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Posted: 4/10/2023 5:23:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Federal HST Micro
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Posted: 4/10/2023 6:20:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Wadcutters, swc, or gold dot jhp. Winchester rangers too.
HST sucks in .38s except if you reload 9mm pulls |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 7:03:20 PM EDT
[#3]
I like standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP from Underwood---these.
The +p version has slightly better performance, but for an older gun I'd stick with standard pressure. Here's a video that shows the Buffalo Bore versions being tested in gel--and I know his testing with clear gel and fiberboard or whatever isn't strictly scientific, but it is interesting to see. Buffalo Bore's stuff is the same as Underwood's but Underwood's is cheaper.  ??.38 Special - Buffalo Bore "FBI Load" Ballistic Gel Test (.38+P VS .38 Standard Pressure) I sometimes carry their 150gr wadcutters, very easy shooting. Link here. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 7:36:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Any info available on .38 hydra shock deep ?
What I've seen reads well but, it's pretty limited, Nothing on calibrated ballistic jell ests I've been sticking with wc' s for my limited 38 carry |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 7:42:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any info available on .38 hydra shock deep ? What I've seen reads well but, it's pretty limited, Nothing on calibrated ballistic jell ests I've been sticking with wc' s for my limited 38 carry You can't find much of anything about testing in calibrated gel anymore. Or at least I can't. The same guy who does the videos with clear gel and fiber board did on on Hydrashock Deep.  ??Federal Hydra-Shok Deep???.38 Special+P VS 9mm - The Best "Post" on YouTube! |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 8:59:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: what is the best .38 special load for defence shooting? GUNS ARE NOT NEW GEN 36-J FRAME TO K FRAME 65\64 Federal 130gr HST Micro https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/ |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 9:01:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP +P
I've seen what these do to watermelons and no other load I've tried before can compare. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 4:13:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can't find much of anything about testing in calibrated gel anymore. Or at least I can't. The same guy who does the videos with clear gel and fiber board did on on Hydrashock Deep.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpHFCD_-qG8Looks like a version of WC / SWC is still the way to go. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 6:06:11 AM EDT
[#9]
The HSTs are very good when you can find them, so are the Underwood 158 LSWC's. They also make a 158 grain HCGC with over 500 ft # or energy. Its an impressive loading.
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Posted: 4/11/2023 6:40:30 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: what is the best .38 special load for defence shooting? GUNS ARE NOT NEW GEN 36-J FRAME TO K FRAME 65\64 Federal 130gr HST Micro https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/ Fwiw clear gel gives inaccurate results. 13-14" in clear gel probably gets 8-9" in organic gel or tissue. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 7:32:22 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can't find much of anything about testing in calibrated gel anymore. Or at least I can't. Having said that, I'd like to see someone shoot .38 Special at a ballistic torso. I can find Youtube videos of that for everything from .22 shorts to Kentucky rifles to tank rounds, but not .38 Special. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 7:43:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like a version of WC / SWC is still the way to go. If hollow points are illegal where you live, wadcutters are still a viable choice. Look at the huge nose cavities in Federal Micro HSTs. Even if for some reason you got zero expansion from one of them, it would then perform like a wadcutter, crushing tissue instead of pushing it aside like the bow of a boat.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 10:27:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The big ammo companies do the serious testing. Big law enforcement agencies as well, but they are no longer concerned with .38 Special. Yokels popping off ten rounds on YouTube are utterly irrelevant. Having said that, I'd like to see someone shoot .38 Special at a ballistic torso. I can find Youtube videos of that for everything from .22 shorts to Kentucky rifles to tank rounds, but not .38 Special. OK--whatever. I know what I carry, you carry what you want, and the OP can decide what is best for him. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 10:30:58 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fwiw clear gel gives inaccurate results. 13-14" in clear gel probably gets 8-9" in organic gel or tissue. That's correct, and what makes this so frustrating. I see the 158gr stuff doing fairly well even with the test medium limitations, and count on its service for years prior to the IWBA revolution in gel-test protocols. That's why I use those rounds versus the HST stuff. If others want to use them, go ahead. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 10:52:14 AM EDT
[#15]
I think of over-penetration as being important in urban settings. An entry wound without exiting seems to me would require a Dr and an E.R. if the bad guy lived through the shooting.
