Ok here's the drill. I live south of Quantico but work way up near Leesburg so I'm driving around 60 miles one-way to work...mostly back roads.

On an average day I pass or am passed by at least a dozen king-cab pickup trucks or utility trucks loaded up with hispanic looking hombres - all of whom have that tough as nails, out-doors weathered look to them. I suppose most are landscapers and construction crews headed to gainful employment like the rest of us. I also see small groups of such men wandering on the medians or walking along the roads to or from jobs. Probably at least 50 or so men per day total. Otherwise I hardly ever see pedestrians.

On average my county probably loses 50% of it's population by day (we're all in the city or thereabouts), becoming mostly women and children.

I read the police reports - mostly larceny, a couple of robberies. But always "shots fired".

In the neighborhood there are some graffiti and occasionally I'll see some unusal activity but nothing overtly sinister. But still I wonder... on any given day how many gang members, specifically MS13 do you figure there are on 'active duty' in the NOVA area?

I've definately taken this into consideration in my GHB and preps - specifically in ammount of ammo hauled along for the ride. But in the event of a SHTF national disaster could these guys outnumber the police?

Thanks for any insights or info.

MS-13 runs everywhere. Mainly along the RT1 corridor, but theres an active population in the Sterling/Ashburn/Leesburg area. Unless you are walking around alone at night, dont worry about it. Most of the "hombres" are your run of the mill working class folks. You are more likely to get shot by some road raging asshole than a MS13 member.

MS-13 is pretty prevalent in ALL of NoVa.

In my neighboorhood we also have SSL (South Side Locos)

They tangle on a regular basis...chop each other up with machetes and stuff.....

Quoted: They tangle on a regular basis...chop each other up with machetes and stuff.....

better them chopping each other up than messing with any of us

MS-13 is certainly in NOVA, though from what I hear in the news the problems seem to be mostly in the Alexandria/Annandale areas.

We do have quite a few folks that appear to be from south of the border here in western Fairfax County, but they seem to simply be trying to make a living just like the rest of us.

Until recently around here, you virtually never saw pedestrians walking in non-residential areas since everyone had a car.  Nowadays that’s common.

Also, nowadys there are lots of folks riding around on bicycles – to include in the middle of the night.  Last winter, I saw bicyclists riding around at 2 in the morning with temperatures in the teens!!

And invariably they ride around in dark clothes and have no reflectors on their bikes.  I’m very much afraid that one of these days I’m going to have to pry one of them out of the grill of my Jeep!  

Quoted: MS-13 runs everywhere. Mainly along the RT1 corridor, but theres an active population in the Sterling/Ashburn/Leesburg area. Unless you are walking around alone at night, dont worry about it. Most of the "hombres" are your run of the mill working class folks. You are more likely to get shot by some road raging asshole than a MS13 member.

where in Ashburn, I've been here 10 years now,I have yet to see a real gang member, we have lots of spoiled kids who will try to intimidate you, but specifically in Ashburn, I haven't seen any real gangbangers yet.  I run late at night almost every night and have never seen anyone that I felt threatened by, the worst I've had is high school kids throwing eggs at me

Quoted: We do have quite a few folks that appear to be from south of the border here in western Fairfax County, but they seem to simply be trying to make a living just like the rest of us.

Like the rest of us?

Most of the rest of us are legal residents of the Commonwealth.  Most of the 'South of the Border' crew aren't like us ... they are illegal aliens.

I think MS-13 is a bit more prevailant than most of these post give credit for. I lived in NoVA for 7 years, moved to Richmond 3 years ago, and I have worked with gang members as a counselor in the past. They are all over the place. Most recently, they have really been working their way into Richmond. The big surprise is that they are not only recruiting Latinos. Sounds wierd but it is happening.

Quoted: Quoted: MS-13 runs everywhere. Mainly along the RT1 corridor, but theres an active population in the Sterling/Ashburn/Leesburg area. Unless you are walking around alone at night, dont worry about it. Most of the "hombres" are your run of the mill working class folks. You are more likely to get shot by some road raging asshole than a MS13 member. where in Ashburn, I've been here 10 years now,I have yet to see a real gang member, we have lots of spoiled kids who will try to intimidate you, but specifically in Ashburn, I haven't seen any real gangbangers yet.  I run late at night almost every night and have never seen anyone that I felt threatened by, the worst I've had is high school kids throwing eggs at me

Talk to the local LCSO folks and they will tell you. There are pockets of em. They arent too active around there, but there are pockets of em.

Quoted: Quoted: We do have quite a few folks that appear to be from south of the border here in western Fairfax County, but they seem to simply be trying to make a living just like the rest of us. Like the rest of us? Most of the rest of us are legal residents of the Commonwealth.  Most of the 'South of the Border' crew aren't like us ... they are illegal aliens.

who are trying to make a living and support their family, like the rest of us.

I can persoanlly vouche for northside Richmond having a thriving latino community. The landscape outfit that serves my office complex is 110 percent, all of the stocky sun-burnt variety.

There have been nearby incidents. Just up the road, a major latino prosititution ring was busted up at the Londontown apartments, which has reportedly been pretty much taken over by them. Closer by, a buddy's car was stolen from right outside my office window (he left the keys in the trunk latch, the dumb@ss). It was later recovered from the parking lot of another nearby latino-dominated appartment complex, apparently "cooling off" and with all its numerous contents thankfully undisturbed. Probably nobody can prove it, but we suspect it was spotted by one of the landscape crew. It hadn't sat with the keys sticking out for very long before it disappeared.

Now I make a concerted effort to not pigeonhole anything on an arbitrary basis, and that includes people. I've seen how that very easy "solution" can lead to some really just-plain-wrong conclusions. Anyone who wants to work hard, raise a family, happily grow old, etc., should have the chance to do so whatever their background.

I also know though, that there are those from many different backgrounds who would willingly play The Wolf given the slightest chance. We have here in Richmond recently experienced a pair of horrific home-invasion style burglaries that entailed multiple savage murders. Thankfully those bastards appear to have been caught, and we all await justice to be ultimately served.

In the meantime, both I and my wife remain in ready access to an array of means to defend ourselves both at home and away, and when both together and apart. It's condition yellow, all the time, and in all places.

Around here (Leesburg area), they pretty much only clash with other Latino gangs.  I really do not see them. I do occasionally see MS-13 graffiti. I was born and raised on the Southside of Chicago, so any supposed "gang" activity around here makes me laugh. These so-called gangs have nothing on Jeff Fort and the Blackstone Rangers/El Rukns of the 70's & 80's. Those guys were REAL gangsters...no shit about that!

Mostly what you see is a bunch of bored suburban kids who watch too much MTV/BET/etc. They dress in baggy 'hip-hop' esque clothing and that makes folks think of gangs and such. Like typical teenage boys, they strut around and try to look badass to impress the girls; I just look and laugh.

