the weapon then they cannot fire a shell casing, nor can any other FFL. It has to be the manufacturer of the handgun, and unless that manufacturer, and make of the handgun is listed on the roster, the gun still cant be sold in Maryland. Unless you have a dealer willing to jeapordize their Maryland Pistol and Revolver License your not going to get much help. The MSP audits our shop every year. they have very detailed records, and will find descrepencies. By any chance did you call our shop initially and speak to Tony? Scotts Gunsmithing? One option you do have is to call the manufacturer of the pistol and ask them if the pistol is sent back to them if they will fire a shell casing. I know SIG does this, but i cant vouch for other manufacturers. We recieved a gun from SIG without one and we sent it back to SIG and they fired a shell casing for us. We have a test trap in our shop and could easily do it ourselves but the shell casing has to be in an envelope with the manufacturers FFL data, manufacture date, and pistol data on it. We have forgotten to send them in before and the MSP has called to ask where they were. If you want answers directly call the MSP and ask for Sergeant Aubaugh. hell answer your questions.  It may be hard to get him since they relocated. Since the move they must have hired some lazy MVA workers at the licensing division. They are impossible to deal with lately. I did notice on one of your posts that the pistol is a previously owned beretta model 92. If it was previously owned by an individual then no shell casing is required, but if its been in an FFL's posession then its still a new gun and requires the shell casing. Chad Yes , that was me that called. Initially it was a used beretta. Now I'm looking for new. A Beretta 92 inox and a beretta 96 Elite II or Inox Brigadier. Which MD handgun roster lists all 92 and 96 models. I wonder if Beretta would accept a pistol and do the shell casing?   Chad, could you check on monday? If they will, I'll transfer through you guys. Talked to you already, Chad, Thank you Thanks, Frank

It was nice to get to chat person to person today. Your very welcome for the help. I hope you get the pistol your looking for. Well do whatever we can to help even if you dont make a purchase from us. Anytime you need anything just shoot me a Private Message or give the shop a call. Im only there for certain on Saturdays. Have a great weekend.

Chad

Quoted: edit: Some of them want to be on the safe side a little too much. One FFL would not put an omega lock on or any other lock because he said it would make him liable for any time someone shot somebody when it should have been locked...like kids shooting kids. . .  but then again, that's our bass ackwards gun laws that help keep crime up.

Too true. These laws really have us at each other's throats, don't they? And the number of complaints about the way gun owners & MD FFLs interact - it seems to be at an all time high.  Seems like this legal mess would discourage many ordinary folks from even trying to buy a gun in MD.  Could this have been the intended effect in passing these laws? I think so.

Fight back: www.MarylandShallIssue.org

Question


How about if you buy a new Lower(frame only) of a beretta 92....How could you even
get a shell casing?

I guess a used  frame wouldn't be a problem. Just a normal transfer through a dealer?

Frank

My friends in MD bought stripped 1911 Caspian frames from Walters (now gone sadly) and his rule was: no barrel or slide?

-No shell casing required.

I guess it comes down to finding an FFL who has the best set of rules. As for consistency in MD law? Good luck.  Opinions will vary - but until there is an opinion from the Court of Appeals, its all guess work.

OK, I have been busy so I am a bit late getting this done. I decided to do a little research for the actual wording of the law. It was not easy but I found it in two places, including one newer bill that was attempting to repeal the casing law in MD.

Here is the text I found in the repeal (SB 758) text:
This is straight from Maryland government web sites.


Current Law: Gun manufacturers that ship or transport a handgun to be sold, rented, or
transferred in the State must include in the box with the handgun in a separate sealed
container: (1) a projectile discharged from that handgun; (2) a shell casing of a projectile
SB 758 / Page 2
discharged from that handgun; and (3) any additional information that identifies that
handgun, projectile, or shell casing as required by the Secretary of the State Police.
Upon receipt of a handgun, a dealer must confirm to the Department of State Police that
the manufacturer has complied with the provisions of the proposed law. Upon the sale or
transfer of the handgun, the dealer must forward the sealed container to the State Police
Crime Laboratory. Upon receipt of the projectile, shell casing, and required information,
the State Police must enter the information into pertinent databases.


Here is text I found on this site:

Here they state definitions:

(A) (1) IN THIS SECTION THE FOLLOWING WORDS HAVE THE MEANINGS   INDICATED.

(2) "MANUFACTURER" MEANS ANY PERSON WHO POSSESSES A VALID FEDERAL LICENSE ISSUED BY THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY THAT PERMITS THAT PERSON TO ENGAGE IN THE BUSINESS OF MANUFACTURING FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALE OR DISTRIBUTION.

(3) "PROJECTILE" MEANS THAT PART OF HANDGUN AMMUNITION THAT IS, BY MEANS OF AN EXPLOSION, EXPELLED THROUGH THE BARREL OF THE HANDGUN.

(4) "SHELL CASING" MEANS THAT PART OF HANDGUN AMMUNITION THAT CONTAINS THE PRIMER AND PROPELLENT POWDER TO DISCHARGE THE PROJECTILE.

Then they state the actual wording of the law:

(B) ANY MANUFACTURER THAT SHIPS OR TRANSPORTS A HANDGUN TO BE SOLD, RENTED, OR TRANSFERRED IN THE STATE SHALL INCLUDE IN THE BOX WITH THE HANDGUN IN A SEPARATE SEALED CONTAINER:

(1) A PROJECTILE DISCHARGED FROM THAT HANDGUN;

(2) A SHELL CASING OF A PROJECTILE DISCHARGED FROM THAT HANDGUN; AND

(3) ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT IDENTIFIES THE HANDGUN, PROJECTILE, OR SHELL CASING AND IS REQUIRED BY THE SECRETARY TO MEET THE
PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION.

(C) UPON RECEIPT OF A HANDGUN FROM THE MANUFACTURER, THE DEALER SHALL CONFIRM TO THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE POLICE THAT THE MANUFACTURER COMPLIED WITH THE PROVISIONS OF SUBSECTION (B).

(D) UPON THE SALE OR TRANSFER OF THE HANDGUN, THE DEALER SHALL FORWARD THE SEALED CONTAINER TO THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE POLICE CRIME
LABORATORY.

(E) UPON RECEIPT OF THE PROJECTILE, SHELL CASING, AND REQUIRED INFORMATION, THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE POLICE CRIME LABORATORY SHALL
ENTER THE INFORMATION IN ALL PERTINENT DATABASES.

(F) THE SECRETARY SHALL PROMULGATE REGULATIONS TO CARRY OUT THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION.



I think it is pretty clear. So buy all your guns from out of state dealers and you don't have to worry.