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Posted: 4/11/2023 11:33:59 AM EDT
[#16]
The FBI came up with its organic gel protocol simply to standardize testing. Shooting dead pigs is great, but they wanted a more consistent medium for comparisons. Other agencies developed different protocols, but the FBI’s became the industry standard.
Penetration and expansion in organic gel does not equal penetration and expansion in people, nor is it intended to. It’s just a means for making data comparable. Clear synthetic gel is popular with YouTubers because it’s cheaper and more convenient than organic gel, but it’s inappropriate to apply FBI protocol criteria to a medium that isn’t part of the FBI protocol. There is no “rule of thumb” conversion factor that can be applied, either. We shouldn’t try to equate synthetic gel with organic gel, and we shouldn’t try to equate either with human bodies. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 12:00:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP from Underwood---these. The +p version has slightly better performance, but for an older gun I'd stick with standard pressure. Here's a video that shows the Buffalo Bore versions being tested in gel--and I know his testing with clear gel and fiberboard or whatever isn't strictly scientific, but it is interesting to see. Buffalo Bore's stuff is the same as Underwood's but Underwood's is cheaper. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2skI sometimes carry their 150gr wadcutters, very easy shooting. Link here. I have some of that BB ammo. I bought some during a BB buying frenzy that I went through. I need to try it out. I also bought a case of some PPU 158 SWC when Taget Sports blew them out. I;ve shot some of their 357mag and it was very hot. I wonder of the 38spl ammo will be the same. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 12:19:22 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 4/11/2023 12:20:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Every time this question gets asked, the question turns into an argument about clear versus organic gelatin.
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Posted: 4/11/2023 12:47:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every time this question gets asked, the question turns into an argument about clear versus organic gelatin. |
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Posted: 4/11/2023 3:52:20 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wadcutters, swc, or gold dot jhp. Winchester rangers too. HST sucks in .38s except if you reload 9mm pulls 100% agree on this. Also I have really enjoyed reading your post on loading 147gr HST in .38 special. Than you for sharing it. |
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Posted: 4/12/2023 6:33:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, if we’re gonna worship the FBI tests we should understand them. Understood. Problem is not everyone has access to the organic gel/controlled conditions they use. Lacking that, I'll look at "yokels" shooting clear gel in their backyards, and compare their results to what the IWBA did in their prime. At a minimum, I see what the newer rounds do compared to "gold standard" testing. What I don't, and won't, trust is data published by the ammo manufacturers themselves. OP--check out the LSWCP rounds, they work even within a wide band of velocities and clothing on the target. That's what I did, and load my .38/.357 guns with those. Federal HST isn't bad, I've bought and stored some of those, too, but my "yokel" testing shows they aren't as good as what I recommended above. The best solution is to get a gun and practice enough so you put a round into the "computer room" of a bad guy. Hit the CNS, and the rest is academic. v/r Mike |
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Posted: 4/12/2023 8:18:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Optimal performance ( balance of power velocity penetration expansion recoil and bullets hitting at or close to point of aim) is going to give you likely two different loads between a 4” 6 shot versus a 2” 5 shot.
The 4” can take advantage of the extra power and velocity of a plus p where the snub really can’t For decades 158 lead SWC hp +p was considered one of the best options, and still is. The fixed sight smiths were designed ( sight height / regulation) to hit point of aim with 158’s. A lot of the lighter plus p jacketed rounds will hit low, some very low. I still use 148 wadcutters in the snub ( consistent penetration, good wound channel, hit to point of aim or close with most guns, manageable recoil) |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 12:47:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every time this question gets asked, the question turns into an argument about clear versus organic gelatin. Because uninformed posters post results from clear gel tests thinking it's relevant to self defense ammo choices. |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 12:49:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Penetration and expansion in organic gel does not equal penetration and expansion in people, nor is it intended to. It’s just a means for making data comparable. Yes it does and yes it was. |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 12:50:00 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100% agree on this. Also I have really enjoyed reading your post on loading 147gr HST in .38 special. Than you for sharing it. Your welcome 
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Posted: 4/13/2023 12:52:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Understood. Problem is not everyone has access to the organic gel/controlled conditions they use. Lacking that, I'll look at "yokels" shooting clear gel in their backyards, and compare their results to what the IWBA did in their prime. At a minimum, I see what the newer rounds do compared to "gold standard" testing. What I don't, and won't, trust is data published by the ammo manufacturers themselves. OP--check out the LSWCP rounds, they work even within a wide band of velocities and clothing on the target. That's what I did, and load my .38/.357 guns with those. Federal HST isn't bad, I've bought and stored some of those, too, but my "yokel" testing shows they aren't as good as what I recommended above. The best solution is to get a gun and practice enough so you put a round into the "computer room" of a bad guy. Hit the CNS, and the rest is academic. v/r Mike I have serious doubts to the HST getting deep enough https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 12:53:12 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 4/13/2023 6:09:38 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have serious doubts to the HST getting deep enough https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel Kind of what the "yokel" tests have shown as well. OP, I'd stick, and do stick, with a variation of the old FBI load--158gr LSWCHP with a velocity of 950-1100 FPS. Underwood and Buffalo Bore have standard and +p pressure loads that do that. That's what I have in my backup guns in my bedroom and house. |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 6:49:22 PM EDT
[#30]
And keeping in mind that the modern bonded-core bullets were not around when the “FBI” bullet was replaced with a different caliber altogether.
