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Posted: 2/12/2015 5:41:35 AM EDT
[#1]
OAL must be at least 26"
the standard mossberg grips will not make more than 25" thus would make it an AOW. |
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Posted: 2/12/2015 7:49:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Been looking at a Mossberg 500 shotgun that has a 14" barrel and a somewhat straight style short "stump" type grip... Its nothing like a standard Mossberg pistol grip, but something I've seen on older short barreled Remington shotguns from the 80s and 90s. The guy says its totally legal since it has never had a stock fixed to it or can one be placed on it unless swapping out the barrel for an 18" one. With that said and if its true, would it be legal to replace the "stump" like grip with a standard Mossberg shotgun pistol grip and keep it with the 14" barrel? Thanks!! Like this? http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=14 And 2nd the answer that no the factory Mossberg grip brings it under 26" and is an AOW. However I have the Raptor grip and it is easier to shoot with it. It changes the way you grip and reduces the recoil effect as your hand is not under the bore but almost in line with it. |
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Posted: 2/12/2015 10:42:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Seems legit...
You can find youtube videos of guys shooting 18" barreled shotguns using this grip, and it does appear to manage recoil better than a pistol grip. I hope everyone resists the urge to mail the Bee Ay Tee Ef and ask if it is legal at 26.5." Just saying.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2015 11:17:35 AM EDT
[#4]
Has anyone ever attached a Knoxx Breachersgrip to see what the OAL would be with a 14" barrel? It appears a little longer than the standard Mossberg pistol grip, but I'm not sure it would make it long enough to get to 26" OAL.
http://blackhawk.com/Products/Stocks-Long-Gun-Accessories/Stocks/Shotgun/Knoxx%C2%AE-BreachersGrip%E2%84%A2.aspx |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:20:07 PM EDT
[#5]
That style grip is affectionately referred to as a "bird's head"
AOW and SBS are both NFA. One distinction alluded to by the OP is that an AOW has to begin life that way. You cannot "convert" a shotgun into an AOW from a legal perspective and you cannot sport a stock on an AOW. With an SBS you can rock a pistol grip or butt stock. NFA SBS below. This coincidentally came with a 12" barrel that looks quite good with a PG on it. 
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Posted: 2/15/2015 5:40:07 PM EDT
[#6]
A Mossberg 500 is 16 inches cut even with the barrel nut.
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Posted: 3/11/2015 3:48:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems legit... You can find youtube videos of guys shooting 18" barreled shotguns using this grip, and it does appear to manage recoil better than a pistol grip. I hope everyone resists the urge to mail the Bee Ay Tee Ef and ask if it is legal at 26.5." Just saying.... Resists the urge???  I build these all the time and they come with ATF tech branch letters already stating they are perfectly legal.
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Posted: 3/15/2015 2:59:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Good info here. Now just need to find a factory pistol grip shottie.
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Posted: 3/15/2015 8:15:47 PM EDT
[#9]
 " />
This is mine with the Shockwave grip. Originally a PGO with the 18.5" breacher barrel. I wanted to either chop barrel or go with the 14" front end. It actually shoots real well with breacher acting as a muzzle break. I can shoot full power 00 buck and slugs with little kick. total length is 30.75" 26.5" at the end of the magazine/barrel "connector" 27.5" at the end of magazine cap. |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 12:39:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Does the PGO factory shottie need to transfer to you on a 4473 as "Other"? I would think that it would, and you need to find an FFL willing so transfer it as such. I'd also want a copy of the 4473 showing this. These guns are cool, but you really need to be careful to avoid NFA territory.
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Posted: 3/17/2015 1:09:17 PM EDT
[#11]
PGO shotties HAVE to transfer as "other" because they are restricted sale to age 21 and older. FFL's are required to log them as "pistol grip firearm" by law because they do not fit the GCA definition of a shotgun or pistol. Also the manufacturer has to specify that in their records and most put "pistol grip" in the model type on packaging.