As to the MS-13 types...unless you look like a total wuss dweeb (ie, an easy mark) they wont bother you. They sure as hell don't bother me.

Oh shoot, I'm doomed.

J/k I'm over 6' and 200lbs. and typically have the bomber jacket on with about 70 rounds of JHP close at hand. Plus I speak Espanol and have actually been to El Salvador, Mexico, etc. and normally do strike up conversations with 'the help' in their native tongue.

But my kids and wife aren't big, mean looking and well armed. Hence, the concern. If SHTF any organized, armed group of men will be a problem what with police stretched thin. My wonder is how many guys who work by day run with or are blood related to the gangbangers at night or 'off duty'?

If you live under the radar of the law to begin with and society takes a nose dive such that construction jobs and cash becomes scarce... ready built teams of hombres who "know guys who know some guys with guns" become my first fear whereas the common criminals are just annoyances.

Quoted: ......my kids and wife aren't .....well armed

Need to flesh out the family arsenal!

My wife has the hands of a 5th grader, but there's handguns and an EBR for each of us, plus I've even got her checking out the 12 gage in case of pit-bull and/or zombie attacks!

We have a group of them living next door.  I don't have a problem with them as I scare the living crap out of them with the vehicles and the big guns I tote in and out.  They think I'm insane and they don't mess with me out of fear of extermination.

However, there is a definite problem with MS-13 here in this area.  Sterling and Herndon are bad and the simple fact is, it'll continue to get worse until people just stop tolorating it.

Mike

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We do have quite a few folks that appear to be from south of the border here in western Fairfax County, but they seem to simply be trying to make a living just like the rest of us. Like the rest of us? Most of the rest of us are legal residents of the Commonwealth.  Most of the 'South of the Border' crew aren't like us ... they are illegal aliens. who are trying to make a living and support their family, like the rest of us.

Immigration is the responsibility of the Federal Government and as we see on a daily basis the Fed is a no show, which leaves states to deal with issues of employment and social services.  States have NO jurisdiction over immigration.

Hispanics live in fear of deportation and imprisonment should they come in contact with the police.  Recent immigrants (legal or illegal) are not aware of the law and are taken advantage of by those that use misinformation and fear to get their money.  Shady lawyers, social workers and gangs thrive in this environment.

Gangs use this fear and isolation to their advantage by using the same scare tactics on these people that the police do - do as I say or we will tear your family apart.  My experience and exposure to the Hispanic community leads me to believe that they are as, or more so, patriotic and Christian as any other group of Americans and they (as long as they are here or obtain citizenship) deserve to be treated fairly under the law.

Every time people talk about cracking down on immigration on a local/state level, it just drives a bigger wedge between Hispanic communities and law enforcement by allowing gangs to use it as recruitment fodder.  Anytime law enforcement puts together a “gang taskforce” Hispanics know that the thugs rarely get arrested and that innocent families will be deported or jailed.  If a contentious illegal talks to police about gang activity it is very likely that they or a family member will be hurt.  Law enforcement has no way to protect those that speak up.

White people are rarely the victims of gang violence.  Gangs prey on their own kind.

Want to complain about immigration?  Talk to the Fed!

Asian gangs (THANG) are much more prevalent in this area than are Hispanic gangs.  They just don't leave graffiti to scare the sheeple.  The 5-n-O crew, Simple City, and other DC gangs are still thriving even though DC Metro and the Fed’s have specifically targeted them.  And these people actually speak English.  No way will law enforcement every get a handle on Asian or Hispanic gangs if they don’t understand the language or culture.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We do have quite a few folks that appear to be from south of the border here in western Fairfax County, but they seem to simply be trying to make a living just like the rest of us. Like the rest of us? Most of the rest of us are legal residents of the Commonwealth.  Most of the 'South of the Border' crew aren't like us ... they are illegal aliens. who are trying to make a living and support their family, like the rest of us.

I'll endeavor to fix it for you ...

who are in the United States unlawfully, having illegally crossed the border trying to make a living by being illegally employed by uncrupulous, criminal individuals (legal residents and otherwise) 'because it don't hurt no one,' and generally without payment of legitmate societal costs -- like unemployment insurance, income taxes, and FICA -- and support their family by sending as much of their earnings to their native land, where the funds contribute to the foreign country's economy at the expense of the US economy, like the rest of us.

[ScoobyDooVoice]Hhhrrrunnnhh???[\ScoobyDooVoice] . . . I say again, illegal aliens aren't like most of the rest of us.

Their presence in this country is a slap in the face to every legal immigrant, who has invested a great deal of time, money, and other resources to lawfully reside in this great Nation.  Legal immigrants are in the United States, in a manner that our Legislature viewed as being in the Nation's best interests.  The negative impact to the United States of illegal immigration is on the same order of magnitude as illegal usage of drugs.  For some reason drug laws are enforced, and immigration laws are not.  Change the laws if they're bothersome.  If law-breaking is tolerable, that's fine as well ... as long as it's consistent and across the board.

Why should John Q. Public's ownership of a fully automatic SIG 552 (to pick one of many illegal weapons) that is not used to commit crimes be handled any differently than the presence of Juan Q. Publico in this country.  In both cases, a federal law is being violated with no readily apparent negative consequences ...

The presence of illegal aliens in this country bleeds resources from our Nation into the coffers and economies of foreign countries.  In the same way that many leeches or ticks sucking resources from its host, can have fatal consequences to an animal, widespread illegal immigration endangers our very society.

Why do you think Vincente Fox wants Mexican citizens to illegally enter the United States?  I'll give you a hint ... check out your neighbors who get into financial trouble trying to keep up with Joneses.  Mexico can't live within their own means.  Rather than borrow money or use credit cards to fund the lifestyle they can't afford, they take the money from the US economy.  The United States gets no marker or IOU, the money just disappears from our economy.  And goes into the Mexican economy.  Some Libs like to use supply-side economics (in just this one case), whining that the money comes back into this country in the form of purchases.  Yeah, right.  Check out the balance of trade figures.

Legal immigrants come to this country to establish roots, join (to varying degrees) the middle-of-the-road American society, and participate in the American economy with 'the rest of us.'  Illegal aliens spend as little of their earnings as possible in this country, sending as much money to their true homeland as possible.  If you believe that the happens with no detriment to the United States, I'll just agree to disagree with you.

If you'd like to read some applicable information, check out this site.

No disrespect intended.  But it is frustrating when people try to tell me that apples are, in fact, oranges.  They aren't.

I'm really not very interested in the whole legal/illegal thing, only to know how many of the illegals/legals are in gangs that are ideally suited to make life post SHTF a nightmare.

I mean, the rest of us will have a steep learning curve to carve out a secure locale, meet neighbors for the first time, select a workable team or squad for mutual self-defense, get to know/co-ordinate with other such groups, etc... all while READY made groups of young, mostly single men with some group experience with breakins and robberies exist from the get go.

