Legal hunting handgun?

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Posted: 11/15/2018 10:47:36 AM EDT

Yes, I'm going to ask the DNR as well but would an AR pistol be considered a legal handgun for deer hunting? My zone is shotgun and I'm tired of using slugs and am thinking if that would work, I've found my new hunting rig.

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:13:04 AM EDT

[#1]

I think we had a thread about this earlier in the fall that hashed things out pretty thoroughly, but the short version is that you can do it, as long as you meet the dimensional requirements set by the state (which I'm sure someone who isn't supposed to be working right now will link).

I've also heard through the grapevine that the DNR is holding a stricter interpretation of what constitutes a pistol brace, but haven't seen any authoritative confirmation.

Posted: 11/15/2018 1:22:21 PM EDT

[#2]

Thanks. In my email to the DNR, I also asked for any clarifying information on what would/would not be legal. Even if they say its okay, a copy of that email and the shipping invoice of the pistol "kit" would accompany me on next years hunt.

Posted: 11/15/2018 2:28:04 PM EDT

[#3]

I just got back the response from DNR (very quick response):

Thanks for contacting the Minnesota DNR with your question.

An AR can be legal. It must meet all the requirements of any legal big game weapon as given on page 60 of the current hunting regs.

To be a legal handgun for use in the shotgun zone, it must meet all those requirements, and then there are added stipulations, based on the statutory definition of a handgun. It has to be <26” overall, with a barrel of 16”or less, and it can have nothing that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, like a collapsible stock or a rifle sight. (Pistol sights are okay.) If it has a stabilizing arm brace, it must be fired with the arms held straight out in front, not pulled back to the shoulder.

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In short, an AR pistol "could" be used with the biggest issue being the overall length. Now it's time to start planning next years deer pistol build.

Posted: 11/15/2018 5:26:19 PM EDT

[#4]

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and it can have nothing that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, like a collapsible stock or a rifle sight. (Pistol sights are okay.)

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That's... interesting.

Posted: 11/15/2018 6:08:23 PM EDT

[#5]

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That's... interesting.

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I thought the same thing. I'm thinking in terms of eye relief for this. A peep sight or short eye relief scope is out because you need to get your face near the optic by shouldering the weapon. However, a red dot or similar with unlimited eye relief should be GTG.

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:41:29 PM EDT

[#6]

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That's... interesting.

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And by interesting, I assume you agree the DNR completely made that up as it's clearly not a statutory limit of MN's handgun/shotgun hunting regulations.

Posted: 11/16/2018 3:22:45 AM EDT

[#7]

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I thought the same thing. I'm thinking in terms of eye relief for this. A peep sight or short eye relief scope is out because you need to get your face near the optic by shouldering the weapon. However, a red dot or similar with unlimited eye relief should be GTG.

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Quoted:

That's... interesting.

I thought the same thing. I'm thinking in terms of eye relief for this. A peep sight or short eye relief scope is out because you need to get your face near the optic by shouldering the weapon. However, a red dot or similar with unlimited eye relief should be GTG.

Where the heck does the DNR (or better yet, statute) define pistol vs. rifle sights?
I'd follow up and ask the DNR what they consider the difference to be, just out of curiosity.

If I rest my cheek on the buffer tube of my AR pistol and look through the MBUS nothing touches my chest or shoulder.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever use a .223 pistol for deer. My 12 ga. with Hornady SST slugs does just fine.

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:52:29 AM EDT

[#8]

If it has a stabilizing arm brace, it must be fired with the arms held straight out in front, not pulled back to the shoulder.

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Is this a Minnesota interpretation or just the DNR? Do they typically stipulate how you have to fire weapons?

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:58:44 AM EDT

[#9]

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And by interesting, I assume you agree the DNR completely made that up as it's clearly not a statutory limit of MN's handgun/shotgun hunting regulations.

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That's... interesting.

