I like the .38 super alot, I guess the .357 sig will do the same thing but not in a 1911 platform ( to my knowledge). So, what would it take for the .38 super to become as popular as the .357 sig. By that I mean you could buy the ammo at Walmart, which during the ammo shortage still had .357 sig on the shelf.
I would think that a Law Enforcement body would have to adopt it as their duty weapon, probably nothing less than that. I am thinking the .45 GAP is still treated as a curosity and Glock promoted that pretty heavlyl.

One of the Wal-Marts in Lawton, OK carried WWB .38 Super at about 28 bucks a box fairly recently. Get Glock to chamber for it, and then you'll be able to find it easier.

I agree that probably nothing less than a widespread, revived interest by police agencies would have much of an effect.

And given the length of the cartridge, most service guns would have to be built on the larger-framed designs (a trend that has been heading the other way for a decade or two).

The only reason it's still enjoying as much success as it has is probably due to its widespread use in competition.   If it weren't for that, I think .38 Super would probably have faded away in the US.   .357 SIG has a comparable performance envelope and it has the bonus of being able to work in smaller-framed guns that are typically chambered in 9 and 40.

BTW, I'm still working on that .38 Super I picked up from you, and should have it done before too much longer.

There is an article in American Rifleman - coincidental timing?



American Rifleman .38 Super article

Like any other caliber, adoption by the US military or by a large number of LE agencies...

I haven't done much competitive pistol shooting, so for me, hearing the words ".38 Super" conjures images of a Mexican Pimp Gun - a nickel plated 1911 with pearl grips and a picture of a woman engraved on the slide...

I think .38 super is more popular than .357 sig, there's more handguns chambered in it, it's been around longer, and I think it'll be around long after .357 sig goes away.


Close performance to .357 sig with the recoil of a 9mm whats not to like?

I wonder how that's working out for .45 GAP...

When I worked for a major firearms distributor, the GM called it ".38 Stupid" and only ordered them if a dealer called and asked for one.

If you look at the factory ballistics, it is not much better than the 9x19, in +P, so why bother?

You need a frame that has a magazine well long enough, and if it is long enough to use a .38 Super Magazine, then it is long enough to be chambered in .45 ACP, or 10mm, so why bother?

You would need to handload the round to almost .357 SIG pressure in order to get .357 SIG performance.  Since most every .40 S&W can be rebarreled to .357 SIG, why bother?

Now, if you want to use and carry a .38 Super "just because", then as a lover of the .41 Magnum (a pretty dead round itself), I say go for it!

If you are hoping that 2011 is the year of the .38 Super and we change our minds and see the light, well.....hope springs eternal.

IF you had a time machine you could go back and convince Mr. Dillon and others NOT to support the 9x21 and 9x23 cartridge.
I think the 38 Super made major but just barely...open to correction here.

When Para Ordinance and Caspian came out with wide body 1911's in 45, it was game over for the 38 Super.

There will be a limited market for 38 Super in countries that ban civilian ownership of military cartridges like...ironically: Mehico.

For a little while, anyway.

It'd have to be like $5 a box at every Walmart in the universe, and always in stock in plentiful bounty.

Wide bodies in the hot 9's still dominate IPSC open class.



 

Yep, hard to beat 28 rounds of .38 Super in a big stick.

Hi Ken, good to hear from you and good to hear the project is on track.



Don't think I have ever seen those rounds on the shelf.

Everyone is correct, the .357 sig surpasses the Super  velocity wise in many cases. What I do find to be intersting is that in my 'Modern Reloading by Richard Lee' there are five and one half pages of reloading data for the Super and for the Sig not quite two. The .38 super can be loaded up to a 160grn bullet, the Sig a 147 grn bullet. Also the Super is better in that it does show similar, some times better velocities as the Sig at a lower operating pressure. For instance the .357 Sig pushing a 124 gr bullet to 1325 fps is showing 39600PSI, the Super pushing the same bullet to 1411fps is showing 34700 psi. I don't know how important this is but it sounds good.
I think the Sig got public interest after the Secret Service adopted it, correct me if I am wrong. Also the 10mm when brefley adopted by the FBI got it's start.
I guess I am just old school, the Super has been around for a long time, it was the first cartridge to defeat the body armor back in the day and I think it was developed in part to do this and penetrate car doors and crack engine blocks of bad guys like Bonnie and Clyde. The .357 Sig is not offered in a 1911 and while I have owned Glocks and XD's they just don't blow air up my skirt like a nicely turned out 1911 does.
I had a commander size 1911 in .38 Sup and it ran well and was accurate, I only sold it to finance another purchase. I would kinda like another, I think a alloy frame commander size 1911 in .38 Super is a awsome carry gun, but really no advantage to a Glock or Sig in .357 Sig. Also Wally World in my area does not carry ammo for it. But while we had Sportsman's Supermarket, they had three or four different brands of .38 Super on the shelf.
YMMV

That's because Modern Reloading by Richard Lee simply aggregates data from other sources, mostly the powder manufacturers.  The .38 Super has been around a lot longer than the .357 Sig, as such there is a lot more data available.

