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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:32:22 AM EDT
Is the hammer supposed to fall to the first safety position when I release the slide? Basically what is happening is this: when the slide is locked back with the the slide lock and I release it the hammer falls down to the position that is the first 'click'. When I say "first click" I mean the safety position wherein the hammer is 1/4 of an inch away from the slide. Is this making sense? I can post pictures if it helps, but hopefully y'all can figure out what I am so poorly describing.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:35:46 AM EDT
[#1]
No. In fact, you'll probably end up needing new fire control components. Fortunately you have a half cock, otherwise you would have an AD.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:46:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Crap. Which part(s)? I have several 1911 styles and several Colts so I'm no stranger to complete dissasembly, but only have one Gold Cup so I wasn't sure if it was acting normally. This is interesting because this is the gun my father had loaned me to take my CHL course and it didn't feed properly. Fortunately I was able to push the slide shut with my thumb and still have enough time to hit the target within the timeframe of the drills. |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:50:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Been a while since I read the tech manual for the 1911, but if I remember correctly its the sear or hammer. Worn down.
Where's Lumpy? |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 12:53:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Cool. I'm assuming the wear will be pretty obvious. Would the guts in the frame be the same as a Commander or Officer's model? I can disassemble two side-by-side and compare.
Where's Lumpy? Probably in bed like a normal person - it's 3:50am CDT. I'm in no hurry - I have plenty of guns for protection. 
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Posted: 10/21/2004 1:09:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Yeah, it'll be similar to other single stack 1911 fcg components. The trigger is wider though.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 1:10:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Lumpy usually is around at this time of night. I think he gets off work a 12 or 1. PST that is.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 11:48:09 AM EDT
[#7]
The Lumpy with the Travis Bickle avatar? Maybe I'll PM him. This is why I usually post in the Team Forum because I've noticed that 'these' forums aren't as lively. 
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Posted: 10/21/2004 1:29:44 PM EDT
[#8]
I cannot push the hammer 'closed' when it is cocked if that helps. My mother had a Charter Arms revolver that had the problem wherein it wouldn't cock every time and if it did one could push the hammer 'down'. The Gold Cup is not doing that.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 2:56:10 PM EDT
[#9]
You shouldn't be able to. So thats good. I looked at my books, and it sounds like a hammer/sear engagement issue. Probably something a gunsmith should fix. Hold the gun, slide down, thumb holding down the safety, and grip safety depressed. Pull the hammer back with your thumb, then let it go. Where does it stop? |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:09:22 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm not sure I completely understand. The hammer only stops in 2 places: the "half-cock" safety (which is more like a 1/10 cock) and full cock.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:20:00 PM EDT
[#11]
With the test I described it should stop at full cock. If it drops to half cock, or worse to the pin, there is an issue. This test is without operating the trigger. |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:20:16 PM EDT
[#12]
you need to take it apart...look at the sear and hammer ingagment ...the sear is probably worn...but be warned...on certain gold cups there was a added saftey feature on the sear...and im not talking about the series 80 saftey parts this was a really small spring and lever on the sear itself....once you take it out dont even try to get it back in.......because its next to impossible to get in with out launching it........you might be able to recut the sear but most of the time i just replaced them.....if the engagement looks good then rebend the sear spring and add more tension to it.....i know ALOT OF PEOPLE will drop the slide on an empty chamber to make sure the engagement holds....but trust me on this....that is not good for the gun.......it bangs up the top and bottom lugs on the barrel and slide really bad.
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:28:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Crap. This is a Series 80 so it does have the PITA spring, right? 
My father had heard about this, but only recently, and I asked him this: what is the difference between dropping the slide 'Hollywood Style' and the gun cycling normally? |
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Posted: 10/21/2004 3:36:25 PM EDT
[#14]
The extractor is holding onto the rim of the round, and the whole thing is slowed by the ammo loading into it. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 5:28:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Even the series '70 Gold Cup had that "sear depressor spring", made to preload the sear to keep the problem you have from happening.
A cut off toothpick is what I use as a slave pin when reassembling those tiny parts. Besides the shelf the hammer lands on when the slide is dropped, there *should* be a firing pin safety in your series '80. It can be seen by locking the slide back and looking for a plunger under the rear. It is shaped like an hourglass so when the trigger is pulled, a lever pushes it up to clear the way for the firing pin to hit the primer. Hopefully, someone didn't alter that too...to check, push in on the firing pin, it should stop short of the firing pin hole inside...then, by pushing in the firing pin AND the plunger at the same time, the firing pin should come out, normally igniting the round. I would not fire it until the problem is resolved. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 11:49:08 AM EDT
[#16]
OOh that's not good. You should dispose of that gun RIGHT AWAY and at an OFFICIAL Gold Cup recycling center.
<-------------npd233, an  Official Gold Cup Recycling Center.
