This is my first time in the world of suppressors and SBRs and getting ready to do both.  I've read around looking for answers before posting, but still hard to find exact yes or no to this...I've read some people listed it while others didn't.
Is it necessary to have in the Trust?  I am puzzled because you need to submit the Trust in order to start the process, and how can you get the trust created first without knowing which silencer or SBR receiver S/N to put in the trust?
If I don't need to list it in there, I'm fine with that.  All I have is a $1 bill assigned in the trust at the moment...

Yes, the SBR or suppressor will belong to the trust.

Everything will need to be listed in whatever way your trust specifies. A trust that holds nome property will be kicked back.  If I am doing a form 1 I just assign whatever item to the trust by model number and serial.  Form 4 items get added after the stamp comes back.

I think you can add it at anytime. I think that most people wait until they received the approved stamp to add it to Schedule A. That's what I am going to do.

I have nothing except a $1 bill listed on my Schdeule A and was informed to do it this way by the lawyer who setup my trust.  No need to list it.  This might be a Texas thing by the way.

I am in TX.

Listing additional items on schedule A is optional on mine because the trust can own thing by either:

Listing them explicitely on schedule A

OR

By naming the trust as owner on forms.


But trust language may vary, so do what your lawyer says.

Mine is the exact same way, except it is funded by 1 round of 9mm.

My lawyer said I do not need to list anything in my schedule A, said I can if I want, but TN does not require it.

Haha, 1 round of 9mm. LOL. Mine is funded by a SC Edition $2 bill. But anything that is built has to be added to schedule A of my trust. I guess it just depends in the wording of your trust.

You add a dollar to fund the trust at the beginning, but you should be very clear what the trust says about property. Some trusts have blanket clauses stating all property owned by the grantor is held in trust, others require explicit assets.

You absolutely should keep a record of what assets belong to the trust, in and out.  You have to remember, a trust document is what the trustee has to go on after you are dead.  If you do not keep clean, thorough records of what the trust holds, then it will be a monster problem for those you leave behind.

As stated, a Form 1 implies you are converting an existing firearm into a Title II firearm, hence this host firearm should be a trust asset at the time you submit.

A Form 4 on the other hand requires gov't approval before it becomes a trust asset. To add a Form 4 firearm before approval is risky for the very same reason as stated above, it creates an inaccurate record of trust assets. If you add that Form 4 firearm before approval, then it implies the asset is already trust property and should be physically present somewhere.  A trustee may not know that the firearm is still in transfer, so when he cannot find, say, a machine gun that should be present somewhere at your house, then red phones and alarms can go off needlessly.

My initial trust had my suppressor listed as the only item when it was submitted in 2008 and it was approved.

Since then I had a new trust drawn up specifically for NFA purchases and it uses Assignment Sheets so upon submitting my trust with the Form 1 I included the assignment sheet for the lower.

Whether or not it is approved by ATF is not the point.  Keeping clear, concise trust documents is.

I don't know about legal requirements, but I just think it's smart to be able to produce your form 4's, your trust and a schedule A outlining all items contained in that trust.
Most police officers don't have a clue as to what they're looking at anyway, so the more "official looking" documents you can show them, the better.

Here's an informative blog post that my trust attorney penned earlier this year:

http://www.myguntrust.com/schedule-a-question.html

My trust does not use schedules for the reasons stated.  It really does pay to use an attorney who knows what he's doing to draft your trust documents...

SAB

I add the items to schedule A before I send it in, Because the items are bought and paid for.  I just don't have possession yet.

"Bought and paid for" does not equate any ownership in this case.  You do not have any ownership rights to the firearm until they approve the transaction.  Even if you paid in full, it is merely a down-payment pending transfer approval.  If ATF denies the transfer for some reason, then you are owed a refund of your money pursuant to any agreement you signed with the seller, but you have no ownership of the firearm.

This is why it's improper and misleading to add a Title II firearm as a trust asset prior to approval.

