Is it just me or are the prices of many machineguns coming down? I've seen a definite drop in uzi prices. I see FNC's that don't appear to be selling at their asking price. The outlier seems to be the m11/9. I think if anything, it is bucking the trend in the larger market due to the Lage .223 upper. I bought a Vector Uzi for what was a very good deal 3 months ago. With the recent changes in the market, I would now say I paid market value or a little under.

MG prices have always been all over the place.
Slowly going up with the potential of dropping to less-than a title 1.

All it would take is the illegal act 922 - 0 to be repealed.
If you want to play with Mgs look for the best deal you can find and get one.
Most likely you'll get your money back and maybe pay for some of the ammo you used.

When I got my first (mac10) mac11s were not as desirable due to rate of fire.

Some like the UZI have history & reliable a cool collectable mg.
Macs because  availability of new uppers & bolts over the years have been more bang for the buck.

No doubt with Lage and other upper options Macs are great for shooters.
Very hard to damage or wear out. Lost count of 10s of thousands of rounds run through my m10 & just recently replaced fcg not needed but just thought I would with new Lage upper.

All firearms sales are down, we are in the middle of the trump slump. Look at the prices of regular firearms, you can buy a AR15 for like $300-400 and all ammo is at record lows.

If you are a buyer of anything firearm related now is a great time to pull the trigger on a purchase.

With that said some MGs seem to be dropping in value
M16 and HK sears are dropping slowly from $35k down to low 30s.
Odd ball rifles like the AC556 and FNC have gone down in value.
M16s are still holding steady.
Really the only thing going up is the MAC family and yes that's directly related to future potential of the 5.56 uppers soon to hit the market.
UZIs are being hammer due to the demand of the MAC family, it doesn't have the after market support, the only thing keeping it going is that its a great firearm and has military pedigree.

I wouldn't worry about MG values going down long term. There is still a fixed or slightly decreasing supply of transferable MGs and a increasing number of people interested in owning one.
Remember the next election is two years away, so that means in about a year the campaigning will start and the threat of a democrat in office will increase gun sales.

EDIT: Like belchfire said MG ownership is and always will be a risky investment. If Hughes was ever challenged and repealed transferable MGs would have no value. Washington could pass new laws restricting the transfer of MGs meaning within a few decades they would die with their owners. And there is always the possibility of an event like the vegas shooting, if the shooter had used a transferable MGs (which he easily could have afforded) rather than bump stocks and it occurs with a democrat president in office it would be the end of civilian MG ownership. In all of these scenarios your $10k+ investment goes to zero with the stroke of a pen.

Not to mention that while MG values have gone up, they still lag behind the performance of the stock market. But if you're debt free and your 401k is well funded, buying MGs (or other collectible items like classic cars, art, etc...) is a great alternative investment that you can get some enjoyment out of. MGs should never be a retirement strategy, lets be honest you will probably never want to sell the thing anyways. I own MGs because I love to shoot them and its fun to own a firearm that most people can only ever dream of. If MGs were banned/confiscated tomorrow I would be extremely disappointed but would not regret or change my decision to have bought them even if I only owned the for a short period of time.

There are highs and lows in every market just as there are crests and troughs in every wave. It’s a great time to be a buyer. The guys I know don’t collect MGs in order to watch their market values like stocks, though I’m guessing it’s different for some dealers who sell a high volumes of transferables. For them, it is business.

To the other point someone made about a ban: Is it really possible that MG owners go to bed some night and wake up to the news that they can no longer sell their transferables? I doubt it. If (and it’s still a big if) future transfers are ever restricted, there would likely be some sort of period before the legislation went into effect in which owners could choose to sell or keep what they had. And because of it, prices would skyrocket because it would literally be the last chance for others to own one. And that’s assuming guys would part with what they knew they could never get back.

To me, that mitigates whatever “risk” is associated with the oft-cited “stroke-of-the-pen” argument.