So on day 2, we're already at a disadvantage despite having great firearms and individual training in the annihilation of static paper targets. Plus, we're defending women and children etc. while they have the initiative of action.

So I turn to ar15 for informed data on the numbers, training, coordination and MO of gangs like MS13.

I have nothing against hispanics or immigrants of any stripe, culture or language. But for example, it was news to me that ASIAN gangs exist in the DC area. I guess I ought to have assumed so but it just didn't occur to me.

Quoted: I'm really not very interested in the whole legal/illegal thing, only to know how many of the illegals/legals are in gangs that are ideally suited to make life post SHTF a nightmare.

Please accept my apologies for what seemed to be thread drift.  I thought it was fairly well-known that talk of MS-13 seems to be inextricably linked to illegal aliens, as summarized by the Washington Times here.  If you google the two terms, there's lots of other information that might be meaningful to your original question.

With respect to your observation about asian gangs, googling terms like triads, tongs, and "asian gangs" with the term "illegal alliens" will provide some interesting reading as well.

At the risk of overstating the obvious, the gangs are generally an outgrowth of illegal immigration.  Their preferred prey is the illegal alien with like heritage, because their behaviour (as prey) is well understood by the gang-bangers, and they are less likely to complain to Yanqui /Roundeye LEO.  As you point out, when predators' traditional prey supply is disrupted somehow, others become targets.

Quoted: Quoted: They tangle on a regular basis...chop each other up with machetes and stuff..... better them chopping each other up than messing with any of us

That theory is all well and good until you run into one who is going through "initiation"....they have to commit soem crime to get in the gang...and it's usually NOT against a feloow gang member.

Quoted: I'm really not very interested in the whole legal/illegal thing, only to know how many of the illegals/legals are in gangs that are ideally suited to make life post SHTF a nightmare. I mean, the rest of us will have a steep learning curve to carve out a secure locale, meet neighbors for the first time, select a workable team or squad for mutual self-defense, get to know/co-ordinate with other such groups, etc... all while READY made groups of young, mostly single men with some group experience with breakins and robberies exist from the get go

Speak for yourself.

IF you haven't already planned for this it's your own fault.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They tangle on a regular basis...chop each other up with machetes and stuff..... better them chopping each other up than messing with any of us That theory is all well and good until you run into one who is going through "initiation"....they have to commit soem crime to get in the gang...and it's usually NOT against a feloow gang member.

true that...just hope that i can be aware of my surroundings as best i can when im out and about

Yes. You're right. I should have made the distinction that I AM speaking only for myself. I know many of you other VA guys have shooting buddies, ex-.mil neighbors you go hunting with, etc. So I don't mean to generalize.

Of course I'm interested in setting up a team of armed neighbors who can act as ad hoc self defence force in times of trouble. But half the problem of setting something like that up is broaching the NEED to set something like that up. Having raw data that shows our county to be home to XXXX number of illegals and XXX number of gangbangers armed to the teeth obviously helps me make a case for mutual defense pacts.

I DO have a group of buddies who are pretty well equipted with stuff...it's just that we live 10-15 miles apart on average, so in a post SHTF world, unless I bug out to their homes, I'll be left with just my street of neighbors to deal with or count on. One or two neighbors are cops - great guys and I know they're packing more than pistols. But again, in SHTF THEY will probably be called up and thus won't be around to guard/patrol our neighborhood.

Ditto on all the Marines. Bad things happen in the district, 'shrum clouds rising to the north... I'd expect all the guys who fly the globe and anchor to be called in for duty.

I'd like to think gangbangers and illegals suddenly without construction jobs and thus lots of time on their hands and cash running short, would stay low profile what with every able-bodied man rushing out of the county to aid the disaster recovery effort. But I doubt it.

Quoted: I'll be left with just my street of neighbors to deal with or count on.

Connecting with neighbors in any kind of proactive fashion is difficult. Most "normal" people are what anyone reading here would call "sheeple". Likewise, everyone reading here are what "normal" people would call "gun nuts".

We had a Hanover County deputy come out for a talk on neighborhood watch. When the discussion got around to personal defense, this good LEO suggested everyone consider getting a carry permit. Instantly came a hue-n-cry from probably over half of the group, who considered such "extremes" to be paranoia, and that they didn't want to "have to live in Fort Knox". This isn't liberal NOVA either mind you, but good ol' right-wing central VA. The well-meaning deputy just shrugged and moved on to other topics.

It's gonna be street-by-street though. There are plenty of current examples from Iraq to draw on to get an idea of how things shuffle out in an environment of general lawlessness. I'd be curious to see what outlook my next-door sheeple have when/if things ever do get ugly.

Thanks for the info.

One practical thing about ad hoc defenses (apart from the whole problem of meeting, greeting, accepting the premise, etc) is the need for visuals to identify friend from foe.... so we're talking uniform use of camo/jacket, bandanas, arm bands, something obvious so we don't shoot each other in the "fog of war".

Thus in most neighborhood scenarios the ad hoc defenders have a bit of a disadvantage over a roving band of already tight knit bandidos who probably dress alike and know what each other look like even from behind or silouette. (sp?)

And naturally, this is America so most neighborhoods are not homogenius as far as race, ethnicity or religion goes. My street alone has black, white, hispanic, mixed, Asian, all but Arab Muslim (as far as I know).

Like I mentioned, the guys I have seen are mostly either Marines, cops, .gov workers or not around a whole lot. Some might be problems judging by their loud music or strange comings and goings at wierd hours - or the odd comings and going of strange vehicles and people at odd hours.... but that's up the street a bit.

In a full blown "lock down, don't go anywhere" situation I think it'd take a couple days to figure out who's who. Which is a shame as the sense of community in modern suburbia is pretty much shot. We're all strangers living among each other, largely oblivious to each other - definately we don't "need" each other and live like it. Works just fine when everything is fine and happy but in disaster or SHTF, we're seriously handicapped.

So any info you can provide from anecdote or personal experience re: gangs, their number, MO, and locale or likely migration direction is "ammo" I need to get the ball rolling towards a beefed up Neighborhood watch/ad hoc defense

If you want to se their grafiti in Falls Church, check out the wall accross from the Fridays on Rt. 7/leesburg pike (next to popeyes) it says:

xSSL3  (and its in gang-style script like their tatoos).

I get the first & last: x=10 + 3 = "13"

The SSL? Maybe San Salvador, the capitol of El Salvador where they originated from?

Some of their older criminals in this gang have training & combat experience from the central american wars; others have seen some bad things on the streets of san Salvador & in their prisons. In latin america, they are into decapitation and amputation by machete.