I dont see how you say it is more popular. Almost nobody chambers commercial guns for it and even the IPSC crowd which has been keeping it alive is switching over to 9mm now that the rules allow it to be loaded to major.


I would believe that there are more supers in existence but with the rate the sigs are being built I doubt it will stay on top for long if not already surpassed.

You also have to keep in mind that the .38 Super is a straight wall case while the .357 Sig is a bottle-neck case. More people load for the .38 Super because of that. It's just easier. It is also a lower pressure round. It has been around for a long time. The .357 Sig is just another new gee-whiz caliber that will eventually go away. It doesn't do anything the Super can't do, but every once in a while the big boys have to come up with something new, even if it is a solution in search of a problem.
The .38 Super may not be as popular in competition, but it is still a good small game round. Sure, there are other newer calibers that will do what it does, but the 30-06 has been around for a while too as has the .45acp. There have been a lot of calibers developed to replace both of them but they still do what they have always done, and do it very well.

As for them being pimped out Mexican pistols, tomorrow I will post a pic of my Colt Super .38 made in 1952. No pimperization on it.

Jim

Please do Jim. I had a Combat Commander, and then an older Commander.Only Super i have now is a steel frame Witness compact.Want another in a 1911,i also reload for the Super.I have always like the caliber.

I'm still pissed off about that fucking round, not because I hate Glock or anything but now I have to check every piece of brass I pick up at the range for the GAP headstamp. No good sons of
bitches.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Really enjoying this post.  In my travels, I came into possession of a case of .38 Super Auto ammo but don't have a gun.  Any recommendations for a good pistol?  Or should I just sell the ammo and get more .45 or 9mm?

Wow, there is some info in this post that is off base.  38 Super is a 1911 round.  That alone is prob part of its downfall.  For the longest time if you wanted a 1911 you had one choice... Colt.  And at the time 1911 was the big boy in bulls eye and that meant 45 acp.  Colt also sent a lot of the Supers to other countries as stated earlier.  Europe and South of the border.   I will say it can be harder to find ammo, but I have not had too much trouble.  I do hand load my target ammo but I have DT, Winchester, and Buffalo Bore that I carry mine with.  

The other thing that hurt the Super.  Again Colt was about the only Super game in town and up to the 80's or 90's they were still head spacing off the rim!  So accuracy was not always the best. You get a batch of ammo with a more wimpy rim, POI would shift.  Newer Colts and others space off the rim.  After adding a fitted front bushing, my Colt runs 1.5 inch or so at 15 yards if I do my part.  

I have never heard of 38 Supers blowing up!  Just do not shoot Super out of a 38 Auto, the Super's father.  And I am not sure what you would convert to Super.  Its close enough you might find a 9mm you can convert.  I think that poster was thinking of converting Super to  9x21 or 9x23, both are much hotter and need good case support (ramp barrel)

Supers are hotter than a 9mm+P.  130 gr at 1300 fps is std 38 Super and its hotter than 9mm +p.  357 Sig 125gr runs 1300 -1350.  And I personally hate the recoil pulse and blast of the Sig.  I would rather have a good 40 defense load or carry my 10mm.   And honestly I see more Supers than 357 Sig at the range.  Reloading the Sig is not an easy task.  Also as stated you have an issue of case volume and limited range of bullet weights.  Not my cup of tea at all.  I would rather have Super, 9mm, 40, or 10mm any day.  At least with the 10mm I know I am getting more performance for the flash and boom.

I have personally found the Supers have less feeding issues than 9mm 1911.  If I want a 1911 in 9mm I will stick to my Hi Power.

As of right now, Colt, S&W, Para, Rock Island, Kimber, and Taurus all make 38 Super 1911s.  