And by interesting, I assume you agree the DNR completely made that up as it's clearly not a statutory limit of MN's handgun/shotgun hunting regulations.

You would be correct

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:59:58 AM EDT

[#10]

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Where the heck does the DNR (or better yet, statute) define pistol vs. rifle sights?
I'd follow up and ask the DNR what they consider the difference to be, just out of curiosity.

If I rest my cheek on the buffer tube of my AR pistol and look through the MBUS nothing touches my chest or shoulder.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever use a .223 pistol for deer. My 12 ga. with Hornady SST slugs does just fine.

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Quoted:

That's... interesting.

I thought the same thing. I'm thinking in terms of eye relief for this. A peep sight or short eye relief scope is out because you need to get your face near the optic by shouldering the weapon. However, a red dot or similar with unlimited eye relief should be GTG.

Where the heck does the DNR (or better yet, statute) define pistol vs. rifle sights?
I'd follow up and ask the DNR what they consider the difference to be, just out of curiosity.

If I rest my cheek on the buffer tube of my AR pistol and look through the MBUS nothing touches my chest or shoulder.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever use a .223 pistol for deer. My 12 ga. with Hornady SST slugs does just fine.

This is where I'm at, also. A dedicated slug gun brings the pain, and (like 99% of other Minnesota hunters) I'm not going to be shooting deer at ranges beyond what a 12ga sabot's capable of.

Posted: 11/16/2018 10:02:06 AM EDT

[#11]

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Is this a Minnesota interpretation or just the DNR? Do they typically stipulate how you have to fire weapons?

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It's the DNR attempting to grapple with the fact that the use of something like an AR pistol is clearly not the intention of allowing handguns to be used in the shotgun zone, but that updating the pertinent regulations to say as much would potentially have a negative impact on hunter numbers, which is the last thing they need to be doing right now.

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:03:04 PM EDT

[#12]

"rifle sight" So can't put a scope on non-AR handgun either?

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:45:59 PM EDT

[#13]

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"rifle sight" So can't put a scope on non-AR handgun either?

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I would figure so long as it's a long eye relief scope, it's a "pistol" scope.

Posted: 11/16/2018 3:38:49 PM EDT

[#14]

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I would figure so long as it's a long eye relief scope, it's a "pistol" scope.

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"rifle sight" So can't put a scope on non-AR handgun either?

I would figure so long as it's a long eye relief scope, it's a "pistol" scope.

Which has no legal basis or definition.

Posted: 11/16/2018 5:05:13 PM EDT

[#15]

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Which has no legal basis or definition.

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"rifle sight" So can't put a scope on non-AR handgun either?

I would figure so long as it's a long eye relief scope, it's a "pistol" scope.

Which has no legal basis or definition.

Ta-da!

The fun of playing the technicality game.

Posted: 11/17/2018 5:47:24 PM EDT

[#16]

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It's the DNR attempting to grapple with the fact that the use of something like an AR pistol is clearly not the intention of allowing handguns to be used in the shotgun zone, but that updating the pertinent regulations to say as much would potentially have a negative impact on hunter numbers, which is the last thing they need to be doing right now.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Is this a Minnesota interpretation or just the DNR? Do they typically stipulate how you have to fire weapons?

It's the DNR attempting to grapple with the fact that the use of something like an AR pistol is clearly not the intention of allowing handguns to be used in the shotgun zone, but that updating the pertinent regulations to say as much would potentially have a negative impact on hunter numbers, which is the last thing they need to be doing right now.

Sounds like it should be caliber specific rather than type, but then again you can get AR pistols in 9mm. I'm not a hunter or don't know anything about hunting what is the intent in making zones?

Posted: 11/17/2018 8:19:51 PM EDT

[#17]

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Where the heck does the DNR (or better yet, statute) define pistol vs. rifle sights?
I'd follow up and ask the DNR what they consider the difference to be, just out of curiosity.