I've always wondered how far the gangbangers would spread out, what would happen to the major roads(would they come to a standstill from congestion?), would everyone head out of the city to look for food, does this mean that the surrounding countryside would become vulnerable, in what capacity would the national guard become involved, and so on. I know these questions are entirely dependant on the situation. A chem/bio attack on DC would probably cause a lot of people to have to run for the hills, and all at the same time. A coordinated attack on numerous metropolitan areas could cause some real population shifts. As the local economies grind to a halt people will have to go looking for food and water. With the major roadways shut down from congestion, there will be no supplies going into these areas except through airtravel, and that would be extremely limited, especially if servicing a number of areas. After a couple days without food, people get violent. That's a fact.

My concern is for my sister who lives in Bethesda MD. I often wonder how the hell I would be able to get her out in the event of SHTF. Out where I live on this little mountain ridge, we all know each other and hunt together, and even all have radio base stations on the same frequency. Everyone has a black rifle or ten, and we shoot a lot together. We could be self sufficient for some time. I just would like to have a plan to get my family out here. I really wonder how bad things would have to get for bad guys to make it out my way.  Probably pretty freakin' bad.

Quoted: My concern is for my sister who lives in Bethesda MD. I often wonder how the hell I would be able to get her out in the event of SHTF. Out where ......Everyone has a black rifle or ten, and we shoot a lot together. We could be self sufficient for some time. I just would like to have a plan to get my family out here.

Same boat here. Both my sisters are still in NOVA where we all grew up. I've been the last 15 years in the comparitively sticks a ways west of Richmond, and feel relatively confident in being able to hold out for at least awhile. Can't see how the girls can still stand it all up there, but I guess it's grown up gradually around them so they don't see it all how I do when I go back to visit. And they are so utterly naive about anything to do with this thread! I honestly can't say how I'd handle their situation if something were to happen.

Best bet for something like that is to set a rally point in like WV or something for both of you. Sucks that she is on her own getting out of MD but you wouldnt help anything going through a contaminated area. Water travel would be an option too asuming that there isnt an attack my an organized govt. That would probably be a better choice depending on wind direction anyway. If there was an attack with a persistant nerve agent the chances of getting some in the wind are higher. Also if it were biological the chances of people getting out of the city with it is greater. Water would allow you to prevent random infected people from getting near you.

Quoted: If you want to se their grafiti in Falls Church, check out the wall accross from the Fridays on Rt. 7/leesburg pike (next to popeyes) it says: xSSL3  (and its in gang-style script like their tatoos). I get the first & last: x=10 + 3 = "13" The SSL? Maybe San Salvador, the capitol of El Salvador where they originated from? Some of their older criminals in this gang have training & combat experience from the central american wars; others have seen some bad things on the streets of san Salvador & in their prisons. In latin america, they are into decapitation and amputation by machete.

Graffitti is a definite sign. It showed up on a hotel being constructed near me (1 1/2 hours north of dc on 95) about 2 years ago. Local law enforcement was made aware of it, but no notice was given to the sheeple. I've seen maps showing crime concentrations and maps of areas of ms-13 influence. the only difference is several are labeled for types of crimes, and one shows were ms-13 members have been found. Otherwise they are identical.

MS-13 is huge in south america. Jobs and money are not. Most men in salvador have 3 choices, #1 join the military and retire to gang life, #2 join a gang,#3 or bug out to the US. The biggest danger for illegals coming from the south is being caught on route to the US by MS-13. Most are robbed or machette'd, and the women are likely to be gang raped. Remember that the next time to see a hispanic woman.

These guys are not "gang-banger-wanna-bees", most are ex-military(a likely corrupt military, and the worst gang of all). They are into extortion, protection, smuggling humans and drugs. Yesterday its been reported (again) they may be targeting The US border patrol.

I worked with about half a dozen salvadors for about a year. They were good guys. They had all the legal documents, they loved american culture and beer. They wanted digital cable and honda accords. They were taking classes to speak better english. They would sing along to AC/DC on the radio. One told he he f'in WALKED from salvador!They just want a better life, like all of our ancestors did when they came here.

Quoted: Best bet for something like that is to set a rally point in like WV or something for both of you. Sucks that she is on her own getting out of MD but you wouldnt help anything going through a contaminated area. Water travel would be an option too asuming that there isnt an attack my an organized govt. That would probably be a better choice depending on wind direction anyway. If there was an attack with a persistant nerve agent the chances of getting some in the wind are higher. Also if it were biological the chances of people getting out of the city with it is greater. Water would allow you to prevent random infected people from getting near you.

The water route is a unique idea that I had never considered. Thanks. My neighbor has a nice big boat that he might be persuaded to let me use to go get my sister.

Sorry for the thread hijack. My wife has had a number of dealings with MS-13. She worked in the ER in Langly park in MD for several years. On weekends in particular she saw a whole lot of MS-13 bangers that would end up in the ER. I remember one night I was talking to her on the phone while she was working in triage. She said she had to go and would call me back. She later told me that she had to stop a gang knife fight from breaking out in the lobby. The friends of each gang member that had been hurt in a big fight all showed up at the same hospital, and had decided that they would resume the hostilities in the ER waiting room in front of kids and all sorts of people. The cops had to come in with the K-9 to settle things down. That sort of thing was almost regular.

Kind of ironic isn't it? Gang bangers flaunting laws of our nation.... only to take advantage of the law and order that allows hospitals to be built. Savages.

Savage not in that they can't think or have free will like the rest of us. Savage in being untamed, uncivilized. Unconstrained. Men for whom the sense of honor - of being responsible for some standard higher than their appetites or passions of the moment or immediate gratification - is missing or very small.

You can reason with some people. Not with savages. With them you simply must avoid contact or win through superior application of force.

It's not an ethnic or racial thing that makes a man a savage; it's a cultural/ideological factor or lack of moral/mental formation.

Without the values that inspire the virtues which make Western Civilization possible, human beings are left with their vices which help explain the rest of the world's tyrannies, desperation, grinding poverty and violence of the strong over the weak.  

I'm alarmed by MS13 and other groups not because of their ethnic origin (I've been to El Salvador, I speak the language, I love the people and worked among them. They're fantastic in many ways and that country has enourmous potential (and enourmous handicaps what with active volcanos, earthquakes, fragile infrastructure and an economy that was precariously built on Coffee being a cash crop). Ethnicity/race isn't the reason El Salvador or Mexico or Guatemala or Russia or South Africa are a shambles. Values and the 'human capital' of virtues are. Culture is the main factor.

It's not because Switzerland is an armed camp that they have low crime rates and attract banks. If we armed pagan African tribes to the same degree and the banks of the world set their headquarters there, that country would STILL be a hell hole. It's because the Swiss had a solid family and civic culture that they came to value their independence and work together to arm themselves for its defense. Because their country was relatively peaceful banks sought them out....

Similarly, America wasn't great because every frontiers man had a musket and Colt.  It was our culture that made us great and the tools - guns and cannons and railroads etc... were just tools to allow us to advance quicker and easier.

