I bought an Silencerco Omega from this guy through AZS last year.  I never even so much as met the dude but at the time he was active on social media, on AZS and other people gave him the thumbs up on AZS, including with NFA stuff.

I have a receipt dated 02/06/2017. He said he was going to include the serial number with the receipt, I didn't think to look at the time.  When I went to look for it much later, it wasn't on the receipt.

I mailed off the forms last year and then a couple months ago I figured I should call the ATF and see what the hell is taking so long even though I've never felt the need to call before this stamp.  I dug out the forms and realized that I'm an idiot and made a copy of the CLEO form that doesn't have the serial number on it.  I call Neil at Greystone on 04/27 and tell him I need the serial number.  He says he'll get it and call me back.  Doesn't happen.  I text him on 04/30 and 05/01 with absolutely no response even though we've texted at this number in the past.  I speak with him again on 05/16 and he says he'll text it to me later.  Doesn't happen.

I was talking to someone else about it a couple weeks ago and they told me to double check and make sure I didn't get a refund from the ATF.  I figured I'd have seen it but I just happened to think about it so I went back through my statements and I got a refund on 04/06/18.

There was another person, maybe 2, on AZS who said they had forms in with him currently but now that it's gone I can't get in touch with them.  Greystone's facebook page is now completely gone also...

I just tried to call Neil and no answer, although the voicemail is still his.  Maybe he'll call me back and this will all get ironed out but if past communication is any indication I highly doubt it.  I'm just done at this point.  Either he gets me my money back or he Form 3's the suppressor to someone I trust.  I wouldn't trust that to happen at this point though.

According to FFL EZ check his FFL doesn't expire til 07/01/2019 but me getting an unexplained refund almost a year later makes no sense because I sure as hell didn't cancel it.

So, I Googled Greystone firearms trying to dig up dirt on this piece of trash and found your post. I bought an Omega from him on Gunbroker in the beginning of May. A month went by and I hadn't heard from my shop so I tried to contact "Neil". Nothing.  8 other people on Gunbroker had the same thing happen to them. I called and explained that I was going to contact the Glendale PD as well as the ATF about his little scam. He texted he an hour later and said he had refunded my money. I paid through Sqaureup and apparently a refund can take up to two weeks. Still waiting on my money. I wish I was closer to AZ. I'd go have a talk with this bozo.

So, I Googled Greystone firearms trying to dig up dirt on this piece of trash and found your post. I bought an Omega from him on Gunbroker in the beginning of May. A month went by and I hadn't heard from my shop so I tried to contact "Neil". Nothing.  8 other people on Gunbroker had the same thing happen to them. I called and explained that I was going to contact the Glendale PD as well as the ATF about his little scam. He texted he an hour later and said he had refunded my money. I paid through Sqaureup and apparently a refund can take up to two weeks. Still waiting on my money. I wish I was closer to AZ. I'd go have a talk with this bozo.

So, I Googled Greystone firearms trying to dig up dirt on this piece of trash and found your post. I bought an Omega from him on Gunbroker in the beginning of May. A month went by and I hadn't heard from my shop so I tried to contact "Neil". Nothing.  8 other people on Gunbroker had the same thing happen to them. I called and explained that I was going to contact the Glendale PD as well as the ATF about his little scam. He texted he an hour later and said he had refunded my money. I paid through Sqaureup and apparently a refund can take up to two weeks. Still waiting on my money. I wish I was closer to AZ. I'd go have a talk with this bozo.

If you did not get a refund get in touch with the AZ Attorney  Generals office and see what they have to say about it .

Hmmmm.... Over near 51st And Thunderbird huh?  If it wasn't a residential address, I'd stop by and see what the hell is up.

Anyone have his last name?

Vrooman.

I have last known residential address, it’s in Glendale too.

Just don’t want to post it up and be accused of AROCKing.

IM'd the OP with it.

Good luck man.

