Quoted:
cool
what year and what manufacturer, do you know? edit- oops read you don't -french belgium maybe FN. may be 1870's era-my best guess
what were you using for close up photos?

Most countries proof their firearms. When the arm passes the test a proofmark is punched on vital parts (Duits: Beschußzeichen, French: Poinçon). On this page you'll see some Belgian proofmarks. The Belgian proofing institute is situated in Luik (Banc d'épreuve des armes à feu). Due to a fire in 1922 all the archives of inspectors were lost resulting in the fact that punches applied before 1922 can't be traced back to the applying inspector or the date the arm was punched. More proofmarks: http://www.proefbankstempels.nl/

The pepperbox experienced a kind of "revival" in the late 1800s as a short, easily concealable pocketweapon that used pinfire cartridges. A special variation of this kind of handgun, in which the shortness of the barrel cluster was fully utilized, is the French "Apache revolver." This weapon, allegedly popular among Paris street gangs, was fitted with a folding blade and knuckle-duster.[11] The pepperboxes from this period disappeared with the demise of the pinfire cartridge.

 Unique Pipe Cased and Monogrammed Belgian Pinfire Pepperbox Revolver:
Serial no. 3, 7mm caliber pin fire, 2-inch barrel, blue finish ebony grips. There is a pre 1893 Liege proof mark on the rear face of the cylinder along with a crowned “F” proof, the serial number, and three notches. The right side of the frame under the grip has a “TL” maker's mark. The cylinder is 2 inches in length and holds six cartridges. Folding trigger, smooth ebony grips. The ejector rod screws in to the butt. Complete in a black morocco leather case with a blue stain and velvet French cut interior with four rounds of original 7mm pin fire cartridges. The exterior of the lid is stamped with a white crown over a gold script “Y H” and two gold borders. Condition: Very good plus. Two of the cylinder flutes have most of the original blue finish with the remaining metal surfaces a silver/gray patina. The cylinder, trigger and hammer have scattered light to moderate pitting and there is a small area of minor pitting on the top right of the frame. The grips are good with a few scattered minor scratches. Mechanically fine. The case is fine with some minor corner and edge wear. Over half of the gold leaf border remains with most in the letter “H” and most gone in the letter “Y.” the interior is good with some wear, rust on the hinges and overall moderate stains.

PRICE: $1,500.00
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Quoted:
I have one that looks a lot like it, it's a Meyers Brevette. Pepperboxes are sweet.

Quoted:
Meyers Brevete

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/meyers%20magazin%20royal-02.JPG

I'm going to have to look up what Brevete means.

Just check that in business it means patented or patent protector..

Quoted:
I wish, that would be cool. It looks like yours:

Similar to this one without the engraving

Quoted:


WOW!! No front cylinder mount.  Front of the frame rounded. I hope that the hole in the cylinder bolt isnt being used for a laynard.

Good thing that these guns are made for short range. I had found a link last week to a test firing of a 7mm Pinfired pepper box. They showed the bullet stuck sideways in a sheet of plywood. It was only about twenty feet away and the bullet tumbled sideways. I guess that length of the barrel does make a big difference.

If it is not single (?), this model is excessively rare in this caliber. Indeed, we know 2 weapons in this form which I described as "prototypes" in the article published in the review "the Museum of Weapons" n° 107-108 of December 2004. Both in 12 mm with pin. That of the Museum is of nickelled completion and that of my collection is bronzed black.

To "artisan" manufacture, one belongs in addition to the length different from the guns, a trigger guard broader and located ahead on the specimen of the Museum of Weapon of Liege, a squaring different from the grips; the gun is striped and a light squaring on the tail of the hammer on the specimen of the author and non-existent on the other whose gun is smooth.








The presence on the 7 mm of punches of English test (Birmingham) does not make it possible to cancel a Liège manufacture because, indeed, except error of my share, all the imported weapons were tested once again in England.

The manufacturer: of his collaboration with LEDENT François Joseph, manufacturer of Saint-Remy weapons, with whom it deposit, between 1864 and 1870, 6 patents or improvement, one can suppose that it is Ledent which assembled Degueldre "of the 1st type".

It should be known that at that time in Liege (about 1860-1880), NO firm manufactured a weapon in its totality, the "manufacturers" (* 174 listed in 1884) were actually assemblers which ordered with the many craftsmen available (* 11.204 people listed in 1880 in the sector of the firearms other than the women and of the children, casual workers), the various parts necessary (carcass, gun, barrel, stem of extraction, trigger, plates...) for such or such type of weapons and these parts were often made "at home" by families specialized in the production of only one component.