When I think "Barbarian" I'm not thinking a hairy guy with long hair, beard, and unable to read and write (the classic definition, a non-Greek). I'm thinking all the savages of the 20th century from the Fascists to the Commies to the Nazis, to the anarchists and gang bangers... men who are technically proficient in many fields, clever, smart even, but who have zero respect for others, zero or little sense of moral responsibility towards God and man.

I respect them as men - they're not fools or stupid, they know how to drive, shoot, operate machinery, work in teams (such as they are). They're dangerous. In a SHTF environment these organized groups - be they anarchists, Socialist/commies, Islamoterrorists, or MS13 types would have an initial "tactical" advantage over your typical American individual; the inherent superiority of an integrated team of men vs. a single man.

If they worked together to take advantage of a decrease in law enforcement in a post-SHTF world, they could do extensive damage.

Like the Visi-goths, they could take over the system they don't know how to build in the first place.

This being the case, we - as a nation - must do a better job (or return to actively doing the job) of Americanizing immigrants and our own people.... to convert them to the values and virtues that make America possible.

That's step one. PREVENTION.

But obviously a lot of water has passed under the bridge and untold millions of immigrants (legal and not) and native citizens of the USA don't believe and don't live the values that make us great. Nor are all of them capable of being reasoned with. So step two is "Back up plan": Defense.

I'm not worried about Muslim terrorists invading. I am worried about uncivilized Americans running amok in a post SHTF world instead of working together to rebuild civilization. Because you can only give what you have; if you don't know, value and have the strength of will to live virtues that build civilization.... you won't be able to teach and live those virtues. Men without civilization revert to the common default mode: tyranny and repression.

So... arm yourselves with values and ARs. We'll need both.

Quoted: Kind of ironic isn't it? Gang bangers flaunting laws of our nation.... only to take advantage of the law and order that allows hospitals to be built. Savages. Savage not in that they can't think or have free will like the rest of us. Savage in being untamed, uncivilized. Unconstrained. Men for whom the sense of honor - of being responsible for some standard higher than their appetites or passions of the moment or immediate gratification - is missing or very small. You can reason with some people. Not with savages. With them you simply must avoid contact or win through superior application of force. It's not an ethnic or racial thing that makes a man a savage; it's a cultural/ideological factor or lack of moral/mental formation. Without the values that inspire the virtues which make Western Civilization possible, human beings are left with their vices which help explain the rest of the world's tyrannies, desperation, grinding poverty and violence of the strong over the weak.   I'm alarmed by MS13 and other groups not because of their ethnic origin (I've been to El Salvador, I speak the language, I love the people and worked among them. They're fantastic in many ways and that country has enourmous potential (and enourmous handicaps what with active volcanos, earthquakes, fragile infrastructure and an economy that was precariously built on Coffee being a cash crop). Ethnicity/race isn't the reason El Salvador or Mexico or Guatemala or Russia or South Africa are a shambles. Values and the 'human capital' of virtues are. Culture is the main factor. It's not because Switzerland is an armed camp that they have low crime rates and attract banks. If we armed pagan African tribes to the same degree and the banks of the world set their headquarters there, that country would STILL be a hell hole. It's because the Swiss had a solid family and civic culture that they came to value their independence and work together to arm themselves for its defense. Because their country was relatively peaceful banks sought them out.... Similarly, America wasn't great because every frontiers man had a musket and Colt.  It was our culture that made us great and the tools - guns and cannons and railroads etc... were just tools to allow us to advance quicker and easier. When I think "Barbarian" I'm not thinking a hairy guy with long hair, beard, and unable to read and write (the classic definition, a non-Greek). I'm thinking all the savages of the 20th century from the Fascists to the Commies to the Nazis, to the anarchists and gang bangers... men who are technically proficient in many fields, clever, smart even, but who have zero respect for others, zero or little sense of moral responsibility towards God and man. I respect them as men - they're not fools or stupid, they know how to drive, shoot, operate machinery, work in teams (such as they are). They're dangerous. In a SHTF environment these organized groups - be they anarchists, Socialist/commies, Islamoterrorists, or MS13 types would have an initial "tactical" advantage over your typical American individual; the inherent superiority of an integrated team of men vs. a single man. If they worked together to take advantage of a decrease in law enforcement in a post-SHTF world, they could do extensive damage. Like the Visi-goths, they could take over the system they don't know how to build in the first place. This being the case, we - as a nation - must do a better job (or return to actively doing the job) of Americanizing immigrants and our own people.... to convert them to the values and virtues that make America possible. That's step one. PREVENTION. But obviously a lot of water has passed under the bridge and untold millions of immigrants (legal and not) and native citizens of the USA don't believe and don't live the values that make us great. Nor are all of them capable of being reasoned with. So step two is "Back up plan": Defense. I'm not worried about Muslim terrorists invading. I am worried about uncivilized Americans running amok in a post SHTF world instead of working together to rebuild civilization. Because you can only give what you have; if you don't know, value and have the strength of will to live virtues that build civilization.... you won't be able to teach and live those virtues. Men without civilization revert to the common default mode: tyranny and repression. So... arm yourselves with values and ARs. We'll need both.

Perhaps the best post ever on Ar15.com.

Well said!

Quoted: Kind of ironic isn't it? Gang bangers flaunting laws of our nation.... only to take advantage of the law and order that allows hospitals to be built. Savages. Savage not in that they can't think or have free will like the rest of us. Savage in being untamed, uncivilized. Unconstrained. Men for whom the sense of honor - of being responsible for some standard higher than their appetites or passions of the moment or immediate gratification - is missing or very small. You can reason with some people. Not with savages. With them you simply must avoid contact or win through superior application of force. It's not an ethnic or racial thing that makes a man a savage; it's a cultural/ideological factor or lack of moral/mental formation. Without the values that inspire the virtues which make Western Civilization possible, human beings are left with their vices which help explain the rest of the world's tyrannies, desperation, grinding poverty and violence of the strong over the weak.   I'm alarmed by MS13 and other groups not because of their ethnic origin (I've been to El Salvador, I speak the language, I love the people and worked among them. They're fantastic in many ways and that country has enourmous potential (and enourmous handicaps what with active volcanos, earthquakes, fragile infrastructure and an economy that was precariously built on Coffee being a cash crop). Ethnicity/race isn't the reason El Salvador or Mexico or Guatemala or Russia or South Africa are a shambles.............................................................................

I'm fairly new to these forums as my post count clearly shows, but I know and am known by many people on here in the IDPA shooting community. I usually take all the info in and don't remark but this post has moved me and I would like to thank JusAdBellum for sharing his very educated, obviously passionate, and very accurate understanding of the situation.

Bravo sir.

