I finally got my form 1 build complete after I got my paperwork and to say I am frustrated and disappointed is an understatement. This will be my last form 1 and from here on I will avoid the headaches by getting something I didn't build.

I test fired my can and I can notice absolutely no difference in suppressed and unseppressed, not even the slightest. I fired 6 rounds suppressed and 6 unsuppressed and it sounds the same.

The build is a 1.5" ti tube with Totality industries 60 degree ti cones, bored to .375, mounted on a Griffin Armament flashhider, being fired from a 11.5" barrel chambered in 5.56. There 6 cones.

The stack is as follows:

2" expansion chamber
cone
.625" spacer
cone
.625" spacer
cone
.375" spacer
cone
.375" spacer
cone
.375" spacer
cone

The .375" spacers are rounded up, they are in fact under .375" I just remember by how much. I had asked about going with 5 cones or 6 and I don't know if adding the last cone hurt performance or not. If it did, I am willing to eat crow. I just want to fix the thing at this point.

What are my options to fix this, legally obviously. Can I destroy the last cone and the spacers that are just under .375" and order new spacers and try 5 cones?

Any help would be appreciated.

What type of clipping (turbulence or cross jet inducing features) on the tips of your cones are you using?

Have you tried it on a 16"+ bolt action?  ARs are loud due to port pop and 11.5" SBR is even louder.  Shooting in a reflective environment (hard surfaces nearby) will make it worse.   Have you had a bystander about 20-40 feet away listen to it suppressed?

So this is about a 1.5" X 6" suppressor?

You need to clip!  I ran into the same issue. After clipping, you would not believe the difference.  There’s a wealth of info over on http://form1suppressor.boards.net.  I used the DHC clipping method. Best out there!

Also, with the info over at http://form1suppressor.boards.net and the cans I’ve built , I will never buy another factory can again. My F1’s are quieter than my factory cans.

As others have pointed out, clipping is a huge part of the game. You absolutely must get that gas off the boreline. This can still be done by you.

As to your other question:
You, personally, have no recourse. Your proposed changes would need to be done by a licensed individual/company.

I don't have any form of clipping. I will take a look at the forums. Man, I really should have done a little more homework before I set out on this endeavor.

A dremel and bits or high quality files and a bit of patience is all you need.

If you don't clip the baffles there is a high pressure plug of laminar flowing gas that drafts the bullet all the way to your front cap, where it loudly expands when it hits free space.  Clipping is less important for long, tight bore, high volume, low velocity suppressors, and very important for short, low volume, high velocity applications.

Even a half step clip like Griffin has used will improve the sound over symmetric cones. You can do that with a flat file if you are patient.

Sorry to hear about the bad expierence you've had with your form 1 build. I'm not busting your chops but just about everything you have is not optimized for an 11.5 SBR starting with the bb and everything after it.

Many have documented a flash hider does not aid in suppression and actually increase the laminar flow. A GA brake does help in suppression. The cones you have are not optimized for suppression.what is the wall thickness of the spacers you have, if they are over .035 wall thickness the spacers are consuming valuable can volume.

The spacing you are using will not provide the ability for the clips to disrupt the laminer flow. The bore size is what a lot of folks use but again it is not optimal for suppression. I hate to tell you but with the components you have no matter who works on it will make some improvement but I don't think you would be satisfied.

Most solvent trap parts providers don't provide legimate advice because they don't have the license to test and only repeat something they have read which is Usally not accurate. Follow the advice already given and head over to the other board and read the tutorial I have written. I am a ffl 07/02  and have helped others solve their issues.  You can find me over there if you choose.

Thanks for the input and no worries on busting my chops. The truth is the truth.

My spacers are .040 thick. Hopefully I can get at least some better performance out of it. I'll check out your info and posts.

A 6" 1.5" OD solvent trap can with 6 baffles and a 3/8 bore on a 5.56 SBR is never really gonna be hearing safe with supers.  It would be borderline with a ~.27" bore.  I have a model that is 6.5" and hearing safe on SBRs, but it's 1.55" ID and .275" apertures through 5 very specially designed cone baffles.  I understand the thinking in going for a .30+ cal bore size, but for it to be very effective on an SBR, you need more length and more baffles.  Then there's the port noise issue, which may be a large factor in your problem.  Heavier buffer and an AGB will help with that.