The inventors conceded readily with one or more manufacturers, in exchange of "royalties" the manufacture of the weapon resulting from their imagination, in the same way, if the orders were important, the manufacturers sub-contracted a share of their production or constituted themselves in "trade union" to face the request (thus was born the F.N.).

But let us return to this revolver in 7 mm to pin which presents the three innovations that one can allot to Degueldre: a system of lever allowing the projection of the block barrel-cylinder, a collective extractor made up of a steel circle surrounding the barrel, with the limit of the notches necessary to the exit of the pins, fixed at the shield and the small lever at spring, installed in this shield, which is erased under the pressure exerted by the introduction of a cartridge and is positioned back on the base, very preventing left inopportune.

There be no BELGIAN patent (1) concerning these innovation and yet one find on the version "simplify" of Degueldre (see photo more low in this heading) which have be marketing and A seem it known a success relative, the marking "Degueldre patent" (2).

The principal differences are as follows:

The lever which is used to advance the cylinder-barrel unit is decentred and simplified and is located on the right side of the weapon, it fixes itself at before right of the barrel, but the functionality remains identical.

The handle is round, in the pear shape, and narrower with also a ring of cap. The barrel, with eight sides, at the base, becomes circular starting from the quarter its length (145 mm), which was increased of almost 20 mm.

On these weapons are reproduced the punch test of Liege - ELG on star in an oval and usual punches of control - crowned Letter.

One also notes on the illustrated weapon the presence of marks of British test at various places. Logo EL crowned being reproduced on the left side of the gun is perhaps that of Emile Lepage, manufacturer

of weapons in Liege of 1850 to 1872



(1) Whereas Constant-Joseph Degueldre is patentee three deposited in Belgium, on a purely individual basis.

(2) If a reader of this article were informed of a patent deposited in the name of Degueldre concerning this type of weapon in another country (England, France, Switzerland...), I would be grateful to him of me to make share of it.

* according to C GAIER, Cinq Siècles d’Armurerie Liégeoises – Editions du Perron 1996

Quoted:
Just to pass this on to anyone else who may have a severely rusted firearm. My father was given two pistols that were so rusted the actions would not budge. The shop said they were in house fires and then allowed to sit. The pistols were scaled with rust and when I first seen them I thought there was no hope of cleaning them up.

The method I used was electrolytic rust removal.

Here are a few guides:
Electrolytic rust removal PDF
Another short guide
A video

After using the same method we were able to read what make and model the pistols were. The actions worked other than the springs that were ruined in the fire. I used a 6 amp charger overnight with the solution.

I used washing soda rather than backing soda as mentioned in the video. Also, don't do this inside as it gives off hydrogen gas which is explosive.

Just a tip that might help others out
Dolomite

Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.

The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information. Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker to imagine that the light source is in the top left hand corner of the screen. De bossed or panelled marks show the depression in grey, with the original metal surface shown white (or transparent if shown against a grid).

The proof certificate is in Spanish, but the dimensions and tolerances are recognisable.

Where possible the drawings will be presented against a gridded background as shown at right. The red squares in the grid represent two millimetres, but the images themselves may not be to an exact scale, mainly because the depth to which the marks are punched and the angle at which the punch was held when it was struck will also affect the size and shape of the mark. I have tried to be consistent in the application of this grid as a background to the individual marks, so that sensible comparisons may be made. However in measuring a large number of marks, I have found variations as large a 20% in some cases, although the majority will fall within plus or minus 4% of the drawings. There is a further complication in that punches of different sizes are used according to the size of weapon and so you may have marks that do not agree with the measurements as displayed here.
 

In cases where I cannot be certain of relative sizings the grid will be omitted. The symbols have been gathered from a large number of sources including magazine and book illustrations, the drawings themselves are all my own work.

In some cases the pressure reached during proof is given rather than the service pressure for which the weapon is intended. It does not mean that a weapon can withstand such pressures repeatedly.

Gun Barrel Proof, or proof testing of firearms and the ammunition that is used in them is compulsory in the UK. It was brought about by reputable gun makers in order to establish the safety and integrity of the firearms concerned, thus giving protection to the user and establishing a quality standard.