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Posted: 3/17/2015 5:03:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PGO shotties HAVE to transfer as "other" because they are restricted sale to age 21 and older. FFL's are required to log them as "pistol grip firearm" by law because they do not fit the GCA definition of a shotgun or pistol. Also the manufacturer has to specify that in their records and most put "pistol grip" in the model type on packaging. Awesome! Didn't know that, but it's good news. Thanks! ETA: one other question, although I'm fairly sure the answer is "no": if you purchase a used shotgun (former longgun) with an aftermarket pistol grip installed at time of purchase, and it transfers to you on 4473 as an "other", does that mean it would qualify as a gun that could be used for this project as if it were a PGO from the factory? Again, I assume the answer is no, but wanted to run this by the hive experts. |
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Posted: 3/17/2015 5:39:56 PM EDT
[#13]
The answer is no. Once a full stock has been attached it becomes a shotgun in perpetuity and no longer has any exemption from that definition. I would always have proof of provenance that the firearm is and always was a pistol grip firearm.
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Posted: 3/17/2015 6:25:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Has anyone ever attached a Knoxx Breachersgrip to see what the OAL would be with a 14" barrel? It appears a little longer than the standard Mossberg pistol grip, but I'm not sure it would make it long enough to get to 26" OAL. http://blackhawk.com/Products/Stocks-Long-Gun-Accessories/Stocks/Shotgun/Knoxx%C2%AE-BreachersGrip%E2%84%A2.aspx 14" pgo is 21.75" from tip of barrel to where the grip meets the tang if that helps... Let me know if you need anymore measurements 
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Posted: 3/18/2015 3:22:33 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 3/18/2015 3:35:45 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 3/18/2015 7:29:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys see this? I love it but $650 seems like a lot. $450-$500 is more like it. http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/Shorty1-2.jpg New PGO is $350 ish. shockwave grip is $30. new 14" front end is $225 with shipping. So building one is just over $600. Now you might be able to sell your old front end and recoup some money that way. Brand new front end I could see getting easily $150 if you get the PGO with the 590 mag tube. If only Mossberg sold the receivers as parts then you might could do it for less. |
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Posted: 3/18/2015 8:21:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New PGO is $350 ish. shockwave grip is $30. new 14" front end is $225 with shipping. So building one is just over $600. Now you might be able to sell your old front end and recoup some money that way. Brand new front end I could see getting easily $150 if you get the PGO with the 590 mag tube. If only Mossberg sold the receivers as parts then you might could do it for less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You guys see this? I love it but $650 seems like a lot. $450-$500 is more like it. http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/Shorty1-2.jpg New PGO is $350 ish. shockwave grip is $30. new 14" front end is $225 with shipping. So building one is just over $600. Now you might be able to sell your old front end and recoup some money that way. Brand new front end I could see getting easily $150 if you get the PGO with the 590 mag tube. If only Mossberg sold the receivers as parts then you might could do it for less. Ah, got it. Makes sense now. I assume an 870 would be cheaper since the front end doesn't need to be changed. |
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Posted: 3/18/2015 9:05:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Just checked out the link for the Maryland. $850 for the Mossberg is crazy. They just cut the barrel on a 500. The 14" Mossberg factory is for a 590 mag tube set up. That is the one with the cleanout cap not the screw in mag tube cap. So they essentially are charging $500 for a $30 shockwave grip, $30 heat shield and few minutes with a chop saw and recrown barrel.
And that $650 for the Remington is still over priced. $300 for $30 grip and barrel cut/recrown . The $600 figure is for a factory front end. You take it down and remove original front end and reinstall 14" front end. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 8:24:15 AM EDT
[#20]
I found an 870 PG in stock for cheap, but I'm wondering if this is factory PG or something the distributor concocted themselves. You need to be sure you know what you're getting.
http://www.cdnnsports.com/870-express-12-18-3-bl-pg-pg.html#.VQq_Zo7F-z4 |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 1:58:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found an 870 PG in stock for cheap, but I'm wondering if this is factory PG or something the distributor concocted themselves. You need to be sure you know what you're getting. http://www.cdnnsports.com/870-express-12-18-3-bl-pg-pg.html#.VQq_Zo7F-z4 It's factory. All you need to do is search Remington and that model number. It should have a notice on the box stating that it is a pistol grip firearm and only buyers 21 yrs old +. Save the box as proof |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 3:45:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's factory. All you need to do is search Remington and that model number. It should have a notice on the box stating that it is a pistol grip firearm and only buyers 21 yrs old +. Save the box as proof Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I found an 870 PG in stock for cheap, but I'm wondering if this is factory PG or something the distributor concocted themselves. You need to be sure you know what you're getting. http://www.cdnnsports.com/870-express-12-18-3-bl-pg-pg.html#.VQq_Zo7F-z4 It's factory. All you need to do is search Remington and that model number. It should have a notice on the box stating that it is a pistol grip firearm and only buyers 21 yrs old +. Save the box as proof You da bomb, thanks |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 2:36:59 PM EDT
[#23]
When I did the Mossberg Non-NFA conversion, I started with a 590 cruiser and had Auger Precision switch out the front end and install the Shockwave grip. I sold off the original front end and the original grip to recoup most of the conversion cost.
