AR180B or KelTec SU-16?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR180B or KelTec SU-16?

Posted: 6/10/2003 2:34:37 PM EDT

I ended up hocking my Bushmaster Shorty a few months ago (joys of unemployment) but things *might* soon be looking up, financially. I know this is blasphemy on ARFCom but, frankly, that whole gas-into-the-chamber thing was pissing me off anyway.

I'm pretty happy with my Mini-14 as a knock-around carbine but the mag situation kind of sucks. On paper, both an AR180B and the new SU-16 look pretty good. Affordable, gas piston, takes USGI AR15 mags. The big comparative downside to the SU-16 is that it's an unknown - production models haven't hit yet, so I don't know what to expect for reliability and accuracy. The big plus is that it folds in half.

Input, advice, other suggestions?

Posted: 6/10/2003 2:39:31 PM EDT

[#1]

180b, no question. Superior.

Posted: 6/10/2003 3:47:41 PM EDT

[#2]

Love my -180B.

Posted: 6/10/2003 3:54:55 PM EDT

[#3]

AR-180B

Posted: 6/10/2003 4:09:25 PM EDT

[#4]

Got the 180b, now I'm waiting on this SU-16 to show up. Soon as it does I'm sure I'll plop down the 600 bucks for it, you can never have too many new guns in the collection.. :)

Posted: 6/10/2003 4:33:15 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Got the 180b, now I'm waiting on this SU-16 to show up. Soon as it does I'm sure I'll plop down the 600 bucks for it, you can never have too many new guns in the collection.. :)

BuLLet, you had a chance to shoot your AR-180B as yet ?? If so how do you like it ??

Posted: 6/10/2003 5:14:47 PM EDT

[#6]

Yes I did. I had some problems with the mag catch. Last round was not getting fed and when it did it wasn't locking the bolt open after firing. Apparently the mag catch is the issue. It's a tad larger then on an ar and the spring seems a bit stronger. I think once I get a couple hundred rounds through it it'll work itself out.

Posted: 6/10/2003 5:54:18 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Yes I did. I had some problems with the mag catch. Last round was not getting fed and when it did it wasn't locking the bolt open after firing. Apparently the mag catch is the issue. It's a tad larger then on an ar and the spring seems a bit stronger. I think once I get a couple hundred rounds through it it'll work itself out.

Agree re the couple of hundred rounds to shoot in - I believe the AR-10(T)'s take about 500 rounds to achieve max accuracy. The break-in period is an often, too often, overlooked part of owning any new gun. (Had a Glock rep tell me years ago that Glock considered 500 rounds the minimum to consider their pistols as broke-in.)

FrankSquid (AR Forum Mod) has also received and is shooting his AR-180B - really likes it.

Posted: 6/10/2003 6:14:06 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
FrankSquid (AR Forum Mod) has also received and is shooting his AR-180B - really likes it.

Yes I shot his last year.. :)

Posted: 6/10/2003 6:22:34 PM EDT

[#9]

Um... so I guess you're all saying you aren't sure, then?

Just kidding, obviously. Thanks.

Posted: 6/11/2003 9:56:15 PM EDT

[#10]

A buddy of mine works down the road at Kel-Tec and brought over a SU-16 to play with. We put around 300 rounds through it and I was extremely impressed. . . so much so that I will be buying one of the first production models! Nice balance, very accurate, and the bipod-handguard is waaay cool!

I have shot several AR-18B's as well, but I'm not thinking of buying one, so you know what my vote is!

Posted: 6/11/2003 11:27:25 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

I have shot several AR-18B's as well, but I'm not thinking of buying one, so you know what my vote is!

Yes, a person who has "shot several AR-18B's as well........" is extreeeemely well connected and should be listened to !!

Posted: 6/12/2003 12:42:53 AM EDT

[#12]

Keith...do not sweat the direct gas system...it is NOT that big of a problem....leaving the AR out of the equation is really limiting your choices. The AR is superior to both of the weapons you listed (IMHO) and is a very time tested design. Now if that AR180B was made of metal through and through and had a chrome lined barrel...THAT WOULD be some competition.

Choose what you like but keep your options open.

Posted: 6/13/2003 8:26:30 PM EDT

[#13]

One thing to keep in mind: Kel-Tec quality control absolutely sucks. In comparison, nearly every "best AR mfg'er" list in existence has Armalite near the top.

I ordered a Kel-Tec Sub carbine once. When it came in, the barrel was bent like a macaroni noodle! Thankfully, the gun shop sent it back, and I didn't lose any $ on it. Later I bought one of their famed P11 pistols. I was very happy the day I unloaded that POS. I'll never buy another Kel-Tec product.

Go with the AR-180B!

- Carbine_Man

Posted: 6/14/2003 6:06:15 AM EDT

[#14]

Armalite M15...now that truly IS a sweet shooter.

Posted: 6/16/2003 11:54:24 AM EDT

[#15]

Check the armalite forum for folks who give a DIFFERENT opinion of the 180b...

