Now that the weather is getting nice again (were opposite from you guys in the cold country ) I've been taking out the kids to shoot their .22's. my daughter is only 3 so for her it's just safety dicipline, but my oldest who's 5 1/2 is eager to hit that orange dot on the paper or swing the spinner and gets a little discouraged.

Part of me thinks just put a mini red dot on it for him for now to build his confidence and concentrate on the trigger control and positional shooting, but the other part of me wants to make him stick to the irons till he figures it out so he becomes a greater overall marksman.

He does great following my direction on order of operation. He's shooting a Savage Rascal so I have him in the habit of open bolt, safety on, load, chamber, get on target, safety off, fire, open bolt and make sure the weapon is clear, safety on repeat.

right now I set him up at 10yds if shooting paper and 15-20 if he's shooting the steel spinner. i've tried to get him to shoot prone off of a bag but he prefers shooting out of my lap(both of us sitting and I support the fore end of the stock)

What would you guys reccomend?

On a high note he did perfectly centerpunch mom's mini pumpkin from her thanksgiving centerpiece from 10yds

You know your gut is right.
Irons

I would stick with irons until they've mastered those. Have you tried a large rolling target going slow, and then faster? That could be a better build-up to the spinner plates. Surprise them with a red dot later as a gift.

guess i'm not understanding what type of target this is? I have two steel targets one is a spinner and it has a 2" and 3 1/2" plate then I have a swinging target but those are 1", 2", and 3" so I stopped taking it out after the first trip (kinda my bad, he see's me lighting it up then trys and doesn't hit it and got a little sad) still a good sport about it all in all. I think the pumpkin worked out so well since it fit in the aperture just right It was a perfectly centered shot!. have you seen large .22 plates? like 6"?

I'm gonna go against the grain and say buy the red dot.

Iron sights bore the hell outta young kids, whereas hitting the target tickles their funny bone and makes'em giggle- especially reactive targets.

Once they get older, iron sights can be taught. When my son was 4, I taught to shoot with a Daisy BB gun and a Daisy red dot before graduating to a .22 with a red dot. He had a ball every time we went out.

When he was about 12 or 13, I taught him how to use irons and he was more able to grasp the concept.

Irons irons irons.
Then when they have them mastered, more irons.

My grandpa used a bucket or old oil barrel with me, but anything that will roll and keep a round side exposed to the shooter would work the same.

ok gotcha. I think were a long ways away from a moving target.

It would be easy to make a 6" 1/8" thick plate and hang it but i'm leary as you don't see anything like that on the market so it could be a ricochet hazard.

has anyone tried shooting empty 1 gallon paint can with a 22lr?

yes he has good uncorrected vision.  he has only shot irons so not sure how he'd do with a red dot. I personally don't care for them so don't own a high end one for him to try. I like my low powered variables. I did buy him a cheap mini reflex sight the same time I bought the rifle, but haven't purchased the base yet as I had a change in heart to keep him on irons after shooting it. the peep sights are very nice on the rifle and I feel easier to understand than the notch and blade style I grew up on. EGW makes a nice base for the rascal now so maybe i'll order one up and let him give it a try and do like you guys are saying and let him keep interest in the sport now and when he gets older put him back on the irons.

It's tough, all of this tech these days has me jacked up. I feel like it's hurting our youth having so many choices and tech available to them. i'm only in my mid 30's and I'm sure I'm lazy compared to our elder's here. lol

When I grew up I had to use my imagination and creativity to keep myself entertained. and when I got a bb gun all it took was a decent supply of bb's and some of dad's empty beer can's to keep me happy for a long while, and you best believe I recovered as many of those bb's as possible to reuse them. later I recieved a hand me down jc higgins single shot 22. and I got really good with that old rifle. give a boy a bike and he has a whole new world of freedom.

today they want to play video games, watch netflix, play on tablets,ect. I had to force them to ride their bikes, "their friends have electric scooters so why can't they" lol I stayed the course and now they enjoy their bikes. kind of feel the same way about the red dot I guess. one thought process is it's a handicap, the other is they are the new norm.

read a few reviews and they say the feedback is pretty poor with 22lr. any first hand experience?