That’s a damn good, honest post. Enjoyed reading it. Got my HK sear and awaiting approval for my M16A1. Wish I learned about transferable MGs sooner as I’d probably own a MG42, STG44, MP40, and a Thompson instead but they all shot up in price. The HK sear is still insanely fun, and I think having a M16A1 receiver will also be really fun since I can toss on most any upper. But you just made me realize I don’t plan on ever selling them so does the resale value really even matter to me now?

The NFA has been around for over 84 years and the Hughes amendment was passed 32 years ago. While MG ownership carries risk, there is also a high probably that nothing changes and prices continue to double every 10-15 years for the foreseeable future.

Whether it's your first or tenth transferable now is a great time to buy. Many are stagnant (such as the S&W 76), only a few seem to be appreciating at their past rates let alone at a higher rate (M11/9) and some are even trending down somewhat (Uzi.)

For whats its worth I thought I was done buying MGs. However with wait times down and more stagnant pricing I ended up buying 2 this month. Might put another on lay away. Maybe I'm just tired of Title I guns. Ha.

It's not just machine guns.  Look what has happened to suppressor prices.  Let's not forget that as well as the fears of Ms. H. Clinton being elected POTUS in late 2016, another major factor to the premature run up of machine gun prices that resulted in prices that were greater than a rational market value was the "41 Frenzy".  Numerous individuals were buying machine guns and suppressors prior to the 41F implementation.  That large influx of machine gun plus all the other NFA item buyers caused a huge backlog at the BATFE which has only recently stabilized.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

MG sales also always slump in the summer. There is the Trump Effect for certain, but I personally would not use this time as a barometer for MG sales/prices. Families just took costly summer vacations, now the kids are going back to school - this time of year is always slow.

Right. Other than the pipe-dream that is a repeal of Hughes, I’d consider no legislative changes to the NFA-MG market a win.

Very simple answer.  No.

ALL gun sales are stagnant, so of course MGs will follow.   The next scare and panic, and everything including MGs will fly right back up.  In 10 years, todays prices will seem like deals.

It is a good time to buy though, because everything is overall stagnant.  I know I have been taking advantage of that as far as buying more machine guns goes.

There is IMO an upper floor to MG prices in the form of the cost and hassle to get an 02/07 and set up a 'legitimate enough' business to make BATFE(arbf) happy, and brew up your own MGs.  Say it took a $100,000 investment to do this, and the business turns a small profit (again enough to be legit).  No way an UZI/MAC/M16/HK is going to go much north of that.

I don’t think post sample availability influences the price of pre-sample & transferable prices.

We're almost there now.

UZI $14K
Colt m16a1 $28K
M11 $8K
HK sear with host $42K

Total $92K

This exact debate has been ongoing since I started following transferable MGs in the mid 90s. Transferable prices will continue to rise. Buy transferable MGs because you want to own them, not because you look at them as an investment. Re: becoming an FFL/SOT, this should only be done if one plans on truly making a business of it. Running a business is not easy and it’s even less so if done part time. Add in the fact that ATF has been pressuring/discouraging LE about giving demo letters, one needs actual shop skills to manufacture MGs to obtain post samples.

Very well said.

As an FFL SOT, this isn’t how it works.  There is an appeal to a transferable that a post sample will never have and the price reflects it.  As I dealer I own 4 post samples, but 40 transferables.  There’s a reason for that.

People have been spewing this same BS since the 70s.  Lol.  As long as people are still being born and the dollar continues to plummet, we are no where near the upper ceiling for legal civilian ownable machine guns.  During the next panic everyone will remember this again.....

Someone else here gets it.

Yeah ive looked into this multiple times and it just doesnt make sense for most people including myself.  There are many barrier to entry and you have to REALLY be into shooting MGs to jump through all of the hoops. Its def a massive time commitment and unless you know your local CLEO getting the demo letters will be difficult. (Does the ATF even approve demo letters for non-modern firearms, like would they approve the demo of a M1919/BAR/Tommy Gun?)

