Settle this for me....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Settle this for me....

Posted: 12/4/2007 2:50:44 AM EDT

Paveway_ and I are having a discussion in GD regarding whether it is legal to pull the butt-stock off of an AR with a collapsible butt stock (so just the tube remains) and shoot it as a pistol. I say no, since by definition, a pistol has a) a pistol grip, and b) no buttstock, and you cannot 'make a pistol out of a rifle'.

So..what do you say...legal or no?

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:19:25 PM EDT

[#1]

a pistol can become a rifle, but not the other way around

Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44
§ 921. Definitions

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:19:35 PM EDT

[#2]

Not legal. You could easily put the stock back on it. I would recommend buying the pistol tube. It is better safe than sorry

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:19:52 PM EDT

[#3]

it would still be a rifle, a pistol would let you have a short barrel, even then i think you have to use a round tube with no attachement points for a stock like a carbine tube has.

ETA: youd have to register it as a pistol lower, i think, in order to go with the shorter barrel. The carbine tube makes it a no go

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:25:27 PM EDT

[#4]

So you pull the collapsable stock off the rifle. If the barrel is still rifle length, it must still be a rifle. Yes?

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:27:53 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
So you pull the collapsable stock off the rifle. If the barrel is still rifle length, it must still be a rifle. Yes?

By definition, a rifle has a) a rifled barrel, b) a butt-stock....so I personally don't think so, which is why I'm arguing that pulling the butt-stock off of a rifle makes it a pistol, which has a) a pistol grip, and b) no butt stock and thus is illegal since you can make a pistol a rifle, but not a rifle a pistol.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:35:59 PM EDT

[#6]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to do this, but I'll play.
I would not think it would attract negative attention from law enforcement unless one shortened the barrel.

Quoted:

Quoted:
So you pull the collapsable stock off the rifle. If the barrel is still rifle length, it must still be a rifle. Yes?

By definition, a rifle has a) a rifled barrel, b) a butt-stock....so I personally don't think so, which is why I'm arguing that pulling the butt-stock off of a rifle makes it a pistol, which has a) a pistol grip, and b) no butt stock and thus is illegal since you can make a pistol a rifle, but not a rifle a pistol.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:42:16 PM EDT

[#7]

Yeah once a rifle, always a rifle. You can take an AR pistol and change it into a rifle and back and forth as you like however. But you can't make an AR rifle into a pistol.

Posted: 12/3/2007 10:13:38 PM EDT

[#8]

And you must remove the buttstock before putting a short pistol barrel on.

Posted: 12/3/2007 10:21:58 PM EDT

[#9]

Based on how the 'other' thread went, I'm completely wrong...you can pull the butt-stock off your AR rifle and shoot it as a pistol all day long and it's not illegal. When people say "you cannot make a pistol out of a rifle", it has nothing to do with the actual configuration of the gun, it's about what can be defined on paper. Despite all I've read here on ARFCOM, I apparently don't know shit about these laws....good thing they're so easy to follow so people don't accidentally screw themselves into a felony.

Posted: 12/3/2007 11:27:31 PM EDT

[#10]

Is there an overall minimal length on rifles like there is shotties?

Is it true that you can not put a VFG on a pistol?

Posted: 12/3/2007 11:50:12 PM EDT

[#11]

Why do people ask this in the AR forum?

Ask the NFA questions in the NFA forum. The guys who have done it, and deal with these matters hang out there.

The simple answer is that once a gun is a rifle, it will always be classified as a rifle.
If you take the stock off your rifle and shoot it like a pistol, it is still a rifle.
If you find that difficult to shoot (and looks stupid), you could put a shorter barrel on.
If the barrel is less than 16", you have made a short barreled rifle (SBR).
If you didn't first ask permission and pay a tax you are in deep shit.

If you have a pistol AR, and want to shoot it like a rifle, you can add a long barrel THEN put a stock on it. Failure to do this in the proper order creates a SBR and you are in deep shit.

Posted: 12/3/2007 11:53:43 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Is there an overall minimal length on rifles like there is shotties?

Is it true that you can not put a VFG on a pistol?

YES. Rifles and shotguns are limited to OAL of 26". Yes, the barrel lengths are different, but OAL is the same. This allowed 16" lever guns and pack rifles to be non-nfa. The original length was going to be 18" for all long guns. (Pistols were going to be NFA too).

In a somewhat odd readign of the law, the ATF has decreed that a VFG turns a pistol into an AOW. You can have it, but you must make your pistol into an AOW first. I recommend having your friendly NFA manufacturer do it since it costs less.

Posted: 12/4/2007 12:15:12 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is there an overall minimal length on rifles like there is shotties?

Is it true that you can not put a VFG on a pistol?

YES. Rifles and shotguns are limited to OAL of 26". Yes, the barrel lengths are different, but OAL is the same. This allowed 16" lever guns and pack rifles to be non-nfa. The original length was going to be 18" for all long guns. (Pistols were going to be NFA too).