I'm against the grain as well.  My boy turned 6 in September and started shooting earlier this year. He shot my brother-in-law's Beretta rifle that had an Aimpoint on it and did very well with it.  I ended up setting up a Crickett for him using a Primary Arms mini red dot.  We have a blast shooting together now. 

Punching paper isn't much fun for him.  We've got the little 3 target spinner and I bought some groundhog "poppers" that he loves shooting.  I've got a spot in the front yard set up and the firing line is at 30 yds.  We can move to irons a little later on.  I enjoy watching him have fun shooting right now while learning safety and handling. It isn't a boring "school" type environment that will make him not enjoy the sport.  He truly enjoys shooting and is very confident while doing it.  Those interactive targets are awesome.




CHRIS

I'd stay with the irons for a bit yet. It's a better teacher of the fundamentals.

Stick with irons, move targets close. Training for group size until hitting POA/ POI then start moving farther away, same thing work on groups. Move back closer if  they open up too much an don't shoot past point of fatigue. 

People might boo boo it, but red dots were literally designed as a crutch for shooters who were in positions where perfect fundamentals can't be applied with irons I.E. shooting people at close range. As such, skipping to red dots too soon really takes away from the skills developing when they are rip for it. 

Sticking with irons until the fundamentals of marksmanship are a habit will do better for him down the road, than giving in to the instant gratification of red dots. 



When he's a bit older might look into 4H shooting clubs or Appleseed shoots to get a more formal marksmanship training. 

The red dot will help relieve the pressure and stress of shooting and allow more learning of trigger discipline and safety. I prefer it with new shooters as well. Put the dot on the target and pull the trigger without flinching. That's easy.

After shooting is fun and becomes a routine then irons can be mastered. If starting with iron sights turns off a shooter and makes the experience a chore than the whole thing backfires.

great input on both sides of the argument. Now I'm really undecided. lol

On a side note any of you have a child that's right handed and left eye dominate? my stepdaughter is a excellent shooter although her shooting style is very unorthodox. she shoots on her left side but her left hand supports the forend and she pulls the trigger with her right hand. tried switching her full left handed and no go. she can beat up those swingers and spinners at 50 yds all day long shooting the way she does. do you guys try and change their shooting habbits or if it aint broke don't fix it?  I put her prone at 75 yds and setup 10 clay pigeon's on the berm and she went 10 for 10 with her little marlin 795 with irons.

I sucked with irons and didn't know why until I had an eye test at 18 years old.  Perfect vision until I go to the various directions of the E in the machine.  It turns out that I see them fine when looking through a pinhole (essentially a peep sight).  

Optics would have killed me a lot more squirrels.  A peep sight wouldn't have even been a consideration, as I had no way of knowing.  All I did know is that with a V rear sight I just don't get a clear sight picture when it is  a specific distance from my eye.  


BUY YOUR KID THE OPTICS.

Already looked into the 4H but the local 4H club is strictly Livestock here.

I do want to try the appleseed project when he's older. I debated long and hard about buying him a liberty training rifle (795 with tech sites and a sling) and cutting the stock short, but the rascal was a better fit as they get trigger happy with their sister's 795. so I'm glad I went the single shot route.

I plan on building a subsonic .223 upper like that beck's one for the appleseed. everyone in the house now has a stripped lower thanks to Hilary so I figure that would be a good way to start them on a AR. that's a good ways down the road though.

My kids been shooting a little over a year, 5yo and 7yo
Started with Irons, introduced them to Red Dot about 2 months ago.
They switch back and forth, and can do either.

suppressor and steel targets are what really keep them interested.

I'm right handed/left eye dominant.  Shoot long guns from left shoulder pulling trigger with left hand.  Right hand is used for bolt manipulation and support.  My uncle taught me to shoot and had me go with with the dominant eye side.  It's worked out ok enough for me.  I actually prefer using a right handed bolt action (on my left shoulder) when doing long range stuff off a bipod or rest.  I don't own any "lefty handed" rifles at all.