If I rest my cheek on the buffer tube of my AR pistol and look through the MBUS nothing touches my chest or shoulder.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever use a .223 pistol for deer. My 12 ga. with Hornady SST slugs does just fine.

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Agreed and I would be building one in 6.5 Grendel for that very reason.

Just a pet peeve of mine but all of my guns must serve a purpose (hunting, ccw, etc.) but must also be fun to shoot at the range. Spending hundreds on something that only gets a few rounds a year through it is a waste to me.

And I know...YMMV

Posted: 11/18/2018 10:18:23 AM EDT

[#18]

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Sounds like it should be caliber specific rather than type, but then again you can get AR pistols in 9mm. I'm not a hunter or don't know anything about hunting what is the intent in making zones?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Is this a Minnesota interpretation or just the DNR? Do they typically stipulate how you have to fire weapons?

It's the DNR attempting to grapple with the fact that the use of something like an AR pistol is clearly not the intention of allowing handguns to be used in the shotgun zone, but that updating the pertinent regulations to say as much would potentially have a negative impact on hunter numbers, which is the last thing they need to be doing right now.

Sounds like it should be caliber specific rather than type, but then again you can get AR pistols in 9mm. I'm not a hunter or don't know anything about hunting what is the intent in making zones?

The traditional idea was that, because the southern 2/3 of the state is both more populous and more open, there was more of a risk with errant bullets from a .30-06 than 12 gauge slug. Allowing use of a handgun wasn't a concern, because hunting handguns were revolvers that, at most, were chambered in .44 Mag and used by a handful of people who wanted the challenge of hunting with a handgun.

Even when the Thompson/Center rifle caliber barrels came out, it still wasn't as much of an issue, because your grid-targeting yahoos weren't going to be running around with single-shot handguns when semi-auto shotguns were available.

Then technology happened, and people started building AR "pistols" to get around the law.

Posted: 11/19/2018 12:21:55 AM EDT

[#19]

I was actually thinking of an AR pistol in 300 blackout for this reason. Son is I'll enough next year to start deer hunting, and we will be in shotgun zone.

Posted: 11/20/2018 12:49:48 PM EDT

[#20]

Honestly the shotgun/rifle zone is stupid and unfounded.
Personal opinion, the AR pistol is a range toy. If you want to use it, fine by me. If your jimmies are rustled by the definition of a sight, you are probably wanting to put a regular rifle scope on it. Thus making if only usable as a shoulder fired weapon, (I'm not talking about ATF rulings and such) which is not what they allow. Your intent at that point is to violate the rules. They will slap your pee-pee. I'm sure if you were to ask for clarity on the "rifle sight" statement, they would explain that a purpose built scope for a rifle(short eye relief) is the intent of their statement. These aren't gun aficionados answering. The DNR is there to "manage" natural resources not ATF shit.

I pistol hunt the shotgun zone. Haven't taken my shotgun in years. I use an encore in 7mm-08. It is impossible to use the pistol scope like a rifle scope. Hell, its hard enough to use it as a pistol scope, the eye relief is not forgiving. You would have to claim to be an absolute moron who knows jack shit about your own guns to claim you didn't know that a rifle scope and pistol scope are different. Then when the warden asks if you have ever even tried to shoot it before and you play dumb he's really gonna jump your ass. At that point, they are gonna dig into anything and everything, you day is about to get worse.

I get the whole "muh freedom" but the state rules the roost here. The kings deer shall only be killed in an acceptable manner according to the king.

Go ahead now call me a FUDD.

I'm not but whatever just pointing out the obvious.

Posted: 11/20/2018 2:03:16 PM EDT

[#21]

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Honestly the shotgun/rifle zone is stupid and unfounded.
Personal opinion, the AR pistol is a range toy. If you want to use it, fine by me. If your jimmies are rustled by the definition of a sight, you are probably wanting to put a regular rifle scope on it. Thus making if only usable as a shoulder fired weapon, (I'm not talking about ATF rulings and such) which is not what they allow. Your intent at that point is to violate the rules. They will slap your pee-pee. I'm sure if you were to ask for clarity on the "rifle sight" statement, they would explain that a purpose built scope for a rifle(short eye relief) is the intent of their statement. These aren't gun aficionados answering. The DNR is there to "manage" natural resources not ATF shit.