Coming from Southern California I am very used to hispanics being everywhere, and am somewhat surprised at the amount in NOVA but cheap labor goes where the jobs are. The guys you see standing on the corner or on the bikes 99/100 times won't bother you, they are just trying to make a couple bucks to send home and are trying to keep as low a profile as possible. Most of them are illegial and are very wary of the authorities ala INS. As for MS-13, I haven't had any experience with them but have heard they are quite nasty. Just another reason to open/conceal carry among many I guess.

A Med, thanks for the compliment. I try.

Let me reiterate something.... I'm not paranoid enough to suspect every landscaper, construction crew, and king-cab pickup of being filled with MS13 gangbangers.

But some most likely are ('cause you gotta fill the time in between hits and working with the boys for cash seems a pretty lucrative way to pass the time). Even the IRA guys had regular jobs - in fact to stay alive they HAD TO HAVE cover.

Also, working in the booming 'burbs, allows them opportunities to case targets....

But the I real point I want to make is something taken from one of the posts someone made about being on a Caribbean island after a CAT 4 hurricane.

He mentioned that all the non-native Islanders who were there on work visas or illegally, working in construction, became roving bands of gangbangers after the break down of law and order. They ran around with machetes or guns looting, killing, raping... pretty much doing whatever they wanted until law and order was re-established a couple weeks later.

Now I'm no racist or "ethnicist"; I'm an equal opportunity guy: no matter what their color or race, I see a gang of machete and Glock .40 waving tough guys coming my way - I'm going to defend my family.... I think all "minorities" ought to never forget that "White people" fought two world wars against one another last century and spent a good portion of the preceeding Millenium fighting each other besides! It's not color or race per se... it's THREAT that gets responded to.

So just as the Island got overrun by its immigrant labor force, I look at NOVA and see a very similar demographic pattern and it makes perfect sense to me.

If a man was in a foreign land, living illegally, for cash, largely hand to mouth, depending on my buddies for everything and there was some disaster that a) meant no more work b) no more food and services and c) no prospect for government handouts or ready means to get them from the community.... it wouldn't take long for to inherent advantage of being a tight knit group of young men to kick in and allow them to basically take what they needed AND WANTED to survive and survive in comfort or at least in "excitement".

Plus with a pre-positioned gang network that's already into rape, murder, and pillage to plug into for 'mutual self defense' (since they're going to avoid the authorities anyway right?) is it nonsense to suppose it's at least likely that MS13 would swell in size after a major domestic disaster shuts down work sites all over NOVA?

I think it's entirely possible that such young men with little to lose would start taking things into their own hands.

Which means If the "event" happened while I'm at work, some 60 miles from home, and I wasnt' able to drive home (EMP or bridges out, or whatever) I'm faced with the prospect of walking home at least some of the way through the backroads where alot of these guys hang out.

And once I get home, in a county filled with construction sites...I'm going to have to deal with them and our home ground, native American 'gangs' of young men with little inhibition, morals, and civic sense of responsibility.

And I can only lug so much ammo with me to work or back... so I'm definately interested in as much "intel" on this as possible.

Quoted: So just as the Island got overrun by its immigrant labor force, I look at NOVA and see a very similar demographic pattern and it makes perfect sense to me.

Take it from an expatriate/refugee, the NOVA-DC area is an island.

JusAdBellum, thank you for your well developed insight. Your posts were worth reading, and re-reading again. Great stuff!
The topic of a swelling illegal gang during time of catastrophe is one of the major lessons I took away from the Hurricane Katrina incident. My guess is that a group with greater organization and initiative than the loosely knit groups that terrorized NO could pose a very serious threat to a region. MS 13 seems like a rather well organized group with a military style hierarchy, and the ability to project operations over great distances.
In the event of a disaster in the DC NVA region, like a terrorist attack, a degradation of the local governmental infrastructure could be all that a group like that would need to attract a significant following, and to be able to operate with virtual impunity. I don't think it would be unreasonable to imagine them migrating to nearby regions if there is any kind of food or water shortage. During that migration they would have a sizable number of members, and would be less restrained by legal issues.

I'm guessing that a big attack on the DC NVA region could bring a lot of trouble to neighboring areas.
I'm going to be ordering more ammo Monday.

Quoted: MS-13 runs everywhere.

There was an article in the Virginian Pilot yesterday about them being in Virginia Beach...
home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=98416&ran=112667

Members of this gang aren't bullet-proof, are they?

I'll have to ask my LEO friends....but I'm not in the habit of asking detailed questions of my .gov friends, just a habit of not wanting to know what they know but probably aren't at liberty to tell just anyone...

So I'll ask the forum.

What is the normal MO of MS13 murders.... drive bys with pistols or automatics? Machete attacks only or are they routinely picked up with AK clones?

The question is half curiosity but half serious: if they have ALOT of experience with pistols and machetes in a post SHTF world one can assume they'll use the default mode: close in, massed assault of fixed positions or 3 to 1 advantage on pedestrian traffic.

But in a post SHTF world, most if not all of us (and my neighbors) will have their RIFLES in their hands or slung at the ready and will keep their pistols holstered. Being able to hit something beyond snow ball range may be all the equalizer we "unorganized militiamen" need at least in the steep learning curve from isolated individuals to effective ad hoc neighborhood watch and defense teams.

What colors are typically worn for ID? That too might come in handy to know... should we prepare to wear Red, White and Blue or white or yellow or Hunter Orange arm bands?

I know that in a true SHTF environment half the town will be empty as the Marines will be called to base or disaster area, others will be at 'undisclosed locations' and others might have just taken off at 3am and not come back.

So getting to know the remaining neighbors - who can you trust? Alot of worries. It'd help if I knew what the worst probable gang would be like.

Course I could just ASSUME they'll all have ARs taken from absent homeowners or dead LEOs, will be dressed in tactical gear, color black, with blue and white arm or head bands, and coming in in group of 6 to 12 (3 - 4 hopped up Honda four doors with the oversize air foils and bling bling).

Which means I'll need two 33 rounders and will need to decide whether to engage at 100 yards before they get close enough to bring their rifles to bear....

Hmmmmm. More I think on it, the better a looooooooooooooooow profile (no lights, curtains drawn) looks.

Quoted: Course I could just ASSUME they'll all have ARs taken from absent homeowners or dead LEOs, will be dressed in tactical gear, color black, with blue and white arm or head bands, and coming in in group of 6 to 12 (3 - 4 hopped up Honda four doors with the oversize air foils and bling bling). Which means I'll need two 33 rounders and will need to decide whether to engage at 100 yards before they get close enough to bring their rifles to bear....

