I've been reloading for a little while now but I've always used the basic dies. But I bought an AR10 finally and want to get every bit of accuracy out of my reloads that I can. So do match grade dies like RCBS's really make a difference compared to the RCBS AR series? (what I normally use now)

No, I would say unless you have a custom benchrest gun that can make 1/4" groups.

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So it looks like people like them more but they have added nothing to support buying them for accuracy purposes in your AR platform. My standard RCBS dies load .5-.9moa .308 ammo regularly for my bolt gun coming out of my  L-N-L auto-progressive press. Dies don't make much difference until you and your rifle get very good.

For sure not out of a ar platform. Waste of money

I have inexpensive Lee dies and expensive Redding dies with micrometers for .223, .308, and .338 LM.

The Redding dies are nicer, and "hold zero" between sessions better, and the ability to switch between bullets without having to reset the seating depth each time (ie just set micro to your documented setting) is great.

Can I outshoot the difference, maybe, some days. Regardless, good tools are their own reward. I don't ever regret buying nice stuff.

I use the RCBS competition dies in .308 and .223.  I've no idea if they make more accurate reloads, but they do make bullet seating a lot easier the regular dies.

For easy of seating and adjustment you can just get a Hornady Microjust seater die. That is what I use for .308 because I use so many different bullets.

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Agree with those above that the micrometer dials on those match seating dies are a real joy to use. The RCBS dies also have a bullet-drop-in-window so there's no balancing act to perform. And you certainly will not LOSE concentricity or consistency when using them.

Making your suggestion a hotlink: Hornady Microjust.

I have a set for my .223 and its handy for switching between the short 55gr and the longer 69 - 75 gr.

Depends. Sometimes definitely yes. I prefer the Redding full length S-dies because it lets me set how much I am sizing the neck. Most dies way undersize the neck. I use them even for blasting ammo.

 Yes
but you need to do the other things to make match grade ammo as well !
 
 sorting cases by head stamp, weight, how many times loaded, trimmed the same
 and that is just the cases, it goes on from there

 I have switched to competition die sets in most of the calibers that I load for
 223, 308, 3006, 6.5X55, 7X57   not 303, 7.92X57, 7.62X54R,
( traded the old die sets in at the reloading shop)

Competition dies are not necessary to make quality ammo.  They can be more convenient.

Competition seating dies are very good and allow you to adjust seating depth in .001" increments. Forster and Redding are the best IMO. Forster will custom hone their full length sizing die necks to the customer's dimensions. This allows anyone too make a custom die comparable to a bushing style provided you know what dimension you want. Loaded round dimension -.004" is a good choice. I wouldn't go closer than loaded round minus .003".

Very good ammo can be loaded with standard dies. Seating bullets in three stages, by partially seating the bullet and turning the round 1/3 the way around, seating a little more than turning it 1/3 the way around and finish the seating process will cut run-out in half.

I like good equipment and suggest people buy the best they can afford. This is a lifetime hobby and money well spent today pays off in the future.

Micrometer dial is the shiznit.  Not sure if they'll shoot all that much better, but they sure are nice to use!

I would say definitely say "YES" if you can find them used on eBay. I got a RCBS Match die set for about i/3 of the price of new. The best part is the bullet loads in the top instead of from the bottom. It's very fast and I don't pinch my fingers.

You would have a hard time getting a definition of what they mean when they call dies Competition or Match.

It is a marketing term for the most part and can be used to describe dies used in competition, but who can call them on it when they don't?

The body dimensions are one thing, and the necks another. The type S bushing dies have a dimension of control over the neck diameter, but that isn't always what is called a competition die.

If you know what you want to do to your brass, that is what you go after regardless of what the marketing guys call them.

If I had a good quality die set, like your RCBS die set, I would not just go out and buy a "competition" or "match" die set.  I'd wait until I identified some shortcoming of the die set or some enhancement they offered.

If I were buying a gear for a new cartridge, I wouldn't buy any other.

Like others have said..."worth it" is a relative term and depends on the shooter/rifle first.  But you have another micrometer styled seating die fan boy here (I use redding and have seen the forester in action too) for easy of use, easy to adjust/repeat if loading different coals for different loads, and probably less run out.  

A good seating die (get one)  combined with a sizing die/process that allows you to easily set/control consistent headspace and inside neck diameter will get you a long ways imo.    

works for me...ymmv

If you existing sizing die and whatever process you are using already produces sized brass with consistent headspace and inside neck diameters ... you don't need another sizing die or process imo.    And if it isn't working...check your process/lube first before running out to buy a new sizing die imo.

Also.....if varied opinions here aren't enough for you.......Zedikers book is a in depth opinion piece that might make you think about things you aren't thinking about now and/or he basically gives his opinion/answer to your question in this book, regardless of if you agree with his opinions or not its a decent read imo.    

It's been a while since I read it...but I seem to remember his examples including a lot of 308 talk too.

Thanks for the replies guys. I dont actually have any 308 dies as of now so I'm not looking to trade up to it. I have the Ar series RCBS for 223 and 300 blackout and I was just gonna buy those for 308 when I saw the RCBS "competition" dies. I'll probably just go with the AR series. I use a dillon 550b so I usually load in larger batches so I dont change bullets that often.

I'd say they're more for the convenience and micrometer features on the dies than any giant leap in accuracy potential.  

If you get any die set up properly so it's square to the axis, and the neck expander is straight you can make damned fine accurate ammo.  Even the basic lee dies.  

