I have a very simple question. With all of the training that goes on, and get's planned. Why don't more of you shoot IPSC/USPSA? After all for me it seems to increase my skills in shooting accurately under the gun while engaging targets. You practice drawing, mag changes. (yes you can do emergency reloads and strip the mag) shooting from cover, movement shooting, double taps, engaging targets that are behind hard cover. You even get to engage moving targets.

I think it is a great way to train. While not being ecatly like Sully's way it sure is a lot of fun and you get to meet and shoot with good people.

Hell I feel pretty good today. I got several nice accolades from some county SWAT officers on my ability to engage targets on the move. I also got the nickname of Poncho Villa. Don't ask

There is a shoot or 2 somewhere every weekend  during the summer months. and at least one in the winter months that I know about.

I know I have been beating this into you guys, but is seems like you guys might be missing out on a good opportunity here. I know PX shoots the indoor shoots in the winter. Maybe more of you guys shoot matches and I never hear about it.

[/end ramble]

Let's not forget the shoot at Springbrook Sportsman's Club on October 1st.  We have been having a pretty damn good turn out of AR15.com members.  I look forward to meeting more of you guys there.

I really wanted to make that IPSC shoot on Sunday.  Unfortunately (or fortunately!!!) I stayed at Stans longer than I planned and so I spent Sunday doing the things I was hoping to do on Saturday evening.

The other issue is budget.  With a fixed ammo allocation, quite honestly I would rather be training than competing.  I'm not saying you can't learn at a comp.  Just saying that group training is the priority for me.

I'll make one of the Oconomowoc shoots one of these times.

I've shot at every IDPA shoot in Ripon since July and Hit one of the USPSA shoots in Oshkosh. And I will shoot Ripon again in Oct and hopefully hit the Oshkosh One also.  I look forward to them as I actually can shoot a little more realistically then at my home range and you meet a better class of people at them as well...

Me personally, I think IDPA and USPSA are great opprotunities to practice as long as you understand it's a game and you get out of it exactly what you want to. I don't personally go for the trophy. I want to replicate as close as possible as to how I would handle the problem real world and not worry about impressing the other shooters. Like the man say's, only hits count.......

Quoted: I've shot at every IDPA shoot in Ripon since July and Hit one of the USPSA shoots in Oshkosh. And I will shoot Ripon again in Oct and hopefully hit the Oshkosh One also.  I look forward to them as I actually can shoot a little more realistically then at my home range and you meet a better class of people at them as well... Me personally, I think IDPA and USPSA are great opprotunities to practice as long as you understand it's a game and you get out of it exactly what you want to. I don't personally go for the trophy. I want to replicate as close as possible as to how I would handle the problem real world and not worry about impressing the other shooters. Like the man say's, only hits count.......

While I am compettative to a degree. I have found that I feel better having fun and enjoying shooting the matches when I am not focusing on trying to win. I also don't care what people think of me. I have gotten tired of caring what other people think about me. Cause in the end I am me, and if someone doesn't like it, they can go pound sand.

These matches will NOT turn anyone into an "operator" it is for fun and to train a bit differently.
This is the way I have fun. I honestly cannot see how everyone can afford to go 1, 2, or 3 weekends each month and dump 500-800 rounds per weapon practicing/training. I would like to be able to do it, but I would go broke in the process.  

Quoted: Quoted: I've shot at every IDPA shoot in Ripon since July and Hit one of the USPSA shoots in Oshkosh. And I will shoot Ripon again in Oct and hopefully hit the Oshkosh One also.  I look forward to them as I actually can shoot a little more realistically then at my home range and you meet a better class of people at them as well... Me personally, I think IDPA and USPSA are great opprotunities to practice as long as you understand it's a game and you get out of it exactly what you want to. I don't personally go for the trophy. I want to replicate as close as possible as to how I would handle the problem real world and not worry about impressing the other shooters. Like the man say's, only hits count....... While I am compettative to a degree. I have found that I feel better having fun and enjoying shooting the matches when I am not focusing on trying to win. I also don't care what people think of me. I have gotten tired of caring what other people think about me. Cause in the end I am me, and if someone doesn't like it, they can go pound sand. These matches will NOT turn anyone into an "operator" it is for fun and to train a bit differently. This is the way I have fun. I honestly cannot see how everyone can afford to go 1, 2, or 3 weekends each month and dump 500-800 rounds per weapon practicing/training. I would like to be able to do it, but I would go broke in the process.

Oh yeah brother, you certainly are what you are!