The 158 FBI load will still get the job done, albeit may over-penetrate. Choice is up to you. I don’t disregard the modern loads just because I haven’t seen an “organic gelatin” test. Just know that the bullets probably would penetrate a little less than what a clear gelatin test shows. Marksmanship is critical irrespective of everything else. With pistol caliber, anything that lands outside of the shirt pockets should be assumed to be inadequate during the time interval of a gunfight. Anything inside the shirt pockets will usually end the fight almost instantly. There is too much fretting about picking the perfect pistol ammo. Whatever you shoot accurately is always the best answer. |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 7:20:07 PM EDT
[#31]
A retired NYPD detective said that lead SWC +P put a lot of thugs under the grass, but required proper placement.
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Posted: 4/13/2023 7:32:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And keeping in mind that the modern bonded-core bullets were not around when the “FBI” bullet was replaced with a different caliber altogether. The 158 FBI load will still get the job done, albeit may over-penetrate. Choice is up to you. I don’t disregard the modern loads just because I haven’t seen an “organic gelatin” test. Just know that the bullets probably would penetrate a little less than what a clear gelatin test shows. Marksmanship is critical irrespective of everything else. With pistol caliber, anything that lands outside of the shirt pockets should be assumed to be inadequate during the time interval of a gunfight. Anything inside the shirt pockets will usually end the fight almost instantly. There is too much fretting about picking the perfect pistol ammo. Whatever you shoot accurately is always the best answer. Didn't the .38 +P FBI load utterly fail in the Miami shootout? Or was it just 9x19mm Silvertip HPs that didn't penetrate enough? |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 10:23:43 PM EDT
[#33]
My 442 gets 135gr +P Gold Dots.
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Posted: 4/13/2023 10:54:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't the .38 +P FBI load utterly fail in the Miami shootout? Or was it just 9x19mm Silvertip HPs that didn't penetrate enough? My recollection is they were using handguns against vehicles and body armor. None of the pistols were going to be very effective in that situation. .30 caliber rifle would have been a better choice. I still have a few rounds of Remington 158 SWCHP from my policing days in the 80’s. Got a taper barrel Model 10 too. I carry that for nostalgia sometimes.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/13/2023 11:13:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My recollection is they were using handguns against vehicles and body armor. None of the pistols were going to be very effective in that situation. .30 caliber rifle would have been a better choice. I still have a few rounds of Remington 158 SWCHP from my policing days in the 80’s. Got a taper barrel Model 10 too. I carry that for nostalgia sometimes. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/105614/0652F90E-8A03-4C80-89D3-CD3A165BF21F_jpe-2781600.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Didn't the .38 +P FBI load utterly fail in the Miami shootout? Or was it just 9x19mm Silvertip HPs that didn't penetrate enough? My recollection is they were using handguns against vehicles and body armor. None of the pistols were going to be very effective in that situation. .30 caliber rifle would have been a better choice. I still have a few rounds of Remington 158 SWCHP from my policing days in the 80’s. Got a taper barrel Model 10 too. I carry that for nostalgia sometimes. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/105614/0652F90E-8A03-4C80-89D3-CD3A165BF21F_jpe-2781600.JPG I don't think the BGs had body armor on that one, that was the Cali shootout. In Miami, wasn't it a 9x19mm Silvertip penetrated, expanded, and stopped on the sternum? I think some of the .38 +P hits were successful but it wasn't a shining victory. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 6:05:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't the .38 +P FBI load utterly fail in the Miami shootout? Or was it just 9x19mm Silvertip HPs that didn't penetrate enough? No. The hit from the FBI load caused a lethal injury to the bad guy, and according to the book by the pathologist whose name I forget, he was a dead man walking. The Miami Gunfight is often held up as a failure of ballistics, but, IMO, was more of a failure in tactics, techniques, and procedures. Kind of like Newhall in California. True, light for caliber 115gr 9mm rounds like the Winchester loads used in the fight underperformed, but the main failure was in TTP. (The entire RII protocol was bullshit, and that was looked at after the fight, but even those Silvertips delivered a punch that would have been ultimately fatal to the other bad guy). I agree with what someone posted above. Lots of graveyards have folks who were on the business end of FBI loads. And the +p loads from Buffalo Bore/Underwood are basically 357 Magnum light loads. Standard pressure LSWCHP loads from them are equivalent to '80s FBI loads. And, as someone else said, if you're using a J-Frame, practice so you can put lead into the bad guy's computer room, IE, the central nervous system. If you can't, and shooting small frame revolvers isn't easy, carry something you can shoot and hit the CNS. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 7:19:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Matix died after being shot six times.