I pistol hunt the shotgun zone. Haven't taken my shotgun in years. I use an encore in 7mm-08. It is impossible to use the pistol scope like a rifle scope. Hell, its hard enough to use it as a pistol scope, the eye relief is not forgiving. You would have to claim to be an absolute moron who knows jack shit about your own guns to claim you didn't know that a rifle scope and pistol scope are different. Then when the warden asks if you have ever even tried to shoot it before and you play dumb he's really gonna jump your ass. At that point, they are gonna dig into anything and everything, you day is about to get worse.

I get the whole "muh freedom" but the state rules the roost here. The kings deer shall only be killed in an acceptable manner according to the king.

Go ahead now call me a FUDD.

I'm not but whatever just pointing out the obvious.

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The question isn't whether or not a rifle scope is legal on an AR-15 pistol. The DNR agent in OP's quote used the term "rifle sight."
I have a "rifle sight" MBUS and a red-dot optic on my AR15 pistol. I haven't ever hunted deer with it, but in my interpretation of the rules it would be legal in the slug zone with either device.
I also have an expensive optic on a bolt-gun with great eye relief. It'd be impractical, but I could mount it on an AR pistol and use it without "shouldering" the pistol. Does that make it a pistol sight or a rifle sight? Why not both?
The DNR is making shit up as they go.

Posted: 11/20/2018 2:03:49 PM EDT

[#22]

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The kings deer shall only be killed in an acceptable manner according to the king.

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And things were going so well up to there.

Posted: 11/20/2018 10:59:03 PM EDT

[#23]

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The question isn't whether or not a rifle scope is legal on an AR-15 pistol. The DNR agent in OP's quote used the term "rifle sight."
I have a "rifle sight" MBUS and a red-dot optic on my AR15 pistol. I haven't ever hunted deer with it, but in my interpretation of the rules it would be legal in the slug zone with either device.
I also have an expensive optic on a bolt-gun with great eye relief. It'd be impractical, but I could mount it on an AR pistol and use it without "shouldering" the pistol. Does that make it a pistol sight or a rifle sight? Why not both?
The DNR is making shit up as they go.

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Seriously it isn't rocket surgery
Is it made to be used with your arms extended??? If yes GTG. If both GTG. If no you're fucked

Posted: 11/20/2018 11:03:28 PM EDT

[#24]

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And things were going so well up to there.

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The kings deer shall only be killed in an acceptable manner according to the king.

And things were going so well up to there.

Sorry but that was a bit of a sarcastic crack. I don't like the DNR that much and I sure as hell am no fan of anything that's Minnesota government.

Posted: 11/22/2018 12:22:23 AM EDT

[#25]

The DNR also said that an archery hunter with a permit to carry could not carry their pistol while archery hunting. Eventually some one took the DNR to court and the judge told them that they were wrong. This seems like it could turn in to a similar situation.

Posted: 11/25/2018 9:05:59 PM EDT

[#26]

So, it all boils down to, can the DNR, change the states legal definition of a handgun?

Posted: 11/25/2018 9:32:12 PM EDT

[#27]

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So, it all boils down to, can the DNR, change the states legal definition of a handgun?

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No, but the DNR can restrict what constitutes a handgun legal for use while hunting big game.

Posted: 11/25/2018 10:21:26 PM EDT

[#28]

I understand that.Not that it really matters, but shouldnt these restrictions be posted in the book, you get with your liscense?The state used to give legal handgun calibers, now they dont even do that.I know ignorance excuses no man, but how are people suppose to know this? i can count at least 10 people, i know that use AR pistols for deer hunting, and apperently, we have been illegal?