Posted: 6/16/2003 12:18:12 PM EDT

[#16]

Was in a gunshop in northern Minnesota while on vacation. Not looking for anything in particular, just wasting time. Guy brings in what is obviously a rifle box. Inside is an Ar 180, broke in half. Not disassembled, broken. The receiver was in pieces. Guy said he "dropped it" and it broke. Guys at the counter didn't seem to perturbed about, said they would send back to Armalite and see what happens.

I've done a lot things to guns over the years. Dropped more than my share of them. I've bent sight blades more than once. Dinged the leaf on rear sights a time or two. But I ain't never broken a gun in pieces.

Posted: 6/16/2003 1:32:44 PM EDT

[#17]

I have 2 Kel-Tec pistols and love them waiting for my sub 2000 to come in and if its any thing like the pistols it will be a keeper.

Posted: 6/16/2003 2:33:41 PM EDT

[#18]

Well, this IS AR15.com, after all, so...

GET BOTH!!!

That's what I plan to do...

Posted: 6/16/2003 2:50:27 PM EDT

[#19]

love my ar180b!!!!!!!

Posted: 6/16/2003 5:53:05 PM EDT

[#20]

ALTHOUGH I AM AN AR-15/M-16 LOVER MYSELF, THE 180B IS A GOOD SHOOTING WEAPON. FOLLOW AR'S BREAK IN PROCEDURE AND THE $ 600.00 GOODY WILL KAATN'S ALL DAY LONG. IT SHOOTS BETTER THAN THE AR-18 CM, STERRLING, OR THE HOWA AND EXCEPTS A LOT OF AR-15 PARTS AND MAGS.. FROM ZIP TO 100 YARDS I CAN BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF IT AND IT KEEPS ON TICKING. IT SAVES ONES HIGH DOLLAR PREBANDS (LOWER RECEIVERS WHERE THE CHARGING HANDLE EATS THE STOCK JOINT). WITH THE FIRST 500 ROUNDS IT LIKES TO BE A HARD ASS BUT WHEN BROKEN IN TAKES MAGS MY AR-15'S HATE.
HAPPY SHOOTING

Posted: 6/17/2003 6:23:04 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Was in a gunshop in northern Minnesota while on vacation. Not looking for anything in particular, just wasting time. Guy brings in what is obviously a rifle box. Inside is an Ar 180, broke in half. Not disassembled, broken. The receiver was in pieces. Guy said he "dropped it" and it broke. Guys at the counter didn't seem to perturbed about, said they would send back to Armalite and see what happens.

I've done a lot things to guns over the years. Dropped more than my share of them. I've bent sight blades more than once. Dinged the leaf on rear sights a time or two. But I ain't never broken a gun in pieces.

Ameshawki,
I'm the mod down in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum and I try to keep track of any AR-180B's that have had lower failures. To date, there have ben two (2) AR-180B's that have experienced lower failures. However, ArmaLite wants to locate and replace the lowers in the entire batch of ninety where they suspect the receivers were out-of-spec and have posted those serial numbers in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum.

Posted: 6/17/2003 7:01:27 AM EDT

[#22]

The SU 16 is cool,innovative and cheap. The 180B isn't.

Posted: 6/17/2003 1:27:39 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Was in a gunshop in northern Minnesota while on vacation. Not looking for anything in particular, just wasting time. Guy brings in what is obviously a rifle box. Inside is an Ar 180, broke in half. Not disassembled, broken. The receiver was in pieces. Guy said he "dropped it" and it broke. Guys at the counter didn't seem to perturbed about, said they would send back to Armalite and see what happens.

I've done a lot things to guns over the years. Dropped more than my share of them. I've bent sight blades more than once. Dinged the leaf on rear sights a time or two. But I ain't never broken a gun in pieces.

Ameshawki,
I'm the mod down in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum and I try to keep track of any AR-180B's that have had lower failures. To date, there have ben two (2) AR-180B's that have experienced lower failures. However, ArmaLite wants to locate and replace the lowers in the entire batch of ninety where they suspect the receivers were out-of-spec and have posted those serial numbers in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum.

Interesting. I wasn't following the episode to closely, I was there to buy fishing tackle. Perhaps it was one the defective ones. Sounded like Armalite was going to get a goo look at it. To bad really, I happen to think 180's are kind of neat looking. I have no use for one, but it was on the kind of like to have someday list.

By the way the northern fishing was outstanding . Limited out one day in about 30 minutes.

Posted: 6/17/2003 2:26:59 PM EDT

[#24]

So, how accurate is the ar180b?

Posted: 6/17/2003 7:23:55 PM EDT

[#25]

The Kel Tec should be under $500 out the door when they start shipping. Our store is going to sell them for $438 if I remember right. I check status on them every week, but none available yet.

Posted: 6/18/2003 1:42:29 AM EDT

[#26]

Mmm, more toys to consider. Love the feel of the 180. I just cant get it out of my head that the SU-16 is a rifle, and the SUU-16 is the old Soviet 30mm gun pod they fixed to MiG-21s and some -25s.

Dont like the sporting rifle look of the 16 though, a gun with a high cap stuck in her doesnt look right with a hunting rifle stock....IMHO.