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Posted: 10/22/2004 12:03:01 PM EDT
[#17]
 I use a bamboo skewer. Basically the same thing - I'm not a freak!
Crap. I'm a visual learner. When it's cocked I can depress the firing pin until it is flush with what I assume is the "shelf". I checked a Combat Commander and the pin it goes beyond that point. Now I'm worse off than ever - I guess I'll have to take it to a gunsmith. Maybe I'll check the November gun show for a manual first. I have plenty of guns so there's no need for me to shoot the Gold Cup. My father was a prude when it came to mods so this is surely from damage and not some renegade smith job - I hope.   If I have correctly labeled the components then the Combat Commader doesn't have a plunger - comforting. 
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Posted: 10/22/2004 1:22:18 PM EDT
[#18]
The Series 80 guns use a firing pin safety, which is what that "plunger" is all about. Look on the frame and you will see a thin lever that will rise up a little when the trigger is pulled...don't just yank the trigger with the slide off, but control the hammer with your thumb. That lever pushes upward on the plunger in order to clear a path for the firing pin to reach the primer. You can verify this by pushing upward on the plunger and then, while holding it up, push forward on the firing pin...it will come out of the breech face...or should. Your Combat Commander does not use this same system and is correct in operation if the firing pin simply goes forward when pushed.
The Colt stainless parts can be soft, and this is what I suspect is the problem, but I could be wrong. |
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Posted: 10/22/2004 1:36:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Ah, yes - I'm all too familiar with that part.  I too have noticed how soft the stainless steel is on Colts - much softer than S&W. 
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Posted: 10/22/2004 1:37:52 PM EDT
[#20]
I missed this one somehow. I was just going to shitcan for safety purposes.
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Posted: 10/23/2004 6:13:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Refering to the "shelf", that's the equivelent of the 1/2 cock notch on the series '70 hammer only on the series '80 it's not exactly a hooked notch because you can pull the trigger and the hammer will fall from that position...unnerving but it's supposed to.
It is much lower in the arc of the hammer's travel and should not ignite the cartridge when the trigger is pulled. Pushing in the firing pin on a series '80, it should not protrude from it's hole (breech face) due to the firing pin safety (that plunger), where on most other 1911s it will. Just for giggles, compare sear springs with the other 1911s, the sear "finger" of the Gold Cup's spring may have been bent to lessen the tension on the sear. |
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Posted: 10/23/2004 8:22:41 PM EDT
[#22]
 Egad, I may just replace the sear and the hammer regardless.
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Posted: 10/24/2004 6:58:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Bucko,
Before doing anything drastic try turning in the trigger stop screw a full turn (360 degrees) and see if this eliminates the problem. It's possible to over adjust the trigger stop screw and create this condition on Gold Cups. Also the spring and lever on the Gold Cup sear is there to compensate for the weight of the extra heavy (STEEL) trigger used in the Gold Cup. Unless you are replacing that trigger with a lighter weight aftermarket one I would recommend on making sure that those parts stay in place. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 3:49:43 AM EDT
[#24]
I backed my trigger screw out all the way, counter clockwise and left it that way.
Too much overtravel adjustment would normally prevent a full pull, not allowing the hammer to drop at all or possibly allowing it to fall to 1/2 cock if it's set right on the edge of working. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 11:29:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Counter-clockwise facing the 'dangerous' (bore?) end or the 'safe' (breech?) end?
It was turned all the way counter-clockwise if facing the dangerous end. I've noticed two things lately: 1) When trying to full cock it the hammer tends to slip off of my thumb and fall to 1/2 cock. I have absolutely no problem cocking any of my other Colts with one hand - even the ones with combat hammers. 2) When full cocked the hammer only drops to 1/2 cock when I release the slide from the locked open position (I know I'm not supposed to do that anymore, but I did it to test it. ); it does not do this when I cycle the slide and let it close.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:07:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Not knowing the history of that Gold Cup (mine was butchered) and not seeing it in person, it sounds like a sear engagement/tension issue...as if someone tried to coax a lighter trigger pull from it.