As  F1 builder, you can remove and destroy baffles, but you cannot replace them.  You need to make friends with one of us SOTs.  You can pull them back out and clip or port them, though.  I don't know what your baffles look like, but I generally recommend this type of cut:



That one is for my Furtivus series .30 cal, but I use that cut on most centerfire models.  You do want the cuts on each baffle aligned as well.

A lot of folks and commercial manufactures use the single side clip. With the single clip aligned the physics applied will create a poi shift. If you don't mind the poi shift use the single clip but Imho I think .046 over bullet diameter is too close.

.040"-.060" diametral clearance with largest acceptable caliber is pretty much industry standard.

As for POI shift, there's a lot more in play than clip profile.  The majority of POI shift is the result of changing barrel harmonics, not the aerodynamics within the suppressor.

LOL, here we go again spreading more inaccurate information. Accepting what is industry standard doesn't mean it's the best.

I have proven after tens of thousands or rounds testing that poi shift does not have to be acceptable.  Most of the poi shift is due to the clip style used. The 2nd factor is a heavy can or pencil barrel. I have developed a clip style and cone style that with a std barrel will actually tighten up groups and have 0- to minimal if any poi shift. This has been confirmed by many customers.

LOL at someone who's profile photo as an 07/02 is undrilled solvent trap cones.  Do you actually make anything yourself, or are you just another parts assembler?

It's industry standard for a reason.  .050" +/- .010" over bullet diameter gives optimal suppression without disrupting the projectile.

Well, now we know how deep the bravo sierra is.  Suppressors enhance accuracy dynamically, not mechanically; they help people shoot better by reducing blast & recoil.  A rifle that is mechanically capable of a .5 MOA group is not gonna suddenly shoot .4 MOA with your suppressors, mine or anyone else's except by pure chance with the altering of barrel harmonics (ergo it won't be a consistent thing from one rifle to the next).  But a 1.5 MOA shooter might become a 1.1 MOA shooter when he relaxes and stops flinching.

Most of us use the assymetric single radiused clip because it works.  You don't have to take it on my word; just look at some of the best precision rifle suppressors out there like the TBAC Ultra series.

The only thing I can suggest is head over to form1suppressor.boards.net and perhaps you might learn about a better mousetrap by reading the tutorial and my two threads in the vendor section.

I can guarantee you my baffle design and clip design will outperform most if not all commercial cans. You choice to follow the herd or take the unbveaten path.

You do know that a TBAC Ultra combines symmetrical and asymmetrical clips, don't you? By your own logic, there must be something to it.

Also, I'm not sure where you get
from. I own several commercial silencers, from top shelf Mfr's, and .06 would be on the lower extreme of clearance. With the myriad of today's Mfr's, who do you consider the majority for "industry standard"?

Tighter bores have been proven to increase bullet instability.
Even my own designs have proven negligible sound difference once the bore is opened. However, POI shift decreased and precision increased. Sound mitigation was increased with a revised clip design.

Why would I want to waste my time looking at one freeze plug or solvent trap can after another?

Oh, I have some very novel features in my designs.  Some have symmetric clips, some use porting instead, hybrid stacks, coaxial chambers, etc, etc.  I designed, built and tested 27 different prototypes over the last year.

You didn't answer my question.

Your definition of works must be a bullet can go through the can and where it ends up is not important. Good luck with that.

On some.

Nearly every can out there that works well has assymetric baffle features, be it cones, Ks, Ms, slants or a monocore design.

Mitutoyo, Starrett, Fowler, Brown & Sharpe.

What is too tight depends on a few factors, but we can pretty well universally consider <.030" diametral clearance too close, .030"-.040" may or may not be, depending on a number of factors.  What is "too big" is also pretty subjective, but we know that a 6.5mm can with 6.5mm rounds is quieter than an otherwise identical .30 cal can with 6.5mm rounds, so clearly  increasing through bore by another .040" or .050" over what's minimal negatively affects suppression. Would you notice it on an autoloader with the port noise and/or piston pop?  Probably not, especially because the larger through bore of an oversize can will likely make the thing quieter at your ears with the lower back pressure.  But that's a whole different matter, one which I've designed suppressors to address specifically, and was successful while maintaining a through bore .050" over by incorporating backpressure reducing features other than excessive blow-by.