Posted: 6/20/2003 10:31:22 AM EDT

[#27]

Holy cow! Don't check a post for a few days and look what happens....

Thanks for all the replies, folks. Some quick points: Desertmoon, I'll definitely add an AR back into the safe eventually but that carbon *was* a PITA to scrub out. I do my maintenance because it needs to get done but anything that makes it easier/quicker between sessions makes me happy. Carbine_Man, I know it's apples-vs-oranges but my P32 has been chewing up & spitting out (accurately, btw

) all sorts of ammo without any problems or bobbles. None of that fluff-&-buff BS, either. Hopefully, their QA now translates to rifles or my luck holds. Either way.

NickFury, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Give KeithC a job and he'll buy both. TACO, the money sounds good - so long as I don't double it with shipping for QA probs, etc. Not that I'm expecting any, just being practical. RebelGray, sporting rifle with a hi-cap, huh? Sounds like KelTec came up with the .223 American answer to the SKS.

I'm leaning towards the SU16 again, mostly because of current finances. No way I'm going to buy one without at least hefting it, though, so it may be awhile. With any luck, I'll then be bringing in enough to *also* get a 180B... and maybe another Bushy... and....

Expect a range report, regardless.

Posted: 6/20/2003 11:34:29 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
...NickFury, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Give KeithC a job and he'll buy both...

Sorry, man. I would never kick a man when he's down - I thought you were already on the road to "fiscal recovery." No ill will intended, I swear! Best of luck!

Posted: 6/20/2003 11:51:01 AM EDT

[#29]

Awww, can ya feel the love?

Posted: 6/20/2003 2:31:21 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Awww, can ya feel the love?

A healthy, MANLY love of guns, nothing more...

...now move along, nothing here to see...

Posted: 6/20/2003 3:07:05 PM EDT

[#31]

No worries, Nick, and thanks for the consideration. This is a fine example of the camaraderie and support that ARF... ah, geez, I said I wouldn't do this.... <sniff>. You guys are just... awesome, man.

Now I gotta log off, eat some red meat - rare - get likkered up, cheat on my wife and beat the snot out of a police horse. Or something butch.

Posted: 6/23/2003 7:54:49 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Hopefully, their QA now translates to rifles or my luck holds...(snip)... the money sounds good - so long as I don't double it with shipping for QA probs, etc. Not that I'm expecting any, just being practical.

Well, Kel-Tec may have finally figured out how to build pistols, but when it comes to a centerfire rifle I'm not exactly going to be in the front ranks when they hit the shelves. I really like the concept and am excited about the SU-16, but I can't help remembering the problems I had with my early P11.

Besides, my gun shop finally has an AR-180B in the rack. I don't know how long I am going to be able to resist it. Then again they have an Armalite AR-15 flattop for $770 on the other side of the case that may help keep me in a perpetual state of indecision until the SU-16 arrives, so who knows?

Posted: 6/29/2003 1:29:45 AM EDT

[#33]

Any word on the accuracy of the SU-16? I've heard the Sub 2000 is about 6" at 100 yards but then again its a pistol caliber carbine. Any idea if the SU-16 is going to be accurate enought to make it useful as something other then a short range plinker?

Posted: 6/29/2003 6:50:42 AM EDT

[#34]

AR-180B - Enhancements YOU Want !!

There is an open topic down in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum asking for YOUR INPUT as to which enhancements, options, accessories, etc., YOU would like in future AR-180B's.

This topic will go directly to ArmaLite management when completed.

Posted: 6/29/2003 5:50:44 PM EDT

[#35]

How is the trigger on the KelTec? I've got a friend with one of their pistols that has the worst trigger on any pistol I've ever fired... I'm hesitant to put money on anything that says KelTec after firing that POS...

Posted: 6/30/2003 5:37:56 PM EDT

[#36]

A friend and I just got back from a gun store... I picked up an AR180B that had come in for me and he bought a keltec 32 pistol.

He fired the keltec at the shop. The trigger doesn't reset after the shot. You have to cycle the action again to get the trigger back into action.

As we left the shop I commented that I didn't know who got the bigger POS... him or me. This AR180b looks like a total piece of crap. The slop between the upper and lower is much worse than any original AR180 I rember ever handling. Additionally the safety feels like there's no detent at all... It may shoot fine (haven't tried it yet) but it seems to leave a lot to be desired in fit/finsh.

Posted: 7/1/2003 4:30:10 AM EDT

[#37]

I am no great fan of the AR180, but it is still LIGHT YEARS better than that kel-tech POS.

Stick with the AR 180...

Posted: 7/1/2003 5:39:53 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I am no great fan of the AR180, but it is still LIGHT YEARS better than that kel-tech POS.

Stick with the AR 180...

Don't you love people who form an unyielding opinion about a product BEFORE it is even on the market?

Posted: 7/1/2003 9:35:01 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
AR-180B - Enhancements YOU Want !!

There is an open topic down in the AR-10 & AR-180 Forum asking for YOUR INPUT as to which enhancements, options, accessories, etc., YOU would like in future AR-180B's.

This topic will go directly to ArmaLite management when completed.

Still need more input.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR180B or KelTec SU-16?

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