Wow.  I do have to wonder if he wasn't selling my omega.  I hadn't spoken to him in a year or so and I wonder if he thought I just forgot about it and wanted to resell it.  I mean my stamp gets canceled in April and then in May he is selling another omega...

@VACOP

You mind PM'ing me what phone number you were contacting him at?  I notice you said he texted you but when I have tried that route he doesn't respond even though he responded to it when we were making the transaction.

I don't think he ever had the products. There were 8 other people on Gunbroker saying the same thing, he was responsive until he got the money. I think he was either hoping the bid would go over his dealer pricing of the items or just rip people off. Either way is odd because his FFL is legit. Also, pretty sure the ATF listed address is residential. It took me explaining that I was going to report him to the proper authorities to get him to respond.

Hey guys, long time lurker here, legacy member of AZS though.

Found this thread when I started digging more, the OP's experience closely mirrors mine.  Here's my time line:

Jan 4 2017 - Onsite purchase of AAC Ti-Rant .45
 - I held the can in my hand and have photos of it
Mar 11 2017 forms mailed
Mar 20 2017 check cashed
Multiple phone calls/texts exchanged for over a year
 - very friendly, chatty, some calls almost an hour long
Approaching March 2018 with no news I asked him about status
 - Response he was seeing 11-14 month turn around times on F4s
 - He advised me to check wait times here instead of NFA Tracker
 - Wait times on here were seeing a lot in the 8 month range
Apr 27 2018 - I called NFA Branch to check status
 - Form 4 DISAPPROVED on Apr 10, 2018
 - Stated reason, no response from dealer to correction letters
Apr 27 2018 - Texted him  immediately following call with their response
 - He called back within minutes
 - Said he'd had this happen before due to NFA using old address to send letters/forms
Apr 30 2018 - Received refund check from NFA branch for disapproved stamp
 - Texted him advising of that refund, he said NOT to cash it because he was working with "Heather" a supervisor to fix the screwed up stamps and everything would be OK.
 - He told me he was working the exact same issue for another customer "Jason"
May 3 2018 - Texted to ask status/update
 - Response "So far looks good, she should be able to fix this one like the previous and the other one they are having issues with alongside yours"
May 8 2018 - 42 minute phone call mostly both of us ranting about NFA lag
May 23 2018 - Text for status
 - No response
May 30 2018 - Phone call, he tells me he's right in the middle of an ATF inspection, will talk later
May 31 2018 - Call again, this time 30 minutes
 - Tells me in depth details of inspection, new inspector, no notice, just showed up
 - He was really stressed out
 - Said he should have more info following week after inspector does out brief
June 11 2018 - Phone call, no answer, left message, no call back
June 13 2018 - Called ATF to check status, still DISAPPROVED as of Apr 10 2018
June 13 2018 - Text ATF status to dealer, no response
June 13 2018 - Called to discuss, no answer, left message, no call back
June 14 2018 - Phone call to dealer, no answer, left message, no call back
June 14 2018 - Text for clarity, check if he's OK, steps forward, what do we do now?  No response

Edit: Fix formatting

The lack of communication is inexcusable. Good luck getting that resolved.

Wow, what the fuck.  Really sucks you're in the same situation but glad there is someone else to prove my case.

This is the exact same thing he told me when I called even though averages were already trending much lower.  I mean I was seeing people get forms back that submitted in Q4 2017.  So frustrating.

If multiple people got rejected, it must be something on his end.  Maybe that triggered the ATF inspection??  (Just spitballing here)
I mean what are the odds we both have correction letters?

I wonder even I even have recourse since I have no check to cash from ATF, it just got refunded to my CC.

You know one thing I hate about the whole ffl licensing thing?

A lot of business licenses/permits that deal with govt type permits have required surety bonding. Bonds as high as $500k sometimes depending where you are. For example a contractors bond for licensed contractors who screw people over there’s something to collect on. Notary bonds for Notaries who do illegal shit or don’t know what they are doing. I myself as a car dealer have to have a $100k bond on file with Arizona DOT at all times my license is valid. You even have to get the damn bond before you apply! So if you get rejected you are SOL on the bond premium you just paid.