What would it take to get it more popular.  Handgunner did an article on some new Colts including a bright stainless Super.  My dealer said he started getting calls right after.  I think some press would do wonders.  I remember when the XD (and HS2000 pre XD) couldn't be given away until the XD won gun of the year.  I paid 3 bills for my XD.  Next year it was over 400.

I suggest try shooting a 1911 Super.  No recoil, accurate, 9 +1 rounds. I got mine and I have almost stopped shooting my other pistols.

Here is my Super.  

.38 Super Face was VERY common in the 1980's and early 1990's.  It DID occur.

And as for the oft quoted 130gr @1,300 fps, chronographed the factory loads do not approach it.

5" Stainless 1911 Gov't Model w/ factory Colt .38 Super Barrel

Manufacturer Bullet Weight Catalog #  Measured Velocity*

CORBON            125       DPX38X           1417**

CORBON            115       SD38X115         1455**

CORBON            125       SD38X125         1375**

Federal           130       AE38S1           1236

Fiocchi           129       38SA             1116

Magtech           130       38S              1171

PMC               115       38SB             1127

Remington         130       L38SUP           1237

Winchester        130       Q4205            1191

Winchester        125       X38ASHP          1178

*Velocity was measured with a Shooting Chrony Alpha chronograph at 15 feet and is the average of 3-15 rounds.

**Pressure signs include flattened and/or pierced primers and/or bulged cases.

Compare these with the 9x19

Kimber Target II 1911 5" barrel in 9x19

Manufacturer Bullet Weight Catalog #  Measured Velocity*

CORBON            115       DPX09115         1327

CORBON            115       SD09115          1411

CORBON            125       SD09125          1314

Federal           115       9BP              1181

Speer             124       23617            1279

*Velocity was measured with a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital chronograph at 15 feet and is the average of 10 rounds.

Man you scored a case of .38 sup, check gunsamerica.com and gunbroker.com for a 1911 in .38 super. I am certain you can find one. As someone mentoned the .38 super is very popular in Mexico because citizens may not own a firearm in an military round. Aguila ammo is good and inexpensive, made in Mexico I think.
Also you can check the want ads and gun shows, most likely anyone selling a .38 super in a 1911 will discount it because the demand is less than a .45 or even a 9mm in a 1911.
I know a guy who followed an auction on Gunbroker for a .38 super in a 1911, it did not sell and this guy contacted the seller and bought the gun at a reduced price.
My only resevation in carrying the Super as a SD gun is over penetration. But on the plus side it should zip thru car doors and windows. The Corbon 125gr was my choice for SD ammo. I did see some mild flattening of the primers.
In a alloy frame Commander the .38 super still has mild recoil but it does bark.
Good luck.

See here is the problem.  Just like 357, 44 mag, 38 Super, and esp 10mm, the factory ammo boys tend to under load their offering.  The org. 38 Super was 130 ball running right under 1300 fps out of a 5 inch 1911.  That was your every day Super when it came out.  Also, it looks like some are running .355 slugs instead of .356.  This is why I am running  Winchester and DT.  

I load my Ball Super to right about the same.  I load my 130 Berry's to right over 1200 (I stay below 1250 for the copper coated).  I also run some hard cast 135 gr right at 1200.  You can't dupe those numbers with a 9mm.  Lets just say I wouldn't.  

Even still, lets take the conservative numbers, why wouldn't you want a heavier bullet running the same speed as  a lighter 9mm bullet that is pushed to the max?

Underloaded?  The loads today are safe and pressure tested with piezo electric transducers.  Back in the day copper units of pressure.  Reading tea leaves.

Just like the old yarns that round nose bullets "buck brush" better and "they all fall to hardball", yup back in the day we he men used "REAL" loads and "REAL" handloads.

Do the math.

Case Capacity: 9x19
15.6gr to 16.0gr of H2O

Case Capacity: .38 Super
18.6gr to 18.9gr of H2O

That is, at best, 16% to 21% more capacity.

But, ah, it is not because the .38 Super seats bullets 0.030" to 0.040" deeper than the 9x19, which takes away ~0.28gr of H2O.

That means that the .38 Super has between 14% and 19% more capacity.

When kept at the same pressure, this translates into 3% to 5% more velocity, or 33fps to 65fps. Whoop Dee Do.

So, a 124gr Gold Dot HP fired out of a 4" to 5" 9x19 @ 1,180fps to 1,260fps pales in comparison with the same bullet fired out of a 5" barreled .38 Super @ 1,200fps to 1,320fps?