Posted: 11/26/2018 12:36:18 AM EDT

[#29]

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No, but the DNR can restrict what constitutes a handgun legal for use while hunting big game.

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They haven’t written any official regulation though. Yet.

Posted: 11/26/2018 10:20:48 AM EDT

[#30]

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I understand that.Not that it really matters, but shouldnt these restrictions be posted in the book, you get with your liscense?

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I understand that.Not that it really matters, but shouldnt these restrictions be posted in the book, you get with your liscense?

They absolutely should, and I suspect they will be in the 2019 regulations.

The state used to give legal handgun calibers, now they dont even do that.

I don't recall there ever being a list of legal cartridges, just a minimum required length and caliber, unless you're going back to before my time in hunting.

Posted: 11/26/2018 6:18:29 PM EDT

[#31]

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They absolutely should, and I suspect they will be in the 2019 regulations.

I don't recall there ever being a list of legal cartridges, just a minimum required length and caliber, unless you're going back to before my time in hunting.

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They can try, the argument is whether the statutory definitions under https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2017/cite/624.712#stat.624.712.2, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/97B.031, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/6232.1500/#rule.6232.1500.1 would trump the DNRs ability to formulate regulations which conflict with the plain meanings of those statutes. I don't believe the DNR or any agency has that ability absent new legislation redefining legal hunting handguns.

Posted: 11/26/2018 8:02:29 PM EDT

[#32]

That last link isn't to a statute.

Posted: 11/26/2018 8:18:19 PM EDT

[#33]

I just received a reply to my own question to the DNR.I got almost the same answer.The only difference was, that if a conservation officer sees you shoulder a AR pistol, he will give you a citation.
This sucks so bad, i just built a awesome 6.5 grendel pistol, and my wife has a 300 Blackout.I might as well throw those guns in the dumpster now.I truly hate slug hunting, and was so happy to finally find an accurate, effective option.As of right now, i think i am done with the firearms deer season in MN,which i have done since 1983.From now on, i will only archery hunt.

The thing that truly pisses me off more then anything, is that i am in the 603 CWD zone, and you can kill unlimited deer here.The Dnr, wants the deer killed, and have had hunts in the past, where rifles were allowed.Does this make sense?
Here, let me take an effective accurate deer gun, and lets handicap it to the point, its worthless.What sense does this make?Federal, and state law, considers my 6.5 a handgun,who the hell are you to challenge that DNR?

Posted: 11/26/2018 8:20:08 PM EDT

[#34]

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They absolutely should, and I suspect they will be in the 2019 regulations.

I don't recall there ever being a list of legal cartridges, just a minimum required length and caliber, unless you're going back to before my time in hunting.

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Quoted:
I understand that.Not that it really matters, but shouldnt these restrictions be posted in the book, you get with your liscense?

They absolutely should, and I suspect they will be in the 2019 regulations.

The state used to give legal handgun calibers, now they dont even do that.

I don't recall there ever being a list of legal cartridges, just a minimum required length and caliber, unless you're going back to before my time in hunting.

Yep, i remember it , it was just after pistols were allowed in zone 3.I think it listed 44 mag, 357 mag, 41, mag, and 10mm.There may have been others

Posted: 11/26/2018 8:22:47 PM EDT

[#35]

Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

Posted: 11/26/2018 8:44:14 PM EDT

[#36]

Only government could take something so simple and complicate the shit out of it....

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:10:44 PM EDT

[#37]

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They can try, the argument is whether the statutory definitions under https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2017/cite/624.712#stat.624.712.2, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/97B.031, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/6232.1500/#rule.6232.1500.1 would trump the DNRs ability to formulate regulations which conflict with the plain meanings of those statutes. I don't believe the DNR or any agency has that ability absent new legislation redefining legal hunting handguns.

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They absolutely should, and I suspect they will be in the 2019 regulations.