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Posted: 3/20/2015 8:59:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I did the Mossberg Non-NFA conversion, I started with a 590 cruiser and had Auger Precision switch out the front end and install the Shockwave grip. I sold off the original front end and the original grip to recoup most of the conversion cost. That's the benefit of the Mossberg. If only Mossberg would work with shockwave technologies and offer them already made factory version. Then people so inclined to form 1 them into SBS would be able to just ad a stock after receiving their "permission" |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 8:40:34 AM EDT
[#25]
More more more!
Someone needs to make a video shooting a non nfa 14 incher! |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:30:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Fits in a tennis racket bag nicely. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 3:23:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Damn that looks sexy.
But why so many Mossbergs? Wouldn't an 870 be easier and cheaper because you don't need a $200 front end replacement? |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 7:54:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn that looks sexy. But why so many Mossbergs? Wouldn't an 870 be easier and cheaper because you don't need a $200 front end replacement? One more round and ambi safety. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 8:57:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One more round and ambi safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Damn that looks sexy. But why so many Mossbergs? Wouldn't an 870 be easier and cheaper because you don't need a $200 front end replacement? One more round and ambi safety. Ah, thanks |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 11:32:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, thanks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Damn that looks sexy. But why so many Mossbergs? Wouldn't an 870 be easier and cheaper because you don't need a $200 front end replacement? One more round and ambi safety. Ah, thanks I think I'd just do this with Raptor grip. Kinda like the breacher as a brake idea. http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-mossberg-500-tactical-500-6-shot-8-shot-500-cruiser-6-shot/54125 |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 7:28:10 AM EDT
[#31]
It's cheaper to just get a factory Mossberg 590A1 AOW and deal with the NFA bull crap. Found one in stock for $460, I'd have already bought it but I just purchased a VEPR 12 this month.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 8:12:08 AM EDT
[#32]
Now that I have my trust set up, I may just purchase a Mosssberg AOW and do the NFA dance. Then I will SBS the non-nfa version that I have.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 11:26:55 AM EDT
[#33]
http://nfa-arms.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=304
How about $369 plus shipping and $5 NFA. Looks like the took Mossberg AOW and put Raptor grip on them. Even though they are no longer in AOW configuration they are still treated as one? or this one for $299. same AOW tax http://www.armslist.com/posts/3269755/dayton-ohio-nfa-firearms-for-sale--14inch-mossberg-590a1-12ga-shotgun-registered-as-an-aow--5-nfa-tax-stamp-required |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:35:17 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 3/23/2015 8:42:34 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 3/24/2015 12:34:57 AM EDT
[#36]
those are fine looking tools. I still need a tad more tube, a little something for the shoulder too in a shotgun.
nice stuff though. |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 12:22:09 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 3/31/2015 12:29:56 PM EDT
[#38]
I don't understand why mossberg doesn't just start selling these complete.
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Posted: 4/1/2015 10:17:41 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand why mossberg doesn't just start selling these complete. They would sell a metric shit ton if they can sell the rest of the zombie-chainsaw crap they've been hawking. But these would make for bad press. All the uniformed public would see is a loop-hole for "sawed-off" shotguns. Mossberg then becomes a target for all the hoplophobic wieners. And being such a large company, probably don't want that kind of attention. There are people on this board who are afraid to own one of these on the chance an ignorant officer would arrest them. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 10:44:12 AM EDT
[#40]
Sig brace all over again if these were factory guns
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Posted: 4/1/2015 11:46:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sig brace all over again if these were factory guns +10000000 Lets write some letters to see if the ATF contradicts or retracts their statements because I NEED to prod the bear!!! 