CHRIS

with dirt filled beer cans, or old shotgun hulls to plink around. now the only time I personally shoot paper is when I'm doing load development after that it's all steel. The kids like their paper targets from time to time (zombies, and critters)
suppressor stamp's should clear mid Feb if things keep the same pace so I'm sure that will add a lot of fun for all of us. I wish I had steel targets growing up, best I had was a wire cloths line

For sure the reactive targets are where it's at. I only have the two for 22lr. have 2 spinners and a dueling tree for handgun and a 2/3 IPSC and 20" gong for my rifle. we actually set the dueling tree up at 300yds and tried the .308's on it, was a bit much. angled it some more with a 4x4 and went to 400yds and by far the most fun I've had to date behind the gun. 6" plates at as fast as you could get a round back in and on target. a 25 shot string probably isn't the greatest thing on the barrels though. Was pretty tender after that outing. (shot 80 rounds that trip) next time were going to push it back to 600 to slow down the cadence and to make us work for it.

While I am a die hard iron sight shooter I can see this having some merit. Early on you want to keep the kid engaged and interested to continue as he ages. Constantly missing is discouraging for anyone but especially a youngster. Anything that keeps the younger generation shooting and in a position to carry on the legacy of shooting in America is a good thing

Can you try some clay pigeons against a berm?  I think my kids like shooting those the best.  

As far as irons go, my kids started out shooting irons.  They did shoot a .22 single shot with a scope some, but they don't like scopes.  And they don't really like the Red Dot.  The complaint about the red dot is that the dot moves around.  The complaint about scopes is that you have to have your head perfectly to see through it and it makes it harder to line up.  

They both shoot irons pretty much exclusively and do pretty well.  My Daughter is the pistol shooter and my son likes the 10/22 and M-1 Carbine.  My daughter is 13 and son 16.  

I did my son when he was pretty little like you do. set him in my lap.  With my AR I let him shoot it with his face on the stock but with a collapsible I'd run it all the way out and put it against my own shoulder and there was just enough room for his head to set on the stock and look down the sights.  And then I'd hold the forearm loosely and have him kind of move it.  We had to communicate a little bit to get it right but he'd hit his target.  

I'm with you about the electronics.  I was in heaven when I got my BB gun at 14 (1986) and spent a lot of time outside shooting stuff, etc.  Now I'm constantly telling them to get off of the computer and tablets.  I'm right there with you.  

Personally, I'm all about the irons.  Even with myself when I hunted deer a lot, I chose irons a lot because our shots were typically closer and a lot of times on the move.  And it was easier to deal with.  And I got deer with them.  Although I started with a bolt gun with a 4x on it and it worked in some cases too.  

Personally, I'm getting fed up with optics on my AR's.  Regular scopes ruin the balance and make an already sort of heavy gun, heavier.  I'm not sure I gain that much with a red dot accuracy wise, even though it's in theory easier on the eyes because you're just focusing on the target.  I'm not sure if it's my eyes or what but I'm still struggling with at 50 yards.  I have to squint my left eye in order to be able to get the proper focus and sight picture.  Otherwise it ping pongs back and forth between my right and left eye.   I shoot irons and don't do bad with them.  And at super close range, I don't see how a red dot is any faster than the ghost ring.  IMHO, the biggest asset of the red dot, is low light.  But once you put on the light on your gun, the irons become very visible.  So.....

And about pistols.....  I'm glad my daughter likes to learn pistol.  Because maybe some day she'll carry and need to use one.  And yes, you can put a red dot on a pistol, but I still say it's more of a luxury than a necessity.  And in the end, a good RDS costs money.  Along with the gun, ammo, holster, training, etc. etc....  One more cost that we don't always have money for.

So...  IMHO, Irons are the way to go.  I would just have them shoot a little bit bigger targets for now until they get better.  Clays are so much fun.  Heck I like shooting them more that paper.  For sure.  I don't do steel too much.

JJREA I appreciate your response. I to am not a fan of the red dot's (has more to do with the blue tint than anything) I like a fool I sold all of my 5.56 AR's when times got rough (2008) and invested it into componets, and a .308 AR as my Do all rifle. of my rifles I had two that stood out and if I had to grab just one i'd really have to think about it. one was my 16" noveske recon with a leupold 1.5-5 MK4 and the other.....a 16" A2 dissipator.