I don't recall there ever being a list of legal cartridges, just a minimum required length and caliber, unless you're going back to before my time in hunting.

They can try, the argument is whether the statutory definitions under https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2017/cite/624.712#stat.624.712.2, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/97B.031, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/6232.1500/#rule.6232.1500.1 would trump the DNRs ability to formulate regulations which conflict with the plain meanings of those statutes. I don't believe the DNR or any agency has that ability absent new legislation redefining legal hunting handguns.

Considering the regulations for a legal big-game hunting handgun are already more descriptive than anything listed in those statutes (assuming those are the only pertinent statutes), I would assume they can.

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:14:50 PM EDT

[#38]

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Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

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So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:15:34 PM EDT

[#39]

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I just received a reply to my own question to the DNR.I got almost the same answer.The only difference was, that if a conservation officer sees you shoulder a AR pistol, he will give you a citation.
This sucks so bad, i just built a awesome 6.5 grendel pistol, and my wife has a 300 Blackout.I might as well throw those guns in the dumpster now.I truly hate slug hunting, and was so happy to finally find an accurate, effective option.As of right now, i think i am done with the firearms deer season in MN,which i have done since 1983.From now on, i will only archery hunt.

The thing that truly pisses me off more then anything, is that i am in the 603 CWD zone, and you can kill unlimited deer here.The Dnr, wants the deer killed, and have had hunts in the past, where rifles were allowed.Does this make sense?
Here, let me take an effective accurate deer gun, and lets handicap it to the point, its worthless.What sense does this make?Federal, and state law, considers my 6.5 a handgun,who the hell are you to challenge that DNR?

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Frankly, it objectively makes more sense than allowing people to use what is, for all practical purposes, a rifle in a zone in which rifles are otherwise generally prohibited.

I didn't like slug hunting for a long time either, but they've come a long way -- I'd much rather a 12ga saboted slug over .300BLK, personally.

As far as your comment about the DNR wanting deer killed, that's a complicated thing. I often ask the question of whether "special" deer seasons (archery, blackpowder, antlerless only, etc.) are about killing more deer or indulging particular weapon adherents. If it's about killing more deer, then there are some questions that need to be examined.

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:16:25 PM EDT

[#40]

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So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

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Quoted:
Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

They're pretty clearly scrambling to make this up as they go and don't realize what the words they're using actually mean.

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:44:13 PM EDT

[#41]

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They're pretty clearly scrambling to make this up as they go and don't realize what the words they're using actually mean.

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Quoted:
Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

They're pretty clearly scrambling to make this up as they go and don't realize what the words they're using actually mean.

Sounds like if I can shoot my rifle with 1 hand its now a pistol per the DNR!

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:47:57 PM EDT

[#42]

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Quoted:
Sounds like if I can shoot my rifle with 1 hand its now a pistol per the DNR!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

They're pretty clearly scrambling to make this up as they go and don't realize what the words they're using actually mean.

Sounds like if I can shoot my rifle with 1 hand its now a pistol per the DNR!

What if I only have one arm?!?!?!

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:49:06 PM EDT

[#43]

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Quoted:

This sucks so bad, i just built a awesome 6.5 grendel pistol, and my wife has a 300 Blackout.I might as well throw those guns in the dumpster now.

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It’s the first time ever that a QD scope mount makes practical sense. Take your “rifle” scope off and use irons while you hold your pistol with one hand on the hand guard and one on the grip...just extended a little in front of you.

Of course the stupid thing is there’s more chance of a 6.5 Grendel round not going where it’s intended when the DNR insists on janky shooting positions because they can’t accept change.

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:49:41 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
I just received a reply to my own question to the DNR.I got almost the same answer.The only difference was, that if a conservation officer sees you shoulder a AR pistol, he will give you a citation.
This sucks so bad, i just built a awesome 6.5 grendel pistol, and my wife has a 300 Blackout.I might as well throw those guns in the dumpster now.I truly hate slug hunting, and was so happy to finally find an accurate, effective option.As of right now, i think i am done with the firearms deer season in MN,which i have done since 1983.From now on, i will only archery hunt.