British Proof Law as represented by the Gun Barrel Proof Acts of 1868, 1950 and 1978. The "Rules of Proof" are defined under the authority of these Acts. The "Rules of Proof 1954 & 1978" can be purchased from either of the London or Birmingham Proof Houses. The 1954 rules, which were originally approved by the then Ministry of Supply, came into effect on 1st February 1955 and xx dd ???? for the 1978 act, however Proof under the earlier Rules of 1875, 1887, 1896, 1904, 1916 and 1925 remains valid provided the weapon still conforms with the Proof Marks of the time in terms of dimensions of the bore, load, nature of propellant, and has not been materially altered in any vital aspect including such as chamber length, re-sleeving, chromium plating or any other form of metal deposition in the bore.

The "Rules of Proof" derive their authority from the Proof Act. They apply to all Small Arms, within certain limits of bore size and projectile weight, but do not include weapons made for the use of HM Forces. Proof Testing of these military weapons falls under the jurisdiction of the Directorate of Inspection of Arms who use their own Proof Marks.

The "Rules of Proof" do not apply to air weapons or other guns that do not use an explosive propellant cartridge.

Types of Proof fall into three divisions:-

(a) Provisional Proof.

(b) Definitive Proof.

(c) Special Definitive Proof.

Provisional Proof... This is mainly for the convenience of the gun trade. It is applied only to shot gun barrels and is intended to weed out non obvious faults and prevent the maker from wasting time and effort on a tube that is faulty. The gunmaker submits his tubes to the Proof House which deals with them in a manner described on the Proof Methods page. If they are satisfactory they are returned for the work to be continued.

Definitive Proof... All weapons must undergo this, either in the "white" or when fully finished.

Special Definitive Proof... This applies to weapons that are intended to be used with loads that develop pressures greater than the normal service loads expected with this type of weapon. This can be done either as the compulsory proof of a weapon that is deliberately designed for heavier than usual loads or as a result of a person wishing to use a heavier load in a weapon that was not originally proved to that standard.

Re-Proof is required after a gun has been proofed and used, but a change in condition or dimension may cause re-proof to be required. The most common causes of this are:-

•Increase in bore size or chamber length that causes the original proof to be invalidated.

•Enlargement of bore diameter in removal of pitting weakens barrels and is the most common cause of barrels becoming out of proof.

•Physical signs of failure or possible failure such as pitting of the barrel, cracking or bulging.

•Replacement of the barrel, re-sleeving, welding brazing or electrolytic deposition of any form including chromium or Nickel plating.

•Fitting a device such as a muzzle brake, if a rifle or a variable choke if a shot gun.

•Use of a propellant or load which produces a pressure in excess of that for which the firearm was designed. Particularly to the use of smokeless cartridges in a gun designed and proofed for black powder only.

Proof may be defined as the compulsory testing of every new firearm before sale. The purpose of the testing is to ensure that the purchaser and/or user of any shot gun, sporting rifle, pistol or any other weapon which uses a propellant cartridge, can do so with the clear knowledge that his/her firearm is safe to use with the defined "normal" load.

The word "compulsory" is used and this compulsion (in the UK) is provided by an Act of Parliament... In 1637 the Gunmakers of the City of London, usually known as the "Gunmakers Company of London", was granted a Royal Charter to protect the public against unsafe weapons being made and sold, the Company secured Ordinances in 1690 which enabled it to enforce "Proof" among its members in the London area. The other main manufacturing region was the area was around Birmingham and in 1813, at it's own expense, the Birmingham Gun Trade introduced a Parliamentary Bill setting up a Proof House to be operated by the "Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House ". Therefore, since 1813 at least, it has been a punishable offence both to sell or offer for sale (including auction) any unproved weapon in the United Kingdom. It is also an offence to export such a weapon or to pawn one. Penalties for such offences are imposed on a per barrel basis. Forging or altering a proof mark is considered a greater offence and carries heavier penalties.

The Firearms Act of 1868 (Section 122(4)) makes it an offence to import any small arm into the United Kingdom, unless it carries foreign proof marks that are accepted under reciprocal agreement, unless their arrival is notified to the Proof Master at London and Birmingham within seven days and/or they are submitted for Proof within 28 days. This ruling apparently does not apply to anyone who imports an unproved arm for his/her own personal use. While it remains his/her personal property it can be used unproofed. Whilst it may be legal to use such a weapon it would be foolhardy to use this loophole to avoid proof. For you own peace of mind... submit the weapon for British proof.

other rules

Reciprocal arrangements have been made by various countries:-

•Austria Austrian proof marks were accepted in the UK pre WW II, but only marks post January 1956, are now valid.