I swear we can be our own worst enemies sometimes. Just stop writing the fucking letters people. If there is one letter out there you need to make yourself feel better about the fact you're not breaking the law, print that bitch out and carry it with you gun. Or we can keep writing those fucking letters. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 12:11:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand why mossberg doesn't just start selling these complete. Because some states have different definition of shotgun then Federal. These may be Non-NFA in all 50 states but will still be considered short barrel shotguns in some. The key is the definition of shotgun. Some states follow the fed guidelines (designed to be shouldered) and some have definition that would include the PGO's. Mossberg would have to learn each states rules and then insure that they don't send these into those states. Then there is the group of people that don't check their own states laws and bring in legal firearms from another state and end up breaking the law. |
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Posted: 4/6/2015 12:03:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because some states have different definition of shotgun then Federal. These may be Non-NFA in all 50 states but will still be considered short barrel shotguns in some. The key is the definition of shotgun. Some states follow the fed guidelines (designed to be shouldered) and some have definition that would include the PGO's. Mossberg would have to learn each states rules and then insure that they don't send these into those states. Then there is the group of people that don't check their own states laws and bring in legal firearms from another state and end up breaking the law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't understand why mossberg doesn't just start selling these complete. Because some states have different definition of shotgun then Federal. These may be Non-NFA in all 50 states but will still be considered short barrel shotguns in some. The key is the definition of shotgun. Some states follow the fed guidelines (designed to be shouldered) and some have definition that would include the PGO's. Mossberg would have to learn each states rules and then insure that they don't send these into those states. Then there is the group of people that don't check their own states laws and bring in legal firearms from another state and end up breaking the law. This is a big part of it. One reason people are also willing to pay more than an AOW is that some states don't allow NFA but these are still ok there. So far CA and NJ are the only two states I have found where these are NOT legal. And if there was a way to build them cheaper I would. I wish I could sell them for less than 650 but as someone pointed out the cost of the base gun to start with plus parts ...it's only a few dollars more to have it built by a pro and have paperwork for the gun. Mossberg is VERY restrictive on some parts. I am a manufacturer and even I can't buy some internal parts like a bolt assembly. And Mossberg also will not sell stripped receivers (not even to Serbu anymore). Currently I am looking at having a Mossberg 500 type receiver made but I having the internal parts made would bring the cost right back up again (unless a huge manufacturer like Mossberg was to do it). And this is such a niche product, there just wouldn't be enough sales to brake even in the end. |
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Posted: 4/6/2015 8:16:36 AM EDT
[#44]
Does the letter on these say they can't be concealed?
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Posted: 4/6/2015 3:01:13 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the letter on these say they can't be concealed? It's 26.5" long. Is that a shotgun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? I am only a lawyer on the internet, not in real life, but I think the >26" rule is because if it's longer than that, the ATF says it can't be concealed. However, there are probably state laws relevant to this question as well. |
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Posted: 4/7/2015 3:38:05 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the letter on these say they can't be concealed? Yes, the tech branch letter does specifically say that is you conceal it, it IS an AOW. Personally I think the ATF's logic is flawed on that. By that logic is you conceal an 18.5" barrel it's an AOW
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Posted: 4/7/2015 7:22:15 AM EDT
[#47]
The vague "concealed" rule is the problem. The OAL 26" rule was designed around men's coats/jackets of the era. Supposedly anything over 26" would stick out. But what about a trench coat? You can conceal just about any firearm under a trench coat. I can conceal these in my car by throwing a blanket on top and have it in front seat. But can also do the same with the 18.5" barrel version. What constitutes concealed vs stored? The tennis bag above. Is it stored in that bag or concealed? I believe these are left vague on purpose so that they can be used against gun owners on the whim of the prosecutors.
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Posted: 4/8/2015 8:57:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Size comparison 18.5" vs 14"
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Posted: 4/22/2015 8:00:28 AM EDT
[#49]
CDNN just put a PGO 870 on sale. $360 plus shipping. It was regularly priced at $370 so this is only $10 off.
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Posted: 4/22/2015 3:58:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Anyone have any luck sourcing 14" front end parts from another vendor? Mossberg can KMA after promising me the parts earlier this year and reneging based on a ridiculouis policy. (The police are civilians too
 BTW Mossberg unless they work for the DoD)
I am NEVER hesitating when buying anything firearm related in the future. It would have been all of ~$350 to have Mossberg send me the parts I needed to put the 14" front end on my Cruiser. Now there is a SINGLE 14" barrel with bead sight on flea-bay for $329.99! Credit cards can be paid off forever but some things will not always be available. |
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