ETA:

I only have 4 cans from other manufacturers here to check, but they are:

TBAC Takedown .22, aperture size: .262"

AAC 7.62 SDN-6, aperture size: .364"

Silencerco Osprey .45, Aperture size: .495"

SilencerCo Hybrid .46, Aperture Size: .522"

So, out of 4, only one is > .050" diametral clearance.

If you'd like, I can take measurements on about 30 other cans at my friend's 01/03 retail store....

Why would I want to waste my time looking at one freeze plug or solvent trap can after another?


You look down on form 1  builders when many can build better cans that you can only dream of. Even solvent trap parts have evolved so many form 1 cans are better than what you have. Instead of trying to learn what's new you would rather be negative and stay in your own cave doing the same thing you have always done. Build a substandard produCT by today's standards. Good luck with that.

That I can only dream of? Ahahahaha! You have no clue who I am, do you?

Clue

I make things that you probably can't dream of, my friend.  You're not gonna admit that now, of course, but have a look through my other videos and then really consider if you want to debate me when you can't even use terms more specific than "physics" to describe the aerodynamic category of fluid dynamics.

Anyway, I don't look down on F1 builders, but I will always be skeptical of any claim that someone managed to do better with a bunch of purchased bits finished using a cheap drill press and tubing cutter than those of us running professional machinery.  I'm an 07/02 as well, bud, so have the distinct advantage of being able to think up a design one night, go build it over the next day or two, modify as necessary, and simply destroy it if I feel it's not worth filing F2 and continuing development with no loss other than materials.  I don't source any parts, either.  I just have piles of 17-4 bar stock, 7075-T651 bar stock, gr. 9 Ti tubing, etc.

I'll excuse your math as it being a Friday

Uh, let's see here

.262"-.223"=.039"

.364"-.308"=.056"

.495"-.451"= .044"

.522"-.458"= .064

Sure looks to me like 1 of 4 is >.060", the rest in the .050" +/- .010" range I have stated.  Technically the TBAC Takedown is under, but .039" is close enough.

You are correct that I don't know you and I don't want to either. You are to negative and not open to new ideas and it appears you are old school. I was only responding to your inaccurate  rhetoric. You respond by continuing your arrogant personal attacks.

You are also correct that you can probably build things I haven't dreamed of. I believe everyone has something to offer and I can learn something new from everyone but you haven't yet established that you have a working knowledge of the intricacies involved in how a suppressor works and how to make one better other than repeat what you have stated about the industry.

I have seen some great performing f1 cans made with a drill press but you automatically state it's doubtful. So you have some metal. Good.  You wanted to do some testing good.

Im burned out with your negativity but anytime you want to have an adult conversation i will be glad to participate. have a good weekend

Oh, the pic is of cones I have developed and made which have been proven by many folks to outperform all other cone styles on both subs and supers with no poi shift when clipped with.DHC.  The acronym for these cones is RSC.

Awww, I think I might shed a tear

Incorrect.  I just don't waste time with bad ideas.

First of all, you have not demonstrated my statements to be inaccurate in any capacity.

Secondly, I offered the OP sound advice.  You chose to challenge me.  I responded factually & civilly, and you went straight into the "LOL" game, accused me of spreading misinformation and then went on to assert your expertise with wild claims of performance but nothing to lend credence (Stating "This has been confirmed by many customers." is not proof of anything).  Of course my tone became more hostile.

What was that you were saying about arrogance and condescension?  You could learn a great deal about suppressors from me, but some things I won't share publicly until patent protection is in place, and I'm not interested in sharing anything with you, so you'll just have to glean what you can from my responses to others who are worth my time and haven't pissed me off.

A rather pitiful attempt at feigning high road behavior; you're not fooling anyone.  You've already demonstrated yourself incapable of engaging in respectful, mature discourse, have done nothing here but assert unsubstantiated claims and cast aspersions.  I'm not interested in having further dialogue with you in any capacity.