One thing I've grown to like is the bushing dies so that I'm not over sizing necks and then popping them back out with the expander.  Most of my older dies are quite shocking in how small they make the neck without the expander in place.  To me that's brass abuse.  The die makers do it, no knowing what brass you'll have so their method covers all bases usually.  

On the flip side with bushing dies I've seen some complaints about not being able to remove all the runout in the neck due to bushing movement.  I'm not sure how much I can buy into that being significant but it's been claimed.  Meh, I use them,  I have a few S type match Redding dies.   That said I think most of the better die companies will adjust your dies with a sample of your brass to eliminate that oversizing I mentioned in the above paragraph.

I think the best thing to do set your dies up right, lock the die down with a piece of brass inside.  I've seen recommended locking stems down with the pin in a flash hole and I've also seen recommended to lock them down with the brass being extracted from the sizer with the expander just below the neck for control (if high, it's likely too high for your decapping pin to work so you'll have do do that separately).   Try it both ways and check it out on a concentricity gage like hornady's or sinclair's.

If you're setting up and running large batches then you have even less reason to use a micrometer style.

 

I bought Forster dies for .223 and .308 because they were recommended in a thread on this site.  So far, 168gr SMK over 34.5gr of  Varget is MOA for a ten round group at 200M.  I think this die set is a good choice. This would be both sizer and seater.  I use a Lee FCD in both cases, light crimp.

I don't have a bench rest rifle, simply a Rem 700 Sendero with good glass and a Timney trigger.  

My Varget .223 loads didn't fare so well, but I think that may have been due to my cheap bullet choice.  Cheap Remington bulk 55gr fmj.  (M15T with LRT)

One set has a micrometer, the other set does not.  I would say that feature is over-rated.

And what are the groups when loaded with a regular 2die set?

I suppose it depends on your application.

In .223 alone in the last week I've loaded 77 Noslers, 77 SMKs, 80 Noslers, 80 SMKs, 75 A-Max, 75 PRVI, and 52 SMK bullets ... some in large batches, some in small batches for load development, and one batch with varied seating depths.  I love the micrometer.

I have that for my 300 blackout dies.   Makes it a lot easier.  otherwise, I use mostly the forster micro seating dies for everything else.

I went with what was recommended here and obtained acceptable results for me.  I don't plan further experimentation.

I shoot F-class (target rifle division) without a dedicated 'target/competition' rifle, and load ammo using standard RCBS dies on a Rockchucker.
I'm no threat to win matches, but I'm not bringing up the rear, either  I score in the top-half, right around mid pack.

As others have said, the guy or gal behind the rifle has more to do with precision than does the equipment
Not to thump my chest, but I outshoot buddies who use $200 die sets vs. my $30 set



Those 'trick' dies do give you much more control over neck tension, and the competition seating dies are very good at producing near-zero-runout loads.
I guess it all depends on just how OCD you want to get with it.

Zero runout loads don't do much unless the bore, throat, chamber and bolt are all zero runout and you run a very tight headspace . If you are running .002-.005 headspace on full length sized brass the ejector, gravity or the bolt will put the case somewhere other than the center of the chamber. Then of course the brass ID is going to have to be concentric with the OD of whatever part of the case that is making contact with the chamber. If everything else is near perfect then they may make a noticeable difference.

Never heard this before, please help describe what you think is happening there.

Also, What bearing does "a very tight headspace" compared to .002 (fairly tight) -.005 you noted have to do with what you think is happening?  How does that change if its .001?  or .0001?  (EDA ..I believed  any "free" headspace gets taken up with the pin strikes the primer and the brass gets driven forward?)

I'm not arguing... trying to learn something...request more info.....(edit for this....because you seem to be suggesting 100 rounds with run out problems will shoot the same as 100 rounds with out run out problems in an ar that isn't perfect  .....all else being equal .... and that side of the point respectfully misses me)

I think there are way too many variables to consider and one can go crazy trying to control all of them. Most of us would not be able to tell the difference

because our rifles are not highly tuned like a bench rest shooter's rifle. But, if it gives someone something to strive for and gets them out to shoot then I guess

it is worth it.

A tapered case with zero head space is going to center itself in the chamber of the same taper. If you bump the shoulder back .005" and have a full length size the case isn't guided into perfect center because it is a loose fit. The cartridge is going to "lay" off center, now add to that a chamber and bore that are not perfectly concentric with one another then you have a bullet starting out not centered with the bore. All things have to be concentric to reap the benifits of concentric ammo. Standard dies can make pretty straight ammo and that is what we are talking about here, sure comparing really bad ammo with perfectly straight ammo, I am sure you would see a difference even in a poor gun.  I am saying that the very small increase in concentricity that may come from match dies is going to be lost in the inconsistancies of the rifle. I the rifle shoots 1-1.5moa groups, the 0.09moa improvement if any will go unnoticed, therefore the added costs paid are providing no benefit.

It is like balancing a wheel perfectly and then putting a tire on it without balancing, sure the wheel is perfect but the car is still going to shake because all components are not working together.  

Thanks for response.    I was late with my other question so here is it........   I always thought the brass is driven forward when the firing pin strikes the primer (as some (I) would say is evidenced by pancaked primers and growing cases  if headspace is excessive).    Do I have that wrong?

I am sure in many cases it does, I guess much of that would have to do with the weight of the cartridge vs. the softness of the primer. Is the fast snapping action of the pin going to dent the primer enough to set it off or is it going to push that heavy mass first? A little .223 maybe, a 50bmg maybe not.

I know when I don't size enough it don't push anything anywhere.

Thanks again for the response.

"I know when I don't size enough it don't push anything anywhere"     Not that we need to, but at least on that we can agree.

Have a great afternoon.