Try holding the trigger all the way back as you drop the slide, (empty chamber) it should then remain fully cocked. Before you just start swapping parts, I suggest "biting the bullet"  and letting someone qualified and familiar with the Gold Cup check it out.As for the trigger adjustment, counterclockwise, towards the muzzle...it's already backed out and probably is no longer part of the equation, IMO. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 11:36:24 AM EDT
[#27]
Yeah. It's just that I'm quite a mechanically inclined savant, but I have to have visual references. I just hate to have a gunsmith do something that I can do with a few pictures or short video. Plus, it's like a quest at this point. The hammer remains cocked when I close the slide slowly while holding it and dropping it like a normal cycle. The hammer falls to a 'fake' half-cock when I lock the slide, hold the trigger, and drop the slide. I say "fake" because I can't lower the hammer all the way by just pulling the trigger. I have to pull the hammer back to the true half-way mark at which point there is an audible click, the hammer returns to the normal half-cock safety and then I can lower it normally. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 11:50:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Sorry Bucko,
Sounds like it's a sear/hammer engaugement problem like anothergene has said. Any chance you can post high res pic's of the sear and hammer surfaces? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 12:32:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Sure - give me a sec. I'll make another post so if y'all are "subscribed" you'll get a notification.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 1:24:43 PM EDT
[#30]
From the few pictures I've found on the web I probably could've stopped at the sear (actually probably could've just replaced the sear, but wanted to let y'all see it anyway), but I included a picture of the hammer as well. It appears someone did a hack job on the sear:
   If y'all want copies of the pictures let me know I just put them on the ARFCOM server to save space on my 'ISP' page. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 2:01:27 PM EDT
[#31]
DAMN!!!!!That sear is trashed, the hammer could be salvaged but I myself wouldn't. Do you want to return it to OEM or customize it? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 2:09:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Well, I'll probably just order the parts from Wilson. I've heard that some of Colt's parts are a little too soft (hence the pictures) and also that Colt is stingy when it comes to selling replacement parts to non-gunsmiths (lawsuit thing I guess), but that was during the Clinton administration. I'm kinda' weird about aftermarket parts because at some point I can't really say I have a Colt anymore.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 2:16:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Wilson is MIM, some people have a problem with that, some don't.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 2:40:00 PM EDT
[#34]
What is "MIM"? 
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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:31:45 AM EDT
[#35]
My Gold Cup sear looked like that too...how embarassing to find it on a "top of the line" Colt!
As I said, mine was butchered by someone with a bigger file than brain, but I managed to save it. I had the "luxury" of starting from scratch, gathering and fitting parts...eventually not even using the "extra" Gold Cup parts and settling on a series '70 type hammer with no ill effects. (half cock) A Colt or any other brand still retains the name even when some higher quality aftermarket parts are used, I wouldn't be too concerened about that. Since you are determined to "do it yourself" get the best parts you can afford, of course after some research to find out as to which are the best parts. Be advised some "drop in" parts may not be and must be carefully fitted and good parts can also give you "sticker shock". Best of luck on your latest project, Bucko |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 10:48:30 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm only slightly stubborn - if a drop in part won't then I'll take it to a gunsmith. Since I've already got it disassembled I might as well reassemble it myself - although this one does have a strange little piece that I've not seen on my other 1911-style guns so I'm suspecting this one will go to a gunsmith, but I'll try a bit myself first. Wilson should 'drop in' without extra work, right? The 'performance' sear was like $22 and the "skelentenized" hammer was like $50 - I'll most likely get both to make it easier.
So judging from those pictures: do you think that was normal wear or a hack job and some wear? My father had an 'incident' with a Colt before so I'm certain he wouldn't have done that himself and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have someone do that. I've never know him to fire that gun much so I'm baffled. The incident I'm referring to is this: My father was at the range shooting one of his Colts (Govt Mod, I think). After the 'first' shot the slide locked open. He went to inspect the gun and found the mag empty. He was certain that the mag had been full. Well, after inspection of multiple shells on the ground and multiple holes in the target he inspected the gun more carefully. My father noticed that the firing pin was stuck in the 'fire' position and he had fired the entire magazine on full-auto open bolt style. He carefully glanced around and no one was staring so no one had apparently noticed. My father then sheepishly but the gun away and proceded to shoot a different gun.
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Posted: 10/27/2004 11:41:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Bucko replace the factory trigger with an alloy one and you won't need that extra part and spring
Hack job in my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 1:01:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Alloy from where? ...Wilson? I'm not a Wilson nut - it's just the only aftermarket company with which I'm familiar. Damn, moving slowly away from it being a Colt.
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Posted: 10/27/2004 3:18:43 PM EDT
[#39]
You say the gun went full auto? Then you will need to also replace the disconnector (the part that sticks through the frame and touches the slide)
That is the part that keeps it from doing that. That hammer / sear job is in NO way any sort of work Colt would do, even a semi-competent gunsmith would not do work like that in my opinion. If you replace the Hammer/ Sear/ Disconnector combo you should be good. Remember, check the thumb safety after it's all together to see that it works. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 11:22:03 PM EDT
[#40]
No, no, no, not this one. This was years ago and has since been fixed.
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Posted: 10/29/2004 7:44:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Kings DLASK CASTILLO'S |
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Posted: 10/30/2004 6:33:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Sweet. I think I had a King's on my 1st Delta Elite; it looked identical to that one. I'm intrigued by the DLASK - when they mention "medium" and "long" I'll just have to measure the trigger I take out to determine which one, right? I like the titanium - I'm assuming the flex helps otherwise they wouldn't use it. The Castillo is overkill for me. It's not just the price; the moving parts that need lubrication are more than I want to mess with. |
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