Have been wondering if I need to stockpile some steel-penetrator along with regular stuff....?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Course I could just ASSUME they'll all have ARs taken from absent homeowners or dead LEOs, will be dressed in tactical gear, color black, with blue and white arm or head bands, and coming in in group of 6 to 12 (3 - 4 hopped up Honda four doors with the oversize air foils and bling bling). Which means I'll need two 33 rounders and will need to decide whether to engage at 100 yards before they get close enough to bring their rifles to bear.... Have been wondering if I need to stockpile some steel-penetrator along with regular stuff....? No, you need a good .308 battle rifle.

I hear ya bro. Maybe soon.

But .308 for Mexicans? Isn't that a little overkill?.....Oh wait, I see now it's for the Honda. OK, that makes sense then.

There's some good stuff here and there's some blatantly racist bull shit too.  Anyone who adopts the theory that a majority of illegal immigrants are one disaster away from becoming murderers and rapists because they obviously lack any morals, or work ethic since they've already committed a crime needs to step back and think.  First I'll say we've all committed a crime or are willing to under certain circumstnaces.  Hell most of us speed on a daily basis it violates the laws of this state, but I wouldn't say it makes us rapists/murderers in waiting.  Second think about what an illegal immigrant has gone through to get here to this nation.  Not all of them simply walked across the border and didn't go back.  Some have invested not only time but also money and heartache to get here so that they can send back the majority of there money to family back home.  I don't think you can say that a man willing to do that will immediately lose his sense of values and ethics simply because he's been put out of work, in fact there's a good chance that he's better at losing his sole source of income and accepting those repurcussions than we are.  I also noticed people saying these were great laws that our great government came up with and everybody should follow them.  If you believe that ask yourself if you had any extra evil features on a rifle during the AWB because it was a stupid law and I'm not really hurting anybody by having a collapsible stock, or maybe you had a lower that was purchased prior to the ban but not yet a complete rifle and decided to say it was.  Or for that matter if you ignore any other law because it's stupid and your not hurting anybody.  If your going to say the immigration laws are great because our government says they are then that means any laws our government comes up with are great.  If you haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant then you may want to think about doing so learning a little something about what can make an honest man become a criminal and turn his back on his country and family simply for the chance to live in this country illegaly might open your eyes.  We sit here and say this is the greatest country in the world and everyone should want to live here and then bash a man for risking everything he has to come here.  We then justify ourselves by saying well it's ok as long as there "legal"  then there ok guys.  Well that's just blanket prejudice.  I say if a man wants to work hard and make a better life for himself and his family then let him be whether he's a citizen, legal, or illegal.  In fact I can think of a whole bunch of citizens I'd gladly trade 1 for 1 for some good illegal immigrants.  Now there's an idea let's deport our criminal citizens and allow an immigrant a shot at being here.  Before I get flamed I'm not saying we should knock down the walls and just let the world flow in.  I'm not even saying that we should look the other way towards illegal immigrants if there caught they should be subject to the laws of this nation.  What I am saying is there seems to be a general train of thought in this thread that illegal aliens are either criminals or are willing to become one, and I say there no more predisposed to it than you are.

Quoted: There's some good stuff here and there's some blatantly racist bull shit too.  Anyone who adopts the theory that a majority of illegal immigrants are one disaster away from becoming murderers and rapists because they obviously lack any morals, or work ethic since they've already committed a crime needs to step back and think.  First I'll say we've all committed a crime or are willing to under certain circumstnaces.  Hell most of us speed on a daily basis it violates the laws of this state, but I wouldn't say it makes us rapists/murderers in waiting.  Second think about what an illegal immigrant has gone through to get here to this nation.  Not all of them simply walked across the border and didn't go back.  Some have invested not only time but also money and heartache to get here so that they can send back the majority of there money to family back home.  I don't think you can say that a man willing to do that will immediately lose his sense of values and ethics simply because he's been put out of work, in fact there's a good chance that he's better at losing his sole source of income and accepting those repurcussions than we are.  I also noticed people saying these were great laws that our great government came up with and everybody should follow them.  If you believe that ask yourself if you had any extra evil features on a rifle during the AWB because it was a stupid law and I'm not really hurting anybody by having a collapsible stock, or maybe you had a lower that was purchased prior to the ban but not yet a complete rifle and decided to say it was.  Or for that matter if you ignore any other law because it's stupid and your not hurting anybody.  If your going to say the immigration laws are great because our government says they are then that means any laws our government comes up with are great.  If you haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant then you may want to think about doing so learning a little something about what can make an honest man become a criminal and turn his back on his country and family simply for the chance to live in this country illegaly might open your eyes.  We sit here and say this is the greatest country in the world and everyone should want to live here and then bash a man for risking everything he has to come here.  We then justify ourselves by saying well it's ok as long as there "legal"  then there ok guys.  Well that's just blanket prejudice.  I say if a man wants to work hard and make a better life for himself and his family then let him be whether he's a citizen, legal, or illegal.  In fact I can think of a whole bunch of citizens I'd gladly trade 1 for 1 for some good illegal immigrants.  Now there's an idea let's deport our criminal citizens and allow an immigrant a shot at being here.  Before I get flamed I'm not saying we should knock down the walls and just let the world flow in.  I'm not even saying that we should look the other way towards illegal immigrants if there caught they should be subject to the laws of this nation.  What I am saying is there seems to be a general train of thought in this thread that illegal aliens are either criminals or are willing to become one, and I say there no more predisposed to it than you are.

Man I am so sick of illegal alien apologists like you. They come here ILLEGALLY, all too often having been deported once or twice and are back. They come here, assume fake identities, use OTHER people's Social Security #'s, do not pay taxes and the majority of the money goes back into Mexico and not back into our economy like it should. The majority of them don't speak english either; nor do they make an effort to do so. Do you have to deal with non-English speaking people's problems everyday?? Because if you don't, then you should. It is TERRIBLY hard and takes so much time. Not to mention the resources they drain on our hospitals because we HAVE to take care of them, none of them have the money or benefits to take care of it, so you and I have to foot their bill. Are you forgetting the illegal drug trade illegals are part of, and on and on!

If you want them all, why don't you take care of them.

Oh and please, don't compare our CONSTITUTIONAL rights that our representatives have blatantly violated,  to someone who blatantly violates our Constitution.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3430815

Anyone who adopts the theory that a majority of illegal immigrants are one disaster away from becoming murderers and rapists because they obviously lack any morals, or work ethic since they've already committed a crime needs to step back and think.

Would you care to give an example of someone saying this? We are talking about MS13, not Illegals in general. I don't feel bad painting gang members as people that do not follow laws. MS13 has a very much deserved reputation as being a criminal and terrorist organization.

First I'll say we've all committed a crime or are willing to under certain circumstnaces. Hell most of us speed on a daily basis it violates the laws of this state, but I wouldn't say it makes us rapists/murderers in waiting.

By that logic, we should just let murderers go free, because we've all commited a crime at some time...Right? There is a very large criminal element that comes from Mexico. Obviously all are not murderers/rapists, whatever. They are however in this country illegally, and I will not just say, "Oh, that's O.K., I've committed a crime before too, so go on ahead and continue living here illegally.".