Here is the problem with that methodology.  If you die and the person named in the trust is supposed to dispose of the trust's assets, they cannot do so with the item that the trust does not legally own.

I've just read that article in the link you provided, in addition to everyone's comments here and appreciate all the information provided.  Some fellow TX members answered my exact concern about not listing nfa items on their trust and was still approved for the stamp(s). It appears my trust is set up similar to Collegeboy's and have $1 in the schedule just to have something of ownership to have a trust.  I do not want to list nfa items for similar privacy reasons as mentioned in that article; and based on a few replies, I can ammend and add in these items as necessary at a later time once I have real ownership of said items....did I understand that correctly?  

I disagree.  There is a difference between ownership rights and possessory rights.  While your SOT is holding a paid for NFA toy, you or your trust "owns" it.  You just can't
take possession of it.  If you didn't own it, then legally, someone else owns it and would have the rights of ownership.  T

For example, someone owns a house they lease to tenants.  The landlord owns the house (or more precisely, owns the fee simple interest).  The tenant likely has a leasehold
interest.  During the lease period, subject to the lease terms, the tenant can exercise full rights of possession, even excluding the landlord.  The fact that the renter can tell
the owner to leave the property, occupy the house, use it as a mailing address, etc doesn't mean the landlord doesn't own the house.  It just means that during the lease period,
the owner doesn't have the right of possession.

shedule a is NOT an inventory list.....

That's not remotely the same situation. A house you own can be collateralized for a loan, it can be sold. You have title to it.

You have neither posessory nor ownership rights here simply by paying for an NFA firearm. You don't have proper title without the registration. You can't sell, rent, loan, collateralize, even remove from gunshop without ATF approval.  Furthermore, most of these actions would result in felony violations.

It is very important if he wants the Form 4 to be approved.  If it isn't approved then the question of the Schedule A procedures is kind of moot isn't it?

I fail to see how the ATF can approve a Form 4 using a Trust unless the suppressor is actually owned by the Trust?

Isn't a Form 4 a transfer form?  So the trust won't actually own the item until the transfer is approved by the ATF is the way I understand it.

You're putting the cart before the horse. You have absolutely zero ownership rights to the suppressor until they approve it.  If it is denied for reasons other than clerical, then where do you think you (or your trust) are pursuant to "owning" that suppressor? You have no control over that suppressor in any way recognized under law as "ownership".

Correct

It is an inventory list, just not in perpetuity. It catalogs trust assets at the time the trust is created.

Schneecat did my trust and he has done a bunch for people on this forum. He told me that as you build your SBRs, etc they get listed in Schedule A.

As you said, it catalogs trust assets. If it only catalogs trust assets at the time the trust is created then how do the beneficiaries know what they get when the trust is executed? If stuff is added after the trust is created?

An assignment of property form is usually the way to add assets after execution of the trust.

Once you sign, date and notarize the original trust document, which the Schedule A is a part of, you shouldn't change that document by addition or subtraction or deletion.  Modifications to terms, trustees, beneficiaries, etc, need their own documentation as does property assigned or acquired after execution. If you start modifying the original document by pulling and reprinting updated pages, then you are making a convoluted mess for others to deal with.  This is how otherwise sound, clear grantor wishes become entangled in legal action after death.

Using the Schedule A as an evolving list of assets isn't the end of the world, but it does imply that listed assets were trust property upon execution rather than added later. After you are gone, if it ever becomes important in a legal proceeding to determine what assets the trust held on a certain date due to trustee or beneficiary changes, then using the Schedule A in this manner will make that impossible.

For example, if the trust lists a beneficiary or trustee that is later removed and he decides to sue the trust after your death, then it could becomes very important to determine what the value of the trust was at the time he was a beneficiary or trustee. A constantly modified Schedule A makes this difficult.

ETA:  It should be noted that state laws vary as to how to legally change a trust, so this is another reason why an attorney is a better option rather than software.