It balanced so well, it was relatively light and there's something to be said about a KISS rifle. I had a DCM free float on it (uses standard handgaurds but ties into the barrel nut rather than the FSB. a group of us used to setup our own carbine courses and I was as fast or faster than the guys with their aimpoints and scored higher on the 100yd target (would do 3" groups on the fly prone with M193) the added sight radius was very welcoming. I will build another similar one day.

irons - learn basics first

My dream build is a 605.  But an A2 Upper Dissy would do just fine.  Heck, I should probably get a longer rail for my 14.7" or my 16"er. For the extra sight radius.  My eyes don't do as well with the Carbine sight radius, but within 25 yards it's just fine.   And I can hit pretty well out to 100 with it.  It's just is a lot more blurry.  

Yours is very nice.

Nope

The marines and army have already figured this out.

YOU dont need "irons" to master the basics Anyone that says this really hasn't actually "trained" non/young shooters.

(notice I didn't say irons are invaluable)

dots allow the shooter to concentrate on trigger control, breathing, without site alignment/target focus to become a problem, which is very hard for a young shooter and for a instructor to notice/correct.

OP you might want to try a few things...

-Have him shoot on paper at the same distance as the spinner.  You can get a better idea of what he's doing right/wrong.
-If he's having trouble seeing the spinner or lining up his sights get 2 wooden stakes and a piece of poster board from the dollar store to put behind it.

I have a sneaking suspicion his trigger control is probably the issue.  Of course you won't be able to tell if that's the case till he shoots in the prone off a bag...but if he's not ready for that yet don't push it.  Better to keep him in his comfort zone for the time being and keep him interested/engaged.  If that means getting a red dot then do it. 

It's too bad you can't mount a laser on there...this is one of the few times I could see it helping to diagnose what's going on and help you give him immediate feedback.  Of course the negative of it is that he might look for the dot rather than use his sights. 

Kids like reactive targets. Something that gives them instant feedback. I got my first gun at age eight. A BB gun that I shot thousands of BB's through. There were no dot sights back then. I got bored easily shooting paper. Walking back and forth to check my hits and changing targets. Yuck

There was a drainage ditch that ran alongside the property line near our house and I got the idea of taking my plastic army men and learned to be a sniper with hundreds, maybe thousands of kills from the opposite side of the ditch. When the 4th of July came round I used firecrackers as grenades to blow them out of their bunkers.

You can get spinning targets and the little rolling type targets at Walmart that I bet the kids would love. Don't know if it would work, but some Tannerite in small pill bottles might be fun too.

Jumping on the red dot train.

I'm on the verge of starting with my kids and my primary .22 trainers are going to be with red dots.  Aside from safety, making it fun is the most important thing, and for me, red dots are the most fun way to shoot.  I put good irons as #2, but kiddos only have some mental space to retain it all.  I don't have access to a good range for steel or reactive targets, so I'm going to have to try the different target games I've seen. The red dot is going to go a long towards making that more fun.

I'd say forcing irons on someone that may not be enjoying them would be about the same as the asshole dad that teaches their kids to shoot with a .300WM.  Make them hate it, and it'll stick for the rest of their lives.  Make it fun, and you'll have a blank canvas to teach it all.

I'm cross-eye dominant, very right-handed but with a strong preference for my left eye.  I shoot right-handed.  With irons and red dots, I can get away with canting my head a little bit offside to make it easier to use my left eye, but magnified optics are more challenging to get the eye relief right so I tend to force my right eye in those cases.  Which is why my preferences are for red dots and irons.

I think of training for the kids like this----

Safety of course comes first. (we all know this!)
With the real small tots that can actually mean keeping a hand on the barrel.

Tough part is properly fitting a gun to the size of a small kid who likely doesn't have much strength . Even if you get that all worked out they grow so fast it is tough.

I don't worry so much about "fundamentals". To me the key is (after safety) having fun and holding interest. If the kid can't hit well because he or she can't get a decent sight picture they are going to get bored fast. If they are bored you are not going to be teaching them much.

Getting a gun to fit so they can line up the sights with the target and pull the trigger can be a battle. A red dot can be a huge help. If the gun has been zeroed and the kid can get close enough to see the dot it will hit the target no matter how they are holding on to it. The same can not be said for irons.
The red dot is very intuitive , put the dot where you want the bullet and pull the trigger.

If you can keep the kid interested and hitting stuff the shooting game is won and down the line as the kid gets older and fits a gun better the iron sights can be taught

A little different perspective:

For kids under 8, red dot.  It eliminates the vision issues of having to reconcile multiple focal planes, which are especially tough on both young and old eyes.  Spend your time teaching shooting fundamentals, not vision fundamentals.