In a somewhat odd readign of the law, the ATF has decreed that a VFG turns a pistol into an AOW. You can have it, but you must make your pistol into an AOW first. I recommend having your friendly NFA manufacturer do it since it costs less.

Thanks,man.

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid some of these laws are.

If our government was half as creative with securing our borders, as they are with these firearm laws, I might not have to "press 1 for english" every time I call them.

Posted: 12/4/2007 12:45:24 AM EDT

[#14]

I do not think that pulling the buttstock off of a rifle automatically makes it a pistol. If that were the case, why would THESE be sold as rifles? Their buttstocks are designed to be readily detached. I would think that if detaching the buttstock of a rifle turned it into a pistol, then a rifle with a buttstock that was designed to be detached quickly and easily would not be sold. Just my $.02.

Posted: 12/4/2007 12:50:20 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I do not think that pulling the buttstock off of a rifle automatically makes it a pistol. If that were the case, why would THESE be sold as rifles? Their buttstocks are designed to be readily detached. I would think that if detaching the buttstock of a rifle turned it into a pistol, then a rifle with a buttstock that was designed to be detached quickly and easily would not be sold. Just my $.02.

It doesn't. Once a rifle, always a rifle.

Posted: 12/4/2007 6:09:12 AM EDT

[#16]

You're right. He's wrong.

Next question...

Posted: 12/4/2007 6:09:46 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Is it true that you can not put a VFG on a pistol?

If you put a VFG on a pistol it becomes an unregistered NFA item.....(AOW)

Posted: 12/4/2007 8:15:10 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
In a somewhat odd readign of the law, the ATF has decreed that a VFG turns a pistol into an AOW.

The law says:

- handgun = rifled barrel and designed to be held in one hand.
- rifle = rifled barrel and designed to be fired from the shoulder.
- shotgun = fired from shoulder, can't remember how they define the barrel
- rifle and shotgun have minimum barrel length adn minium overall length requirements. Anything shorter is an NFA item that must have the tax paid.
- anything with a bore larger than .500" is a destructive device unless it is deemed to be suitable for sporting purposes.
- any of the above that can fire more than one shot per action of the trigger are a "machinegun" regardless of any other specifications.
- Then there is "Any Other Weapon" which is the misc column for anything that doesn't fit the above criteria.

If you have an AR "pistol" with a vertical foregrip then it isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder so it can't be a rifle but it has two grips so it isn't designed to be held in one hand and isn't a pistol. Therefore it drops into the misc column and is taxed as an AOW. At least that's ATF's logic.

Posted: 12/4/2007 9:47:50 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
In a somewhat odd readign of the law, the ATF has decreed that a VFG turns a pistol into an AOW.

The law says:

- handgun = rifled barrel and designed to be held in one hand.
- rifle = rifled barrel and designed to be fired from the shoulder.
- shotgun = fired from shoulder, can't remember how they define the barrel
- rifle and shotgun have minimum barrel length adn minium overall length requirements. Anything shorter is an NFA item that must have the tax paid.
- anything with a bore larger than .500" is a destructive device unless it is deemed to be suitable for sporting purposes.
- any of the above that can fire more than one shot per action of the trigger are a "machinegun" regardless of any other specifications.
- Then there is "Any Other Weapon" which is the misc column for anything that doesn't fit the above criteria.

If you have an AR "pistol" with a vertical foregrip then it isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder so it can't be a rifle but it has two grips so it isn't designed to be held in one hand and isn't a pistol. Therefore it drops into the misc column and is taxed as an AOW. At least that's ATF's logic.

Yeah, see that's the stupid part. Adding a VFG does not preclude the shooter from using one hand. Most handguns are fired with two hands anyway. Finally, with that reading, I am surprised they haven't ruled that pistols with forends and barrel shrouds are AOW's too...

Keep in mind that ATF has never had to defend this little regulation in front of a judge or jury, or had never successfully done so.

You might win, but it will cost a lot of money to counter the infinite resources of the ATF, and you do so at your own risk.

Posted: 12/4/2007 10:33:19 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Yeah once a rifle, always a rifle. You can take an AR pistol and change it into a rifle and back and forth as you like however. But you can't make an AR rifle into a pistol.

Wrong
Once in rifle configuration, it must always be a rifle

Posted: 12/4/2007 10:51:22 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah once a rifle, always a rifle. You can take an AR pistol and change it into a rifle and back and forth as you like however. But you can't make an AR rifle into a pistol.

Wrong
Once in rifle configuration, it must always be a rifle

What? see the TC case.

Posted: 12/4/2007 10:55:38 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah once a rifle, always a rifle. You can take an AR pistol and change it into a rifle and back and forth as you like however. But you can't make an AR rifle into a pistol.

Wrong
Once in rifle configuration, it must always be a rifle

And so it continues....

Posted: 12/4/2007 1:13:25 PM EDT

[#23]

Once a rifle, not always a rifle.

You can make a title I rifle into a title I pistol by filing a form 1, and paying a $200 tax.

Or, if it was a pistol first, it can be a rifle, then a pistol, then a rifle again.