So that means you pretty much have to go the manufacturer route. Which means tools and training. Converting a AR15 or AK is fairly straight forward and could be done in your basement with hand tools, but what about riveting a M240/M1919/M2? Even if you have the tools and the skills, post samples can still be very expensive, most belt fed MGs can easily run $10-20k for all the parts. Sure $10,000 for a post sample M60 is better than $45,000 but its probably still way more than most firearms owners are willing to spend, especially if they are used to buying ARs at under $1,000 a piece.

And then you have to actually run a semi-legit buisness, which means paperwork, taxes, filling out ATF forms, calling in background checks, being home all day to sign for packages, being open tot he public for sales. Oh and if you use your home as your place of business to save money then you are basically advertising to the public there is a large collection of firearms in your home.

ONE TIME FEES
$100 LLC fee
$1,000-5,000 for a gun safe (not requires but highly recommended)
$500-10,000 for tools

REOCCURING FEES
$200 every 3 years for a FFL
$500-1000 per year for a SOT
$6,000-12,000 per year ($500-1000 per month) to rent a store front if your home isnt zoned for business
$600-1200 per year for home security ($50-100 per month)
$500 per year for insurance
$100 per year for someone to do your taxes

If you are retired with tons of free time on your hands,  live in the country, and have a passion for owning lots MGs starting a FFL/SOT might make sense. Personally, I live in the city, work 50+ hours a week and only make it to the range at most a dozen times a year, probably less. Owning a couple transferable MGs is WAY less time and money than going the FFL/SOT route. IMO The biggest draw back to transferable MGs is not the cost but the limited variety. There are so many fantastic MGs made after 1986 that you will never be able to own (SCAR17 and MK48...*sigh*)

They don't have to be a local CLEO. Any CLEO in your state is acceptable.

Yes, they will. They have to, because they're following the law. The ATF does not have discretion/authority over what a LE agency can determine is suitable for their needs. Now ATF might call the CLEO and question it (although I haven't personally heard of this happening), but if the CLEO says yeah that's what we want to see, then it'll be approved.

It's actually pretty easy to rivet those side plates on. The hardest part is locating quality rivets. You don't have to worry about modifying parts so it's way easier than semi-auto builds, and the MG side plates are flat.

I paid $5k for a practically new M60E3 about a year ago, but I was really fortunate. Still, there are plenty of enjoyable MGs out there which are far less expensive.

Much of this is at the discretion of the licensee and their business model. FFLs can store their firearms anywhere, and receive packages at addresses not listed on the FFL (although few shippers will assist in this endeavor).

If there is truly a "Trump Slump" going on, then does it not follow that machine gun prices will be stagnant or perhaps even dropping for two and possibly six more years?

Interesting. That's basically the opposite of my experience. I've even had them approve a recently-imported RPD.

What did the silencer denial letter say?

Lol. Had a close friend in 1985 tell me that I need to buy a HK94 and have it converted. I looked at him like he was nuts. IIRC, he was using Vollmer (?), paid about $3k per and I think at last count he had 7 or 8 done along with a couple FNCs and assorted others. That man had vision!

one day in future socialist America, they will lower the magazine size from 10 to 5 rounds, no grandfathered mags allowed.    have fun at the range.  Hopefully I will be dead soon, but a 21 year old today, they might see it.

And it will be constitutional because you can still own your machine guns. Just like owning a supercar with a 1L gas tank and governed to 55 mph. But you can say you own it.

Aside from a few liberal breeding grounds (kalifornia, DC, NY,IL) the us as a whole has had a lot of pro gun bills past. For every one anti gun bill passed there are dozens of pro gun bills passed or old terrible anti gun laws repealed. The left wants you to think they are winning but the reality if they are loosing and if it wasn't for the funding of a few key anti gun billionaires there would be almost no resistance to the 2A.

I won't ever give up the fight for freedom and will do whatever it takes to make sure my kids and grand kids have the same rights I did.