Is there an example of this form?  And the form is kept with the trust, but is not part of the trust correct?

 

Try googling it, you should get plenty of examples.  I would suggest contacting your attorney to make sure you cover state law as well. State law plays a big part in why some people do it one way while others do it another.

"Kept with the trust/ Not part of trust" is mostly semantics. The trust itself will grow in terms of paperwork over time as changes are made, so I think it's safe to say these modification documents become part of the trust since the current state of the trust is the sum total of all of these documents.

The process of adding to, and subtracting from, trust assets seems rather straightforward to me. One question I do have is if I have signed and dated by Schedule A upon creation of the trust and I choose to add to the Schedule A at a later date, I obviously fill out an addition form and sign/date it. Do I also sign and date an updated Schedule A?

My assumption on this is yes and to keep all previous versions of the Schedule A should anything be brought into question at a later date.

Sort of like keeping the release notes for previous software versions.

ncthorn1623,
It could be dependent upon how your trust is written.  Mine has explicit instructions on how, who and what is required to add/remove items from the Schedule A.

FWIW, when I submitted my two Forms(sent Oct 16, 2012, approved Apr 24 2013), I did NOT include my two items(suppressors) on my Schedule A.
The only thing I had listed was a $5 dollar bill, with serial number.

My dealer said that I should include the items, but from everything I read, I didn't technically "own" them yet, as I was waiting for ATF to approve me owning the items.  I had only paid for them thus far.
Everything was approved.  Items have been added to Schedule A

I have just recently(July 16 2013) submitted two Forms for sbrs, with a trust and did not list my two lowers in the Schedule A.  However I do own them, and they are in my possession.
I guess I'll find out what happens in about a year, lol

Turbotax seems to keep state tax law straight, and my trust software also creates state specific trusts.  It also covers amending the trust, and how to do it properly.  I think you tried the wrong trust software.

this is actually correct....

how does a corporation keep up with it's assets?  an inventory/capital assets list.....

i had my attorney add a beneficiary list for my trust "assets"...it is in effect trust's asset list....

Mine has $10, but the same thing. 9 stamps in 7 years and no static for not having anything other than that $10 on my schedule A.

Bob Howell did my trust.

I originally did not list my Suppressor on a Schedule A for my first application with a Trust. Got kicked back.

I do not put any items with their own paperwork in my schedule A.  NFA items with their own stamp do not go on their.  However if I choose to put anything else in the trust that does not have its own paperwork I do have to attach it to the schedule A.

This is the way the lawyer wrote the trust.  A simple hand drawn list is acceptable as a schedule A.

"Property which is normally titled or registered by filing a document with the state or local government shall be considered added to this trust when the correct documents have been filed and/or recorded that would normally constitute a transfer of ownership.  Any item that is not required to have a recorded title, registration or other document showing ownership shall be transferred to the trust by means of an attached Schedule A in the form of a simple list that identifies each item."

My trust also is not notarized.  Indiana just two witnesses are sufficient.  My lawyer prefers this incase of a dispute you can call up two witnesses in trials.

Even though a Class III dealer receives a deposit of money from a prospective buyer so that the Class III dealer will initiate the long approval process required to transfer ownership and possession of an NFA firearm to an actual "buyer," no "sale" of an NFA firearm may take place, or does take place, until after the Class III dealer receives an approved Form 4 bearing a cancelled National Firearms Act stamp from the ATF.  Since there is no "sale," there is no seller or buyer.  Only after the actual sale has occurred (which is immediately preceded by the buyer's completion of an ATF Form 4473) would the buyer have any ownership of and right to possess the NFA firearm.  The deposit is nothing more than an incentive for the Class III dealer to initiate the transfer process with a prospective buyer so that the Class III dealer can guarantee payment by the buyer if the ATF approves the application to transfer.

A Deposit is Not a Sale.

Pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5812(a) and 27 C.F.R. § 479.84, an NFA firearm must not be "transferred" by the transferor (seller) to the transferee (buyer) until an application to transfer (ATF Form 4) is approved by the ATF.  The term "transfer" is defined in 26 U.S.C. § 5845 and 27 C.F.R. § 479.11 to include "selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of."  ATF Form 4 states on its face that it is "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm."  Pursuant to 27 C.F.R. § 479.86, only after the approved Form 4 bearing a cancelled National Firearms Act stamp is returned to the transferor (seller) may the transferor then "transfer" the NFA firearm and the approved Form 4 to the transferee (buyer).  Clearly, no sale occurs until after the Class III dealer receives the approved ATF tax stamp from the ATF.

A Deposit is Not a Right to Possess.

Pursuant to 27 C.F.R. § 479.86, approval of the Form 4 by the ATF effectuates registration of the NFA firearm to the transferee (buyer).  Pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5812(b) and 27 C.F.R. § 479.86, the transferee (buyer) of an NFA firearm must not take possession of the NFA firearm until the application to transfer is approved.  Clearly, a buyer has no right to possess until the approved ATF tax stamp exists.

A Deposit is Part of the Class III Dealer's Incentive to Initiate the Transfer Process.

Class III dealers invest their capital to maintain inventories of NFA firearms for sale.   A prospective buyer approaches a Class III dealer and decides to buy an NFA firearm from inventory.  If an application to transfer (Form 4) is filed, then the Class III dealer may not sell the NFA firearm for which the application to transfer was filed to any other prospective buyer.  Further, the Class III dealer is required to incur the expense of storing the NFA firearm while the parties wait for the ATF to approve the Form 4.   Moreover, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5811(c) and 27 C.F.R. § 479.82, the transferor (seller) pays the $200 transfer tax.  Assuming the ATF approves the application to transfer, the dealer receives the approved tax stamp from the ATF, the buyer passes the background check performed in conjunction with ATF Form 4473, the Class III dealer needs to be certain that he/she will actually be paid for handling their part of the transaction.  At this point, the last thing the Class III dealer wants is a buyer who has changed their mind or can no longer afford to buy the NFA firearm.  Clearly, the Class III dealer requires a deposit so that they can guarantee payment by the buyer if the ATF approves the application to transfer.  The deposit is nothing more than an incentive for the Class III dealer to initiate the transfer process with a prospective buyer so that the Class III dealer can guarantee payment by the buyer if the ATF approves the application to transfer.

My trust was built off of the will maker template, but I plan on taking it to a lawyer for further revision at some point (added beneficiaries (kids at some point), etc.).  On my schedule A, I placed One US dollar for the property.  I also have an assignment sheet that is dated and signed by myself which also has the $1 listed.  I have my first NFA item submitted.  Once approved, do I need to edit, add the lower, and resign and date the assignment sheet?  Or do I need to make an amendment page for the assignment sheet and include both in my trust from that point on?  I will not be adding or amending my schedule A.

Hello Jim,  it's good to see you on this forum.  Just want to let you know that the trust you did for me now has two suppressors (thru the Silencer Shop) and two SBRs assigned to it.  I did the Assignment to Trust forms for the SBR receivers when I submitted the form 1s, and for the form 4s I did it just after I received the stamp.  I just picked up a can at SS on Wednesday and got the Assignment form notarized yesterday.  I hope I am doing this the way you instructed.

Hope to see you on here often.  We can use all the legal advise we can get.

Hi there!  It sounds like your collection is coming along very well, and you thoroughly understand the ATF's application process.  For ATF Form 1 applications, I now use their online filing system located at www.atfonline.gov.  It's a little confusing the first time, but you can upload an Adobe pdf copy of your gun trust and pay the $200 tax with a debit or credit card.  If you have any questions about it, please do not hesitate to call me.

Jim Willi
www.myguntrust.com