•Belgium... The specifically recognised marks of the Proof House at Liege only.

•Czechoslovakia... Marks of the Czech Proof Authorities have been recognised in Great Britain since 14th October 1963.

•France... Proof was optional in France prior to July 1960. Only specific, agreed, marks applied after that date are valid in the UK.

•Federal Republic of Germany... new marks from September 1955 are acceptable, but marks prior to that date are not now accepted.

•Italy... The current marks are accepted.

•Ireland... Irish proof is acceptable after 9th June 1969.

•Spain... Spanish proof is accepted.

The products of all other countries, including the United States of America, must be submitted for proof within 28 days of importation.

The marks of these foreign countries are only valid if the marks are the current version. Proof Marks on a foreign weapon should be compared with the illustrations in the "Notes on the Proof of Shot Guns and Other Small Arms" if you wish to be certain that a particular weapon is still "in proof".

Submission for Proof or Re-Proof... Anyone may send a weapon for proof at a Proof House, but this is not a good idea. Before the gun can be subjected to proof the action must be in good order and tight on the face and, if applicable, the head space must be correct because the proof process involves subjecting the gun to a greater pressure than that produced by the normal load. The barrels must be "struck up" with the bores smooth, pitting removed, bulges knocked down and dents raised. Undoubtedly the best procedure is to have a gunmaker carry out the preliminary work and then when he/she is convinced it is in adequate condition, for them to submit the weapon to the Proof House on behalf of the owner.

The Proof Master has the right to refuse any firearm for proof which cannot be viewed adequately to reveal defects or be safely loaded and fired with a Proof Load.

There are four classes of Small Arms Proof:-

First Class... Smooth bore breech loading guns of 4 bore or smaller.

Second Class... Rifled breech loading weapons discharging shot or bullet.

Third Class... Pistols with barrel length less than 14 inches, but otherwise as Second Class.

Fourth Class... All other firearms and all other devices that use black powder or other propellant, as well as any items declared to be "arms" by the Proof Master or by the person requesting proof.

Viewing... When a firearm is submitted for Proof the first stage of the procedure is known as "viewing". A weapon which does not satisfy the Proof House viewers is ruled not to be in a fit condition for rest of the Proof process.

The viewing procedure is as follows:-

•The weapon is classified, i.e., it is allocated to one of the four classes.

•It is visually inspected for defects and the straightness of the barrel(s) is checked.

•Weapons of the first class and long barrelled weapons of the 4th class are bore gauged at 9 inches from the breech face and the bore diameter is taken as that corresponding to the largest gauge which will enter to that point. If the diameter does not lie within prescribed limits the arm is rejected.

•Measurements are taken of chamber dimensions, as given in the diagram below:-



each of which must lie within prescribed limits. The dimensions quoted in the "Rules of Proof" are for finished chambers. To allow for polishing after Proof the minimum figures of dimensions A, B or C are read as if they were 0.003" less.

•Weapons of the 2nd and 3rd classes are also gauged. The length of the chamber, each diameter of the chamber(s) of the barrel(s) and in a revolver each chamber of the cylinder must lie within the prescribed limits.

•Weapons of 4th class present a number of problems due to the wide variety of weapons involved. These can range from a muzzle loading punt gun to a humane killer. In general smooth bore barrels are gauged 9 inches from the breech face to determine the bore diameter, but if the barrel is less than 9 inches long it is gauged at the muzzle.

•The final procedure of "viewing" is a further inspection and further gauging after the Proof Load has been fired. If visual inspection reveals a defect or if gauging shows expansion beyond the dimensions permitted the weapon is condemned.

Proof Firing... The purpose of a proof load is to subject the chamber and barrel to a pressure which exceeds that which will be encountered in normal use. Similarly the action face, or in the case of a bolt closure, the bolt face, experiences a pressure in excess of that normally met. There are two distinct safety effects of this procedure.

First if the barrel or chamber is weak or flawed, the excess pressure will reveal that fact under controlled and "safe" conditions rather than have a failure or accident occur in the field.

Secondly, the application of excess pressure places the material of the chamber and barrel in compression.