^What he said. At that age, shooting should be about having and doing it safely, not becoming an ace rifleman. Save the iron sights for later on.

good advice, thank you all. i'm going to go ahead and get a scope base coming and try out that mini reflex I have and see how he likes it.

Red dot for young children so they can focus on trigger control and steadying the rifle. It's no fun struggling to line up sights and constantly miss the target. The old "mastering irons" mentality doesn't work well with a 3 year old. Sometimes shooting just needs to be safe and fun.

Yeah, those mini RDS would probably be a good choice because they're so light and won't add any weight to speak of.  Instead of putting a honking 30mm tube on on there.  Which could make the gun a lot heavier for them.  

I totally get the points of keeping it fun for them and didn't mean to steer you wrong.  Seems like in my family things are always backwards.  LOL.  Like I said before, I've tried to get my kids to shoot with RDS and scopes and they just don't prefer it.  But they are older.  Plus both my wife and daughter are cross eye dominant that makes things a little more interesting for rifles.  My Daughter shoots pisol lefty (that's what she is) but just uses her right eye by cocking her head a a little.  But shoots rifles righty.  My wife shoots pistols righty (which is what she is) but just cocks her head and uses her left eye.  But then the one time I got her to shoot a rifle, I think she just closed her left eye, because shooting lefty was too weird for her.  

And even myself.  I've owned an AP Pro for a little while and I still just prefer irons, for the most part.  The added weight takes away the upsides for me.  I should've tried a PA advanced micro Dot first and I may be singing a different tune.  I still don't think my eyes do any better with one though over the irons.

didn't steer me wrong at all. you and I seem to think on the same plane. I do very much intend on getting him back on the irons once he get's a little older. One of the posts above did mention something I didn't really think about because it's second nature to me is the multiple focal planes involved when shooting irons. and I can totally see how that can be confusing to a 5yr old.

He also doesn't get as much time behind the trigger as I did growing up. I grew up on the farm so it was no big deal to grab my bb gun and go outside and have a blast. I pretty much always had my own makeshift shooting gallery. be it beer cans, shotgun hulls, tuna cans, cereal boxes ect..

I may even try and play with the irons and see if I could get away with putting a taller front sight on and co-witness the RDS

Before I got my BB gun, I did a lot of models.  Then one day after I got my BB gun, I took them all out and shot them up......  For some reason that was more fun to me than just sitting there looking at the forever.  And some of them were pretty nice.  With custom paint jobs.  Probably stupid, but was still fun.  

Anyways.....  I'll lived in a farm house with land that I could shoot whenever I wanted to, also.  

I do remember once when I was a boy, some of my Uncles took me shooting at a quarry and they had I'm pretty sure it was a Mini 14, and the ghost ring sights made absolutely no sense to me.  I was pretty young.  Maybe 5.  And I had only had cap guns with open sights and I'm pretty sure my Dad showed my how to use open sights.  But when they handed me that mini 14 with an aperture sight, I was baffled.   I think I remember thinking at the time it seemed like it would be so not precise, so to speak in comparison with an open sight.  LOL.  

So yeah, I can see iron sights being a thing with kids and an RDS would be more simple.

I first taught my 4 year old on red dots, then once they got the hang of it I had them shooting peeps and standard posts, then moved to open sights.
a total progression.

red dots are wonderful for beginning shooters.

there is more than just marksman ship you are teaching

you are teaching perseverance
you are teaching patience
you are teaching technique
you are teaching tradition

and when it is accomplished you will have brought your kids something invaluable- self confidence & pride

god bless you OP

I took Wleding and Fab classes in high school.

We learned oxy-acet first. Then arc. Both require great angle, heat/power, and weld pool awareness. Long after those, we were finally allowed to use Mig. Wirefeed is insanely easy compared to all of those.

Tig was more difficult, so we only dabbled in it. Not a super easy system. Lots more to tip shaped and all that as well.

Point is, the army taught the same way. It was all irons, for weeks. Then, we did a CCO fam fire on a CQB range after we had qual'ed with irons. Got to my unit and we zeroed irons and optic, and most qual'ed using optic.