Prices at the recent auction house

MG42 - $75k
MP40 - $55k
MP44 - $55k
etc.....

Yea, these prices sure are dropping.....  Thank God I got mine when I did.  Holy smokes!

Rock Island Prices always blow me away. Every once in a while something sells around market value. I imagine big time collectors with deep pockets go to those things.

If i die or am going to sell more then a few MGs I think having them handle it would be a good idea.

But what do they charge? 20% sellers fee? and a buyers fee?

The fees vary greatly and many times they do it with no fee at all to the seller.

Agreed.  I'll sell all three of these guns that I have right now for these prices!  Haha.

humm

why the varying scale? cost of weapon?

For that info, you’ll need to call and ask them.  Repeat customers, size of collections, type of gun, etc.

rgr

As someone who watches the market daily.....the simple answer is YES.

Today the price of HK sears is down.  M16s are down.

Hell, there are MACs NIB under 7K at dealers as of today!

Also as a long term MG owner; I also watched them drop in 2010.  I was offered a HK sear locally for 10K and passed on it then.  The MG will always* go up but will have swings up and down over a shorter term (just like the stock market).

LOL

People were telling me the same thing when I paid 12k for my M16A1.  My SOT even said the same when my $4500 FNC sear was transferred.  And back then, SOT fees were $500 yearly vs. the $2000 today.

Ive been keeping an eye on this thread since it was posted. This response is dead on. I think things shot up too far, too fast and what we are seeing now is a correction. Just like what sometimes happens in real estate. How does an FNC at $15,000 make any sense given the price of m16’s? I also continue to see a definite decline in the price of uzi’s.

I think that machinegun market has changed in terms of sellers, from what it was 10 years ago. At least on the net, the vast majority of guns are sold by a handful of dealers. Because of this, I think the dealers likely refuse or try really hard not to drop prices, as they don’t want to set a lower market value for that item. I think that makes the prices very sticky, even in a declining market. Back 10+ years ago there were many more individual sellers which probably resulted in a more agile marketplace. I think this is part of the reason why the current market is very slow to adjust down.

I agree with you 100%
Very good observation...

It's still $500 for the SOT today.

This is spot on!

Chris, I do not need the buddy price, but let me know next time.

Also my dog's birthday is coming up, I need to get him a new gun. Do you know of any deals, local to SW Fl or not?

If your pooch ever decides to sell his Oefinger 1919......please feel free to give him my number  

deal,

But I love the idea of the 1919 more then the carring it around. I have never fired it, and I let M_W take it out and it would not extract from the belt after a rd was fired. That really did not bother me, the gun was/is MINT. I am not even sure it was test fired after being built, it is that clean.

Anyway in 2014 I was getting my Divorce and was in Floirda, I talked to Doug (The Builder)to have him look at it, and burn off some rd. But STUFF was happening.

Last yr in Sept the Hurricane, so maybe April next yr Ill see if he/we can get it running. Might try to buy some spare part from Doug also??

That said, if I find a deal on a m60, the 1919 is on the table..

born June 4th 2009. So 9 1/2

I know I missed his birthbay, I was still in Germany, but Illl make it up to him.

He is a damn good dog,

He is on the 1 strike program in Fl, he sent a crack head to the ER. Guy was beating on my moms front door, and my dog bit the shit out of him...

Lets be clear, yes the cost of the SOT is only $500 per year.  But to make your own machineguns, on top of the SOT $500 there is also registration with the State Department.  It is my understanding that ITAR registration is over $2,200 per year.  If you make machineguns, then those machineguns might be exported so the State Dept feels ITAR registration is required.  Since the BATF&E doesn't communicate with the State Dept., you might be able to avoid ITAR fees.  Of course if they find you, then there could be very big legal consequences.  It is also my understanding that it is a felony to become a dealer to improve your collection.  So a "reasonable person" would need to think you are trying to run a business and make a profit, not build a bunch of machineguns so you can shoot them.  Setting up a viable business also has costs associated with it.  YMMV.

Scott