Quoted: I have a very simple question. With all of the training that goes on, and get's planned. Why don't more of you shoot IPSC/USPSA? After all for me it seems to increase my skills in shooting accurately under the gun while engaging targets. You practice drawing, mag changes. (yes you can do emergency reloads and strip the mag) shooting from cover, movement shooting, double taps, engaging targets that are behind hard cover. You even get to engage moving targets. I think it is a great way to train. While not being ecatly like Sully's way it sure is a lot of fun and you get to meet and shoot with good people. Hell I feel pretty good today. I got several nice accolades from some county SWAT officers on my ability to engage targets on the move. I also got the nickname of Poncho Villa. Don't ask There is a shoot or 2 somewhere every weekend  during the summer months. and at least one in the winter months that I know about. I know I have been beating this into you guys, but is seems like you guys might be missing out on a good opportunity here. I know PX shoots the indoor shoots in the winter. Maybe more of you guys shoot matches and I never hear about it. [/end ramble]

]

I might be interested in becoming involved. Are there links to schedules somewhere you can hook us up to?

http://www.wisconsinshooters.com/

Quoted: I've shot at every IDPA shoot in Ripon since July and Hit one of the USPSA shoots in Oshkosh. And I will shoot Ripon again in Oct and hopefully hit the Oshkosh One also.  I look forward to them as I actually can shoot a little more realistically then at my home range and you meet a better class of people at them as well... Me personally, I think IDPA and USPSA are great opprotunities to practice as long as you understand it's a game and you get out of it exactly what you want to. I don't personally go for the trophy. I want to replicate as close as possible as to how I would handle the problem real world and not worry about impressing the other shooters. Like the man say's, only hits count.......

That's an important point. It is a game and NOT combat shooting. Very different worlds. That said I think it would be a great time More trigger time is always a good thing.

Schult's and SEWSA in Racine, are proabbly the only ones I'll go to.  Unfortunately, I haven't been to Schutls'a ( shame on me).  Anyhow, IPSC is a game, but a fun one at that.  All the tact. pistol crap I know came from trial and error doing IPSC shoots, and observation.  Plus, as PM can attest, I'm not a static shooter.

I competed on-and-off for 2 years in Oconomowoc about 10 years ago now (has it really been that long?)  

I don't do it any more for a couple of reasons.  The main reason is the length of the drive to get there combined with work hours that aren't favorable.

The other reason is the gaming aspect.  I don't think it's worth the headache to drive the distance and time involved for a 100-round practice session that I can do locally.  The only thing my local practice is missing is the competitive air.  But if I use good tactics, good cover, a realistic holster, and take the time to get good hits, I'm not going to be competitive in IPSC anyway  .  So I'm not missing anything by not going to the meets (except the company, which is too bad--that would be nice).

Quoted: That's an important point. It is a game and NOT combat shooting. Very different worlds. That said I think it would be a great time More trigger time is always a good thing.

Maybe not in the truest sense of the term. IPSC was at one time called combat shooting.

I am not trying to beat down anyone for not going.  I figured I would share what I enjoy. I don't really get the opportunity to shoot like PX and PM do very often. It is sort of lonely to try and practice some of the shooting skills without a person to do it with. Especially without ones as skilled as PX and PM or some of the rest of you. I cannot make some of BC's shoots. Lord knows I have tried. Stuff comes up.

Each to their own.

BTW Bad Dale, bad.

I think IPSC & IDPA can be a valuable experience for newer shooters.  Learning to compete under pressure and safely handle your firearm.  Having said that I feel people shouldn't consider this competition experience practice.  

Note I am primarily interested in the martial aspects of shooting.  Many shooters are not.  They are interested in the competition and fellowship from these sports.  As a result, for me, IPSC & IDPA can develop some bad habbits.  Further some of the rules don't allow me to "compete the way I carry".  

I started shooting IPSC in 1981 and at the time it was quite a practical experience.  Times have changed and the focus of the organization has changed.  This is neither good nor bad, simply history.

I urge those whose interest is in carrying and using a firearm for defensive purposes to seek qualified training.  Most importantly, spend some time with your training partners in real practical practice.  Building and repeating those good shooting habbits.  I am lucky to have a training partner with whom I have worked with for over twenty-five years.  We have gone to Gunsite together several times and continue to training together at least once per month.

Enjoy IPSC & IDPA, but don't forget to practice!

Jeff

Quoted: I started shooting IPSC in 1981 and at the time it was quite a practical experience.  Times have changed and the focus of the organization has changed.  This is neither good nor bad, simply history.

Expound please.