Now, you want to use a 1911 .38 Super for SD/HD, or competition, go for it!!  Just do not kid yourself that what you are using is "Head and Shoulders" better than the person who uses a Glock 17, Beretta 92, S&W M&P, etc, etc, etc...

Well don't kid yourself.

Testing methods have nothing to do with it.  Supers did not blow up guns when they were loaded to full power.  The don't now either.  My gun is proof of it.  I has everything to do with lawyers and someone doing something stupid like shoot it out of a 1902 Colt   I'm not talking reading tea leaves, I am talking working experience.  

I've been hand loading for 25 years now.  9mm is a fine round, I carry one of several, esp my Hi Power. Your figures don't jive and case volume does not tell everything.  Supers also tend to like slower powers too.  

So lets measure some examples.  I like Power Pistol.  Little flashy but works wonders in 10mm, 40, 9 and Super. Max load in 124 9mm??  6.5 gr which pushes it to 1170 fps.  

6.8 Power Pistol under 130 gr 38 Super = 1260 fps. That is a 90 fps delta.  To me, that is substantial. Not to mention the Super is pushing a heavier bullet.  

But lets do apples to apples, or as close as I can get.  I love the 9mm Gold dot so 124 GD +P runs 1220 fps vs 125 gr Corbon Super running 1325!  that is a 105 fps delta.  

Don't get me wrong, I like my 9mm esp for the compact pistols it comes in.  But head to head the Super is a better round.  

Here is the best part, so far we are talking just plain ole 38 Super.  Step up to 38 Super Auto comp, the same round with a thick web around the base and you can run way higher.  Or like the open guys running supported ramped barrels, things just get hotter.  

When it come to handloading I never kid.  I do not know what ju-ju you are using, but your approach to handloading does not sound methodical and scientific.

You really need to read up on USPSA and IPSC history and "Super Face".  This was with Bar-Sto barrels, and then with ramped barrels.  There was a reason why Pachmayr grips were popular, the steel helped prevent/minimize damage to your hands when the round went boom.  They finally got this under control, but it did happen.

Facts are facts, don't matter if they jive.  Pushing a heavy bullet, why?  Outside of IPSC and USPSA, and trying to make Major PF, there is no reason to run a heavy bullet.  What 130gr Hollow Point bullet is out there that people use for SD/HD?

To bolster you assertion why aren't you keeping apples to apples.  Same bullet, same powder, same barrel length, hooked up to a strain gauge to get both to the same pressure?

The .38 Super Comp has the same internal capacity and std. .38 Super brass.  The rim is smaller so to enhance feeding reliability in high capacity magazines of raceguns.  It is no stronger than std. Winchester or Remington .38 Super brass.

Look at the velocity from two 1911 pattern pistols, one on 9x19, one in .38 Super using the ammo from the same manufacturer (Cor-Bon) and the same bullets (DPX)

.38 Super

CORBON            115       SD38X115         1455



CORBON            125       SD38X125         1375



9x19

CORBON            115       SD09115          1411



CORBON            125       SD09125          1314

Again, if you want to use your .38 Super and it works for you, fine, that is great.

Factually, gel testing analysis, pressure testing analysis, it just is not THAT much better than a 9x19.

The .38 Super has been a popular cartridge.  Colt has sold a bunch over the years.  They sold more .38 Supers than they did any thing else in the years after WWII up until the 1970s.

Ammunition is readily available in many areas, and can certainly be obtained in places where it is not popular.

The 9x23mm Winchester is superior ballistically, and lacks the silly semi-rim, but it has been a flop commercially, just barely hanging on.  The 9mm in +p loadings will hang right in there with it ballistically, and this hurts its popularity.  The 357 SIG will out perform it also, but doesn't work all that well in the 1911 type pistols.  I have one, and it has almost driven me crazy over the years.  357 SIG Gov't model is a great idea in theory, but hasn't worked out well in practice.

The old barrels which head-spaced (or attempted to) on the semi-rim, and the semi-rim itself hurt this cartridge more than anything else.  But even the old barrels can be very accurate with the proper handloads.

Since a 9mm barrel can easily be fitted to a .38 Super, cheap 9mm ammunition is not a real good reason for avoiding the .38 Super.  Or a 10mm, for that matter.

STI Trojan.



 

This web site has lots of info and he chronoed the Corbon 125-gr JHP +P: at 1448 ft/sec, while not .357 mag terroritory it is pretty close.  
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

It just occurred to me, what it would take to put the spotlight on the .38 Super. One of the Gangster rappers, like 50cent would have to feature the .38 super in one of his videos. So let's start a fund to produce a rap video starring the .38 Super.