Second think about what an illegal immigrant has gone through to get here to this nation. Not all of them simply walked across the border and didn't go back. Some have invested not only time but also money and heartache to get here so that they can send back the majority of there money to family back home. I don't think you can say that a man willing to do that will immediately lose his sense of values and ethics simply because he's been put out of work, in fact there's a good chance that he's better at losing his sole source of income and accepting those repurcussions than we are

O.K., by thios logic then, we should consider how much effort and heartache a bank robber goes through to rob a bank to give money to his kids. I take umbrage with the idea that a poor person would deal better with losing possessions. The person with money had to work pretty hard to get where they were, and I fail to see why they would lose that work ethic when faced by a challenge. In fact, I would argue that they would do much better, and be more productive as they have made much more of an investment in our society, and it means more to them. Take the Hurricane Katrina looters. They were poor before the storm and very used to it. After the storm they took the place apart and even hindered rebuilding efforts because they felt no obligation to the society they lived in.
Again, we are talking about MS 13, not illegals in general.

I also noticed people saying these were great laws that our great government came up with and everybody should follow them. If you believe that ask yourself if you had any extra evil features on a rifle during the AWB because it was a stupid law and I'm not really hurting anybody by having a collapsible stock, or maybe you had a lower that was purchased prior to the ban but not yet a complete rifle and decided to say it was. Or for that matter if you ignore any other law because it's stupid and your not hurting anybody. If your going to say the immigration laws are great because our government says they are then that means any laws our government comes up with are great.

What you are saying here is that if you disagree with one law, you disagree with all of them? Where the hell are you getting this? If I think one law is great, I therefore must agree with every other law? This is patently ridiculous, and takes away a lot of the credibility in your argument. The logic here is lacking. I would consider re-thinking this part of your argument.

. If you haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant then you may want to think about doing so learning a little something about what can make an honest man become a criminal and turn his back on his country and family simply for the chance to live in this country illegaly might open your eyes. We sit here and say this is the greatest country in the world and everyone should want to live here and then bash a man for risking everything he has to come here. We then justify ourselves by saying well it's ok as long as there "legal" then there ok guys. Well that's just blanket prejudice.

We are not bashing a man for coming here and risking everything. Please give an example where this was done. I can't find one. I think you might be talking about a different thread.
And by the way, YES it is OK for them to come here legally. What is wrong with wanting them to immigrate legally? If you are saying that people are prejudice toward illegals, and not toward legal immigrants, I would say that yes, people tend to judge those that abide by the law less critically. I fail to see the racial connection here that you seem to be implying.

I say if a man wants to work hard and make a better life for himself and his family then let him be whether he's a citizen, legal, or illegal.

Absolutely, and he can do it in a way that follows the laws of whatever country he lives in. If he doesn't want to follow the laws in this country , he can do all that stuff somewhere else.

In fact I can think of a whole bunch of citizens I'd gladly trade 1 for 1 for some good illegal immigrants. Now there's an idea let's deport our criminal citizens and allow an immigrant a shot at being here.

Who's the one to decide who gets to stay, you? I'm all for the immigrant coming over, just follow the rules. Get here legally and it's all good. Immigrants are the backbone of this nation.

Before I get flamed I'm not saying we should knock down the walls and just let the world flow in. I'm not even saying that we should look the other way towards illegal immigrants if there caught they should be subject to the laws of this nation.

Funny, I think that's exactly what you are saying. We've all commited crimes right? Why not just look the other way while illegals exploit our country? It's interesting to hear someone say something, and then turn around and say they meant the opposite. Kind of like John Kerry saying that he's not anti-gun.

. What I am saying is there seems to be a general train of thought in this thread that illegal aliens are either criminals or are willing to become one, and I say there no more predisposed to it than you are.

One more time for the cheap seats, we are talking about MS 13. They are already breaking laws and causing mayhem. I'm tired of the race card getting played every time an issue like this comes up. I don't care what race someone is, if they want to be a productive member of this society, as opposed to a dtriment, they have to become part of the country. That means a social security card, being able to speak English, not having to go on welfare/medicaide, the second they get here, being held accountable for breaking other laws/hospital bills....the list goes on and on. It has absolutely ZERO to do with race. Take your racebaiting elsewhere please. If you want to have a reasonable discussion I'm all for it. Try reading the thread, and providing examples for the accusations you make next time. It makes discussion more coherent and relavent.

MS-13 links on our poor Latin kids who just want a better life.

www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA011206.08A.border-threatmemo.1772a150.html

fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/012006/01242006/162568

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/

www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3386933

www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm


www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/01/60minutes/main1090941.shtml

Quoted: If you want to se their grafiti in Falls Church, check out the wall accross from the Fridays on Rt. 7/leesburg pike (next to popeyes) it says: xSSL3  (and its in gang-style script like their tatoos). I get the first & last: x=10 + 3 = "13" The SSL? Maybe San Salvador, the capitol of El Salvador where they originated from? Some of their older criminals in this gang have training & combat experience from the central american wars; others have seen some bad things on the streets of san Salvador & in their prisons. In latin america, they are into decapitation and amputation by machete.

Actually the grafitti  xSSL3 stands for a hit put out on their rival gang named the "South Side Locos" the  X in front of the SSL or a line through the gangs "tag" means that either a hit is out on them or they have been "erased"

MS13 and SSL have been going at it from the beginning even though SSL is a smaller gang in terms of member numbers.

There was a MS13 incident in my hometown several weeks ago.  The C'ville guys probably heard about it.  At the Ruckersville Sheetz on 29 a "hispanic" individual was seen sneeking into the back seat of a woman's car.  Someone who was vigilant enough saw the act,  notified the woman and called the police.  Turns out this was an MS13 gang initiation.where the guy had to rape a "white woman".

I will not say that all hispanics are bad.  My mill employees about 12-15 men from Mexico.  They are all either legal citizens or are on work visas.  They work 10X harder than most of the lazy white trash at the mill.  However, living in a rural area I come accross A LOT of hispanics, many of them are not legal.  I also had one incident were one hispanic tried to feel up my girlfriend in a bar.

This WILL be the issue of the next round of elections.  I am sick and tired of seeing our country's border being over runned by thieves, drug runners, and other law breakers.  I am not saying this as a person who is at all racist.  I am saying this as a citizen who is seeing other countries easily invade our land, live off the tax payer, choke the healthcare system, and adopt a lifestyle of violence. They fail to assimulate into our culture.  Back during the late 1800's and early 1900's the country saw a massive influx of immigrants from Europe.  These immagrants WANTED to be american and they worked hard and since there was no welfare system to live off of they didn't cause the tax payer any harm.  They also did it LEGALLY.  
A country that can not secure it's borders is flirting with disaster.