Platt died after being shot twelve times. The bullet everyone likes to talk about was a 115-gr. 9mm Winchester Silvertip out of a 4-inch barrel that went through Platt’s right arm and right lung and ended up just short of his heart. It was not survivable and it would have stopped most people immediately, but he kept fighting while he bled out. Matix was killed by .38 Special +Ps to his back, and the fight ended when Platt was shot in the chest with a .38 Special +P that hit his spine and dropped him. They were all 158-gr. LSWCHP out of a 4-inch barrel. That gunfight motivated the FBI to make a lot of changes, and one of them was to come up with its ammo testing protocol. The 9mm and .38 Special bullets of the time could not meet their penetration requirements after passing through barriers simulating car doors and windshields, so the FBI switched calibers. They dropped revolvers because reloads under fire were problematic. Federal and Speer led the way and developed 9mm bullets that could, and the FBI switched back. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 9:31:25 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Matix died after being shot six times. Platt died after being shot twelve times. The bullet everyone likes to talk about was a 115-gr. 9mm Winchester Silvertip that went through Platt’s right arm and right lung and ended up just short of his heart. It was not survivable and it would have stopped most people immediately, but he kept fighting while he bled out. Matix was killed by .38 Special +Ps to his back, and the fight ended when Platt was shot in the chest with a .38 Special +P that hit his spine and dropped him. That gunfight motivated the FBI to make a lot of changes, and one of them was to come up with its ammo testing protocol. The 9mm and .38 Special bullets of the time could not meet their penetration requirements after passing through barriers simulating car doors and windshields, so the FBI switched calibers. They dropped revolvers because reloads under fire were problematic. Federal and Speer led the way and developed 9mm bullets that could, and the FBI switched back. The Silvertip stands out b/c it was a heavily marketed SD & police round of the day, so the failure was glaring. Sounds like the .38 +Ps did penetrate then, the biggest problem was pistol rounds vs rifle rounds, still a problem today. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 9:51:45 AM EDT
[#39]
I don't think it was really a failure of ammunition. It was mostly a failure of marksmanship. Eight agents were blazing away at two guys - six of those agents were gunning for one guy - and mostly not hitting them.
It's not right to judge them by what we now know, but they were not well-trained or well-prepared, either. They were brave, but not ready. If those agents could have a magic do-over, ammunition type would not be their primary concern. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 9:59:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:... pistol rounds vs rifle rounds, still a problem today. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 10:19:25 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No argument there, I'm sure the survivors spent many nights laying awake and thinking exactly that, but sometimes you gotta work with the tools you have. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:... pistol rounds vs rifle rounds, still a problem today. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. Agreed, hence my interest in 5.7x28mm, .22 TCM, 7.5x27mm FK, and light for caliber bullets in .357 SIG & 9x25mm Dillon. |
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Posted: 4/16/2023 12:14:15 PM EDT
[#42]
When reading details of the Miami shootout, no offense to the agents involved, it was a comedy of errors. Multiple things went wrong. I recall one comment that at least one agent had taken his gun out of the holster and stuck it under his leg while seated in the car, and a quick stop or collision sent the gun sailing and left him unarmed.