 I've posted facts.  Supers perform well,  there are no pressure issues, it does out perform 9mm in std and +P form, but it is not as popular, it has been mostly tied to one gun for 80 + years

I got the .38 Super Comp info from the manufacturer, Starline.  You got your data from a website.  I'll take the manufacturer's word.  Also, I see no strain gauge testing of the loads on that link.

Due to the size difference of the two cases, you CAN get ~100fps difference between a 147gr 9x19 and a 147gr .38 Super load.  Still, since the bullets are constucted to work within the ballistic envelope of these two rounds, one will not be any better than the other when shot into bad guys.  Also, if you look, you see that 124gr bullets perform rather well in testing.

Look at your link.

9x19 barrel length - 4.0"
.38 Super barrel length - 5.0"

Take the 9x19 and add 1% per 1/2 inch and you get 1,275 fps out of a 5.0" barrel.  This is a difference of 50fps and within the margin that I said the .38 Super would outperform the 9x19.

If you looked at the Product Number, that I provided in my post, you would see that I posted real data from real pistols.

Ballistics by the inch (where I got the 9x19 data) tested that load and got 1,314 fps out of their 9x19 Kimber 1911 for SD09125.

38Super.net (where I got the .38 Super data) tested that load and got 1,375fps out of their .38 Super Colt Stainless for SD38X125.

The difference? 61 fps. Which again is within the margin that I said the .38 Super would outperform the 9x19.

What is your point?

I said that the .38 Super would be able to shoot the same bullet faster, at the same pressure, and it does.
I said that the .38 Super is effective for SD/HD, and it is.

Where you and I differ is that that 44fps (115gr) or 61fps (125gr) actually means something in a SD/HD situation.  Where this 44fps/61fps difference matters is in USPSA Open Class.

The CorBon .38 Super Loads, as chronographed by 38Super.net, make Major PF comfortably, the 9x19 loads, as chronographed by Ballistics by the inch, does not.  Do not know many people firing uncompensated guns in Open class, though.  The .40 S&W rules the roost in Limited, Limited 10, and Single Stack, at least here in SE PA, though there are some running 9x19 (in Minor PF) in Single-Stack.  YMMV.

Yes, I think that if Glock came out with a 18 Shot Glock 20/21 framed pistol in .38 Super, it might a bigger impact.  Still, I do not know how big that impact would be.

IMO, the best round(s) for a 1911 sized frame is the .45 ACP (or 10mm).  Again, YMMV and we can agree to disagree on this point.

Loading .38 super for major is a hell of a lot better and safer than loading 9mm for major. There's the case for .38 super in one sentence.

<eta> For carry and LEO the .357sig is better choice. That said I'm not much on anything less than .40 cal for carry.

You seem to be tweeking and manufacturing data.   Quote right from Starline's website  "The .38 Super Comp is a heavy duty rimless 38 Super. Similar internal capacity to 38 Super. Designed to enhance feeding reliability in high capacity magazines of competition raceguns chambered for .38 Super. May require minor extractor tuning in some firearms. Also works perfectly for a substitute 9 Steyr case. When using Dillon press .223 shell plate works best where applicable. http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1

Gun games are fine, IDPA is the only one I've fooled with.  To me comped open. limited, etc are cool, but not my thing and they do not prove any real world capability to me.  

where we don't agree is you say 44 to 61 fps.  I say those numbers are way conservative.  I sill stand by 75 to 100 fps or more.  I am pulling that from my Lee reloading manual.  Top fps max load for 130 gr is 1400 fps using Vihtavuori powder.  In a SD/HD situation a heavier bullet with more speed  is more likely to have the momentum to push through to a vital organ than a lighter one. Period!  Esp in a cross cavity shot or through heavier cloth or barrier.  This is an undisputed fact, it is physics.  I've used the same formula on game.  And with that I would say even with your numbers 44 to 61 fps, is enough to justify the Super for a defensive round.  

And come on, if the 9mm was just as good as 38 Super, why did the FBI go with 38 Super, 9mm had been around for decades?

I've said all I can.  

I decided to put the case of 38 super auto up for sale on the EE...
Link

FWIW:  "Super Face" was more of an issue during the era before ramped barrels were available.  In addition, a lot of handloaders were flying blind as to what powders to use and how much was needed in order to make Major Power Factor.

"wonder what it would take for it to become popular"

Ammo at $.20 a round!

I would pretty much HAVE to buy an Open gun at that point.