The thing that truly pisses me off more then anything, is that i am in the 603 CWD zone, and you can kill unlimited deer here.The Dnr, wants the deer killed, and have had hunts in the past, where rifles were allowed.Does this make sense?
Here, let me take an effective accurate deer gun, and lets handicap it to the point, its worthless.What sense does this make?Federal, and state law, considers my 6.5 a handgun,who the hell are you to challenge that DNR?

View Quote

It's still a handgun, and I'd still use it for deer if I hated my slug gun.
I don't understand why the MNDNR is being stupid about AR pistols. It makes me wonder if anyone in their office has ever held an AR pistol much less tried to "shoulder" one without putting your face on top of the upper receiver.

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:51:48 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
What if I only have one arm?!?!?!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

So if I don't use a perfect isosceles stance with a AR pistol I'm breaking the law?
Does anyone shoot an AR pistol with both hands on the pistol grip? (As opposed to the dominant hand on the grip and the other on the handguard, which would require the dominant elbow to be bent.)

They're pretty clearly scrambling to make this up as they go and don't realize what the words they're using actually mean.

Sounds like if I can shoot my rifle with 1 hand its now a pistol per the DNR!

What if I only have one arm?!?!?!

Divide by zero!!

Posted: 11/26/2018 9:58:26 PM EDT

[#46]

Hate to give the wrong people ideas but it would be more logical for the shotgun/pistol area to designate allowable calibers by name, like only the magnum handgun cartridges, but you could use any rifle, scope, etc. with those calibers. At least then you’re encouraging proper marksmanship techniques.

Shoot your 1000 meter caliber one handed because we’re worried about rifle hunting in this area, what could go wrong, lol.

Posted: 11/26/2018 10:05:02 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
Hate to give the wrong people ideas but it would be more logical for the shotgun/pistol area to designate allowable calibers by name, like only the magnum handgun cartridges, but you could use any rifle, scope, etc. with those calibers. At least then you’re encouraging proper marksmanship techniques.

Shoot your 1000 meter caliber one handed because we’re worried about rifle hunting in this area, what could go wrong, lol.

View Quote

Get out of here with your logic. This is the state government we're talking about here.

Posted: 11/26/2018 10:35:16 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
Frankly, it objectively makes more sense than allowing people to use what is, for all practical purposes, a rifle in a zone in which rifles are otherwise generally prohibited.

I didn't like slug hunting for a long time either, but they've come a long way -- I'd much rather a 12ga saboted slug over .300BLK, personally.

As far as your comment about the DNR wanting deer killed, that's a complicated thing. I often ask the question of whether "special" deer seasons (archery, blackpowder, antlerless only, etc.) are about killing more deer or indulging particular weapon adherents. If it's about killing more deer, then there are some questions that need to be examined.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I just received a reply to my own question to the DNR.I got almost the same answer.The only difference was, that if a conservation officer sees you shoulder a AR pistol, he will give you a citation.
This sucks so bad, i just built a awesome 6.5 grendel pistol, and my wife has a 300 Blackout.I might as well throw those guns in the dumpster now.I truly hate slug hunting, and was so happy to finally find an accurate, effective option.As of right now, i think i am done with the firearms deer season in MN,which i have done since 1983.From now on, i will only archery hunt.

The thing that truly pisses me off more then anything, is that i am in the 603 CWD zone, and you can kill unlimited deer here.The Dnr, wants the deer killed, and have had hunts in the past, where rifles were allowed.Does this make sense?
Here, let me take an effective accurate deer gun, and lets handicap it to the point, its worthless.What sense does this make?Federal, and state law, considers my 6.5 a handgun,who the hell are you to challenge that DNR?