No long guns employed is probably the number one issue. The first strike silver tip 9mm that was a fatal wound, but some people continue to fight despite non survivable wounds. There are basically two types of “ stops” when shooting someone psychological stops - the “ oh my I have been shot” and person stops what they are doing, regardless of severity of wound And physiologic stops where the bullet hits something critical which causes incapacitation ( CNS hit) or rapid blood loss When I was in Iraq, I saw someone survive a torso hit from a 50 BMG, and another guy take multiple 7.62 nato rounds and stand there asking why we shot him People simply are going to have a variable unpredictable reaction to being shot, and this is a factor no ballistics research or testing can account for. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 12:51:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No argument there, I'm sure the survivors spent many nights laying awake and thinking exactly that, but sometimes you gotta work with the tools you have. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:... pistol rounds vs rifle rounds, still a problem today. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. Will we stop with this magic 2200fps myth |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 2:20:45 PM EDT
[#44]
OK
At what velocity does the degree of tissue damage escalate to a non-linear degree of destruction? I’ll allow that 2200 fps may not be a magical number in the real world, and bullet-design is surely a factor. But I’m not gonna discount raw velocity as being the major factor to consider in the severity of a gunshot wound. Let’s say something simple. Like a Remington .30 caliber Core-Lokt bullet. At what velocity threshold does that bullet make the wound look like hamburger as opposed to a nasty spear wound? Something very is clearly happening when that bullet is fired from a .300 Win. Mag. versus a 30-30. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 3:45:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Will we stop with this magic 2200fps myth Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted:... pistol rounds vs rifle rounds, still a problem today. No argument there, I'm sure the survivors spent many nights laying awake and thinking exactly that, but sometimes you gotta work with the tools you have. Human tissue is very elastic. Below a velocity threshold of about 2,200 FPS - which the FBI figured out while studying this fight - it just soaks up energy with a “temporary wound cavity”. In other words, at handgun velocities there won’t be massive tissue destruction outside of the actual path of the bullet. The crush cavity is what does the work. So with handguns we want adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible, and direct contact with vital organs. The engineering of the projectile trumps velocity, energy and caliber. Will we stop with this magic 2200fps myth Do we have better data on the creation of a large permanent wound cavity vs lower velocity crushed tissue wounds? |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 4:10:23 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP from Underwood---these. The +p version has slightly better performance, but for an older gun I'd stick with standard pressure. Here's a video that shows the Buffalo Bore versions being tested in gel--and I know his testing with clear gel and fiberboard or whatever isn't strictly scientific, but it is interesting to see. Buffalo Bore's stuff is the same as Underwood's but Underwood's is cheaper. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2skI sometimes carry their 150gr wadcutters, very easy shooting. Link here. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't the .38 +P FBI load utterly fail in the Miami shootout? Or was it just 9x19mm Silvertip HPs that didn't penetrate enough? The wounded agent killed that last gunman by crawling up to his car and shooting him with his 38SPL (loaded with Fed 147 +P+ iirc). Another agent lost his auto-pistol in the crash and had to resort to his ankle gun 38. I think him or another agent was wounded in the hand and was unable to reload his 38. I do not remember any hits with 38's other than the final shots to the perp's head. I would NOT want to face Platt & Madox (armed with a Mini14) with only a 38!!! edit: The agents did have long guns. A 12GA pump was used effectively but a little late in the shootout. They had MP5's locked safe in the trunk of at least one car. But shit happens fast in a gunfight. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 4:29:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The wounded agent killed that last gunman by crawling up to his car and shooting him with his 38SPL (loaded with Fed 147 +P+ iirc). ... I do not remember any hits with 38's other than the final shots to the perp's head... |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 6:19:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Will we stop with this magic 2200fps myth |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 6:50:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK At what velocity does the degree of tissue damage escalate to a non-linear degree of destruction? I’ll allow that 2200 fps may not be a magical number in the real world, and bullet-design is surely a factor. But I’m not gonna discount raw velocity as being the major factor to consider in the severity of a gunshot wound. Let’s say something simple. Like a Remington .30 caliber Core-Lokt bullet. At what velocity threshold does that bullet make the wound look like hamburger as opposed to a nasty spear wound? Something very is clearly happening when that bullet is fired from a .300 Win. Mag. versus a 30-30. It has more to do with bullet construction. A .30-30 bullet in a .300 win mag will probably fragment but may not penetrate the same as a .30-30. |
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