Irons are harder. Teach them first so they truly appreciated the fineness of sight picture and sight alignment.

ETA: Welding 1 we only basically 'fam fired' on Tig, because it takes so much more to learn and use, odds are low we'd ever do it. We spend less time on mig because it was easy. Once I go to the Welding Fabrication class, we mostly used migs. Lol. Like how modern combat arms units only use optics.

It sounds like alot of the responses don't have much experience working with children that aren't even in kindergarten yet. Their brains have not yet developed complex processes that enable the patience and depth of field reasoning to master irons. My kid has been behind a red dot since he was two. Safety and enjoying the outdoors by having a good time shooting are our primary objectives at this age. Of course at the age of two the rifle was totally in my control. As he's aged (just turned 5 this month) he's become much more focused on trigger control and being able to steady the rifle. He still sits in my lap and isn't free to move around with the rifle. He's working his way to understanding marksmanship so using irons will be introduced in time. I've witnessed first hand the frustration between child and parent at the range for a "teaching" session. I want my kid to enjoy shooting and hunting as much as I do, but I can't force it. I can make it fun while keeping safety top priority. He's always all smiles and each year I've had to up my ammo budget.

Here he is at age 4 with one of his favorite targets. Rifle is a Rascal with a DI Products rail cut down and a mini red dot mounted on the forward section. His finger is straight but short so it only looks like he's touching the trigger.

thank you RipGear I was looking for a mount that allowed iron sights to still be used down the road and I wanted to mount the optic forward of the action as well. I'm sure your proud of your little guy as well. and I agree it takes serious patients and can be frustrating for both him and myself at times. took him out again this weekend, he wasn't too interested in it this outing (was cold and windy....well for us at least, lol) let him drive in my lap till we got back to the main road, he was all giggles when I'd accelerate quickly for a few seconds in the open areas all in all was still a good day in the end.

The rear sight on the Rascal is only held on by two small screws so that assembly is in a bag ready to be mounted when the time comes. Note that I modified the rail by cutting off the rear section. The rail is aluminum so a minute with a cutoff wheel, another minute with a file, and few minutes with Alumablack and it was ready to use. Forward mounting the red dot and cutting the rail leaves the chamber area unobstructed so loading a round is just as easy (or easier) as stock.

Two additional points of advice that I've learned from helping very young shooters:
1) Use Aguila Super Colibri (20 grain powderless, 500 fps) 22LR ammunition. They are super quiet (on par with my 22 suppressors with subsonic ammo) and zero recoil. They will not function a semi-auto but at this age they are mostly on the single shot bolt gun. I've found they are fine at 50 yards and in. Past that the drop is severe and the group really opens up - yes I've shot the Rascal for groups :).

2) Use reactive targets if your range or shooting area allows. I've had good luck with clays (they break visibly), the rubber bird in the picture above (swings visibly), hanging soda cans (empty and full), and various fruits/vegetables/gourds. Keep them close to the shooter in the beginning. As they consistently hit the targets move them back slowly. Moving them back will probably take numerous sessions and shouldn't be rushed. Make it just difficult enough to be challenging and easy enough to be fun. I go for about a 75% hit rate to judge difficulty (and the kid's attitude/mood/reaction while at that distance with a particular target).

SAFETY NOTE: Steel pistol targets might seem like a good idea but low velocity 22LR should NOT be used on them. It is too slow to break up on impact and will tend to bounce back at the shooter. The recommended distances are also farther than most young shooters will be able to engage reliably.

Hope this helps anyone working with a young gunslinger!

Yeah I caught that with the rail. I was looking for something with the ability to leave the rail on and remove the optic and put the rear sight back on as needed. didn't know about that brand of rail.

I had some CCI CB's pigeon holed that I started him on. he just upgraded to cci standard velocity two outings ago. the cb's were silly quiet, the firing pin was louder than the report.

I'm a huge fan of the reactive targets, I bought them a 3 plate swinger but it's far too challenging for them right now. I also have one of the swinging targets also it has a slightly larger plate but like you said you have to move so far back to be safe that it again becomes to difficult and thus discouraging. he had a good time with the mini pumpkin and I may start buying reduced price produce for him till he gets a little better or try one of the self healing targets like you have there.

I think the red dot is going help him out and build some confidence. we'll find out here in a few weeks.