I told you in my first post responding to yours what the issue is, too small of a bore and the single clip. You spewed out industry standard this and that. Then you posted what caused poi shift as barrel harmonics. This statement alone shows just how little you understand and lack of knowledge.

I then invited you over to another board to do some factual reading  but you think you are too good for that and negatively responded about people you have no idea what they are capable of.

That's all fine since whatever you intend to with your license with regards to silencers is doomed to fail. The market will teach you many lessons. I don't think you could teach a duck how to swim much less educate anyone correctly with regards to silencers.

The 'double hybrid clip' works well with 40-50 thou annular clearance so Form 1 builders without a lathe or mill can bore an egged out hole with a bench top drill and still get decent results.  In fairness, using tubes and mounting end caps, and front caps from Diversified Machine, Rusty, SPC, Venom, and Totality is hardly low end solvent trap or freeze plug grade.

Rusty in his experience likes his design over single clips.  Single clips work and are easy and economical to machine. In my experience the weight of the can and the profile of the barrel have as much bearing on POI shift as the clip style.

I bet if you guys met over a couple of beers you'd have more to agree on than bicker over.   When I worked in a refinery in the Texas panhandle the Texans and Coloradans couldn't agree on much but they sure worked well together in spite of it.  Seems to be a universal pattern...

I do appreciate how you help the guys looking for information on building a form 1. That is all I am doing is sharing info with at least 15 years of building cans.

I have acknowledged a heavy can, about 22oz or heavier, or a thin barrel will create a poi.shift. A lighter can on a Govt profile or heavy profile barrel will not have a poi shift when the progressive bore I suggest is used along with the DHC on 60°, radials, or the RSC cans on an AR or bolt action host.

I have metered both a dedicated 556 and 30 cal can on on both an AR & Bolt actions with no difference in db on the bolt action between the 30 cal can and  556 dedicated  can. The bore size I am using and reccommend is 13/32 on the first 2 RSC blast baffle or 3 RSC on an sbr and 25/64 on the rest. With the proper spacing of course. The Endcap bore at 13/32.

The overall performance has been well documented by many folks on this board and the other board also and not just cans I have done but cans built by the individual posting and some done on a lathe and some done with a drill press, dremel  and hand file and in this thread also. And several SOTs have also verified they have achieved.

I  have not had any alcohol in 30.years or so I doubt any # of beers would help.. I do like your approach and example. I just don't get along with mud slingers. I did not start the mud slinging and 662 instead of asking for more a more detailed explanation  jumped right in with his negativity. You have been to the other board and mud sling is something I try to avoid, you know catch more flies with honey than vinegar aporoach.

This topic on bore size and clipping has been discussed so many times on every board  this is what drove the tutorial on the other board. I just think the individuals building a form 1 that come here and elsewhere are due the best information available to build the best form 1 possible. I have stated many times that everyone has different goals so they can decide what they choose to do but I will not accept degradation on a personal or professional level. I sometimes don't agree with the methods others used but will not start the mud slinging at a personal level as was done by 662. But thanks for jumping in with your post.

Rustyand knows suppression. He recently record my .30 cal Form1 that had end cap strikes. The new can weighs less and suppresses very well on my AR-15. Initial testing is showing little to no POI shift.  He freely shares his knowledge to help Form1 builders.  I only wish I heard about his advice before finishing my can. I believe my new can rivals some of the best commercial cans out there.  Just another satisfied customer.

I appreciate the great feedback. Happy customers are what I AiM  for so I try not have any poi shift??

OP, how long is your can?

Your stack added up looks like 4.5ish inches, which would make it a 5" or so can, which would make it loud.

I made a 5" form 1 5.56 can using freeze plugs and it kind of sucks.
I also made a 6.5" can and an 8" .308 can using the same freeze plugs and both of those are awesome.

There is no possibility that any kind of suppressor that size is making zero difference to sound suppression.  Even a shitty can will do 15-20dB and that is something that is noticeable.

Are you shooting indoors?  Cause thats the only thing I can think of that would come close to making you think there is no difference.