Frankly, it objectively makes more sense than allowing people to use what is, for all practical purposes, a rifle in a zone in which rifles are otherwise generally prohibited.

I didn't like slug hunting for a long time either, but they've come a long way -- I'd much rather a 12ga saboted slug over .300BLK, personally.

As far as your comment about the DNR wanting deer killed, that's a complicated thing. I often ask the question of whether "special" deer seasons (archery, blackpowder, antlerless only, etc.) are about killing more deer or indulging particular weapon adherents. If it's about killing more deer, then there are some questions that need to be examined.

In 603, they absolutely want more deer killed.We have unlimited bonus tags, we have removed the point restriction, we are allowed to hunt, the A, and B zeason, there are special late seasons, and there have even been rifle seasons.Depending on harvest numbers we will probably have another season here again in January.They do all of this to control the population, but now tell you to hunt with one hand tied behind your back.

Posted: 11/27/2018 12:37:31 AM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
Here is the letter i received.

The above regulations have to be followed in order to hunt with a pistol/handgun in the shotgun/handgun zone. Most hunters seem to understand and understand the size restrictions, but some are not understanding the requirements of how to shoot a pistol/handgun in the shotgun zone. Hunters have to realize that if they are going to use an AR 15 pistol in the shotgun zone, they CAN’T shoulder it. An AR 15 pistol that has an arm brace is legal as long as the firearm is not shouldered. If a CO sees a hunter shoulder the firearm in any way, then the hunter could possibly get a citation. You also can’t have a rifle scope on the AR because a rifle scope has to be held close to the eye. Having a scope close to your eye means that the firearm has to be shouldered in order to be fired and this is illegal in the shotgun zone. You can have a scope, but it would have to be a pistol/handgun scope and the firearm would have to be fired with arms fully extended in front of you.

View Quote

Who sent you that, was it Mitch? I sent a query myself (including to Mitch) and have only heard back from one of those that I contacted so far (not Mitch).

I had a very long discussion with my RTO this afternoon as well (I’m a Hunter Safety volunteer as well as an 07 FFL). I get the feeling that the DNR is not happy about these “new” pistols but they can’t do anything about it other than to discourage their use. They are obligated by state law to use the definition of a pistol as it is defined in statute. Thus, as long as it’s a legal pistol per statute, it’s permissible in the shotgun zone. I even clarified the <26” OAL misnomer by crafting a theoretical 96” OAL pistol with a barrel measuring 15.999” and, per state statute, it’s a pistol and thus legal for use. The DNR is simply unhappy about the new technology in pistols, specifically the new braces, many of the COs consider a brace to be a stock. As I mentioned to the RTO, just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it’s a duck. They know this and don’t like it. The RTO that I spoke with, and I’d wager this is true for many of the COs as well, was not aware of the current ATF position on shouldering a brace. He stated that if that is indeed the case, that is out of their hands as well. I also asked about the various comments concerning allowed aiming devices and shooting technique, his reply on those topics was that if it’s not addressed in statue and/or a federal opinion (ATF) then, once again, it’s out of their hands.

Long story short, adhere to MN state statute and federal laws and you’re good to go regardless of the COs personal opinion. This doesn’t mean that you won’t/can’t be cited and/or charged however. Just as not every LEO can know the intricate details about ever law, we can’t expect this from our COs either. Personally, I carry documentation with me in the woods when I’m hunting with my 6.5 Grendel pistols, it may not make a difference but having documention certainly won’t hurt my case either.

Personally, as long as the current laws remain unchanged, I will continue to hunt with my little Grendel’s. BTW, I also hunt zone 603.

Posted: 11/27/2018 11:30:10 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:

major snip

Personally, I carry documentation with me in the woods when I'm hunting with my 6.5 Grendel pistols, it may not make a difference but having documention certainly won't hurt my case either.

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What documentation do you carry?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Legal hunting handgun? (Page 1 of 2)

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