Now I’m not for one to have cost to doing business increase. But the cost it isn’t that much because usually the bond is based on credit when it gets to that upper amount (over 25k) because it requires underwriting pretty much like any insurance. I paid $750 a year for my $100,000 bond. Which covers customers if I don’t give them their title/registration/plates/pay their trade in and it  even protects the dealer auctions when you sell a car or buy a car and don’t pay. They go after your bond! That’s the whole point. It’s a “SUREty so that whoever lost money is covered.

How come the damn Atf doesn’t require a bond to be posted? Hell a simple $10,000 bond is peanuts but atleast people would have some sort of recourse against these jackass dealers who steal peoples money and scam.

Sorry I don’t mean to rant. It just seems like it would/should have been a requirement these days. If most states require it for permitting/contracting with them. I don’t see why the atf doesn’t require it. Especially when dealers deal in transfers and take in other peoples paid property. That’s the whole reason most bonds are required. To protect people who have ALREADY paid for certain services etc.

well put my buddy and I down for three cans.  my buddy bought two and had paperwork issues that were going to be resolved and then he ended up with a stamp refund out of the blue from ATF.  Funny thing on mine, I found out in about April that it was approved back in Jan and I just get the run around whenever I get in touch with him.

Figured there were easier ways to scam people out of 3 digit figures than basically writing it all down on paper and then sending it to a heavily armed govt. agency.

I have been super busy lately and the guy didn't really peg me as a thief vs. more of someone who is overwhelmed by the paperwork required.  So I haven't been real aggressive in following up on the can.  Not to mention its too damn hot to shoot outdoors anyway.

Well I guess I will start the clock on him and then follow up with ATF.  Both of us handled our cans in person so they did exist at one point anyway.  I feel bad because I introduced my buddy to him and he potentially got scammed out of twice as much as I did and he didn't get any of the SiCo rebates on his.  At least I got a threaded barrel out of the deal.

You may want to visit this thread:  https://www.arizonashooting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=382

It's fairly new with a dozen or so replies, including some from Greystone himself in the last couple days discussing this very thing.  He's already fixed the issues with the users that posted there.  You will have to register and join the forum there, though.

Maybe you meant that for Quake Guy, not me.  I'm the one who started the AZS thread.

He did reply to the thread, yes.  He has apparently refunded other people money.  So far myself and another local individual have yet to receive a refund from him.  He said he mailed mine out this weekend.  Assuming that actually happened there is no reason the check shouldn't arrive this week.  We'll see.

Just FYI, he did the same thing to me and I contacted the ATF, FBI, Glendale PD, and Arizona Internet Crimes and they are all investigating him. Apparently there are multiple complaints on him and his business for these practices. I would suggest anyone else affected should contact the Glendale PD and lodge their complaint with them. This will assure they update all the other agencies with updated files on their ongoing investigation.

If anyone would like for me to add your info to my open cases, IM me your contact info and I will give that to the authorities for them to add you and possibly contact you.

Talked to Glendale Pd yesterday. They said the address is in Phoenix PD jurisdiction. Talked to PPD they said "it's not a Police matter and I would have to contact the courts." No help at all. Apparently fraud is not a crime in Phoenix. This is why this bozo has ripped off so many people. No one is doing anything about it.

So have you not received the refund yet?

Did you IM fitzumwell? He said he could add your info the cases he already has open.

So I do have an open case with Phoenix PD and I have talked with a local ATF investigator ([email protected]) that is already investigating him. You can also call AZ Internet crimes at (623) 466-1999 and get them involved. I also lodged a complaint with the AZ Attorney General. The ATF investigator said she can't force refunds but is willing to apply some pressure on him to get possible refunds.