I believe IPSC developed in Wisconsin around 1979.  There were three primary clubs: WPPL (Mt. Horeb) Hartland Sportsmans Club and the Sheboygan R&PC.  Matches were designed and run by folks whose primary interest was "practical shooting".   Often these matches were "surprise" events.  The course was concealed from the shooter until they stepped to the line.  There were no "walk throughs" or "sight pictures".  They were urged to "solve the problem" using available resources.  There weren't mandatory reloads.  There was a real "power factor" for ammunition.  Several times we built an entire shoot house on the range and built the match around clearing that house.  Shooters were a given a shooting score AND graded on tactics.  Those matches didn't really consider speed as a significant factor.  Although subjective, shooters appreciated feedback on their individual use of cover etc.  The courses of fire were mostly short and simple.  Stages of fire requiring the expenditure of 50 rounds didn't occur because they don't happen in real life.   If you need 50 rounds of pistol ammunition to solve a real problem either you have truly "messed up" or are having a really bad day.   We used targets that looked like people.  We had targets (not steel) that had concealed "body armor".  These forced the shooter to understand that 2 quick shots COM with a pistol doesn't always do the job.  We didn't consider if a course of fire was "fair" to everyone or descriminated against some equipment that some shooter was using.

By in large shooters used realistic practical equipment.  Either regular police duty belts or concealed holsters all suitable for everyday use.  Pistols were pretty much stock and useable for everyday carry.  There were no restrictions on magazine capacity.  We had a good number of LEO and military shooters.  They used the equipment they were issued.  

Todays IPSC is a fun shooting sport.  It is designed to be an exciting athletic speciality sport.  It is a great spectator and TV event.  However the relationship between IPSC competition and pistol fighting is something like talking a walk around the block and calling it training for running a marathon.  Some of the same muscles are used but its really a whole different thing.

I want emphasize.  I am not trying to start a fight with anyone who enjoys IPSC and finds value in the competition.  Its just not for me anymore.

Jeff

Well, if we can get some guys to shoot it out with each other for a trophy, sign me up....AS A SPECTATOR!

I'm also calling dibs on the closed circuit TV rights.




 

Hook us up with Simunitions or the like and I'll shoot it out with any of y'all any time.  

You got the perfect place for doing something like that to BC. If you schedual it, I will come to the class. Hmm I better start saving the pennies now though.

Bulletcatchr,

I've read about Yeager's training company, and as you say they're a respected outfit .  For their force-on-force training, what kind of equipment are they using?  Airsoft?  It's not Simunitions FX (or else they're violating a buttload of Simunition's training guidelines and cleaning those library books will take waayyyy too long).

The markers were UTM-converted Glock 17's.

Thanks, I hadn't heard of UTM.  I checked their website and there's no discussion of velocity or pain penalty--just energy, which is under 2 ft-lbs.  How much do they hurt?

Man UTM rounds use an aluminum bullet, I don't care what weight it is thts got to open up some potential problems. Simunitions are one thing, but an aluminum round......

Quoted: It's alittle more to me,than getting the right hardware and a bunch of guys together and having at  it. This is what is on my radar.I have decided to the point of taking out another loan to pay for this. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=13&t=392270 I've been tracking TRI and FoF training in particular at Lightfighter tactical's forum,every now and then I google around  and I track Yeager's instructors on other sites too.This latest AAR and things in general have persuaded me that along with the basics,FoF is where my training dollars have to go...It's the the quality of the corrections,the quality of the instructors and thier experience in teaching FoF that I am willing to pay for. www.tacticalresponse.com/training/schedule.php October 22 - 23  Tactical Pistol  Lebanon, IL   November 12 - 13  Force on Force Scenarios  Indianapolis, IN   bulletcatchR

Now that is interesting.  Very interesting.

To answer the original question: I have nothing against competions like IPSC or IDPA.  The main drawbacks have already been mentioned (along with the pluses).  I'll probably do some in the future, but I'm not focused on it right now.  

I guess the basic idea of 'racing the clock' seems impractical to me beyond a very simple stage.  I mean: If I move to cover, and no one else is in danger (family, friends, bystanders), who cares if I spend 1 second or 3 seconds behind cover?  The 'race the clock' format seems to disreguard too many practical aspects of surviving/winning a gunfight.

Still it is a good way to practice many skills under pressure.  I just worry that it may encourage bad habits as well.

Sully,

Is the pain penalty for UTM similar to FX?  Or more severe?  Less severe?

Quoted: DAMN!!! October 22nd 5-gun. I challenge anybody,that is alumni,to come on up to MN with me,I'll pay the gas.

What are you gonna do? Make us ride in the back of your truck, like cattle?

I want more info. Starting a new thread.