I have not received my refund yet, however my bank has credited me the money. I have filed complaints with the Better Business Bureau and the ATF. I will email that agent my info. I really hope someone nails this dirtbag.

I'm in the same situation with this guy.  I'll call pd as well.   Thanks for the info.

@fitzumwell

Can you PM me the info you have for these cases?

Well no response to voicemail or text nearly two weeks ago (I was on vacation all of last week).  I sent PM and email via the AZ shooting links asking to pick up my Omega 9K which was approved last Dec or Jan with serial number ending in 86.

Things finally got wrapped up on my end after lies and delay tactics.

I'd advise anyone that sees this thread to post in the AZS thread that was linked.  It seems to be the only thing that draws him out.

This is all assuming he actually responds to any of your communications but bug him at least once per day for updates or info on what you want.  He has no problem dragging things out on his end, don't give him that chance.

I'm still trying to get a refund,  Neil's back has declined the refund he's sent twice now...

I think he's just going the echeck route to delay things and string you along.    After he paid me he didn't even bother to cancel the first echeck he sent me.  I finally canceled it a few days afterwards.  I'd guess he wasn't worried about double paying me because there is no money in the account to begin with.

When he sent me the instant transfer it wasn't through the Greystone account, it was someone else's name, don't remember who offhand.  Same last name though.  I was told it was his sons account.  He still owes thousands of dollars in refunds and who knows how many people haven't realize they've been scammed yet.  

@Quake_Guy

Did you ever get your can picked up?

I could be wrong but I seem to remember hearing that a dealer can cancel an F4 anytime, even if it's been approved as long as it hasn't been transferred to the individual yet.  Not trying to make you worry needlessly but not being able to get a suppressor picked up for months is strange.  Have you called ATF to verify it was approved and still good?

I spoke to the lady from ATF about 1 and a half weeks ago, I just left her a voice mail to follow up.  I paid with a check so if it was canceled I should have seen a stamp refund.

well got an update from the lady at the ATF, not what I was expecting...

apparently my can was sold and approved for a form twice.   and the other guy picked it up first.  If I had his contact info, maybe we could share it.  I could have it Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays...

WTF, good thing we have a registry.  And according to ATF, its a civil matter.  Huh, I thought selling stuff and not delivering and using a Govt. agency to facilitate fraud was illegal or something...

not just a waste of money, but waste of time submitting all the docs and then waiting for nothing.  really wanted that can for the upcoming good times of non-100 degree weather.

“Civil matter” is code for we don’t think it’s worth our time to investigate. Either they’ve got bigger fish to fry with their limited manpower or they don’t think there’s enough evidence to actually get this into court.

Misdemeanor internet fraud is rampant because it’s extrnely rare you’re going to get multiple police departments in multiple states to coordinate an investigation for a relatively small amount of money.

My attorney filed two lawsuits against Neil Vrooman and Greystone Firearms for about $13,000, after all the fees close to $18,000 (the sales took place last year). I am also in the process of filing a criminal complaint with local PD.
ATF will not get involved regarding a sale unfortunately. I was just informed by our local branch. Everything has to be handled by local PD.
However I was able to get their attention on another matter involving him and the manufacture of firearms. So will see what happens.

thought I would bump this before it falls off...  and the new AZ Shooting site already seems to be dying too...

Yes, I have met with him, and have been in contact with him via text messages, he e-mailed my receipts, and we have had discussions on facebook messenger. He appears to be doing the exact same thing to everyone, including the stalling tactics. Every time I get a response from him it is another BS story and he hasn't followed through in the past few months. He has charged me for NFA Tax Stamps for suppressors that were never registered as confirmed by the ATF. Unfortunately, a few of my friends before me received their products, but I haven't received anything but excuses. I was in contact with the ATF Agent dealing with his case, who is allegedly proceeding with presenting the case to Attorney General.

I got burned as well.

I was told by Glendale PD this is a Phoenix location with a Glendale address. Have you had any luck opening the criminal complaint? If so, what's the case number?

He squared up with me.